2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th!

[kodo]

I don't see any Wiseman's still in the playoffs. I see a few Okongwu's though.

Preach brother. I just hope he falls to us.

He should be there at 4. I really like him defensively. I see him as a perennial all NBA defensive team guy. But he can't shoot

I have very mixed feelings if Wiseman falls to us.

Yes it's always great that a top 2 guy fell to your team, but I would tear my hair out that we drafted a PF/C with no creation ability for 3 out of our 4 high picks.

[Dresden]

Traditional centers haven't been phased out of offenses because it's trendy or there just aren't any good ones anymore, it's because analytics have proven that it's just kind of a dumb idea to give them the ball a lot.

Dumping the ball to a center down low really doesn't result in any more efficient a shot attempt, but at the same time you are vastly downgrading the chances of an assist being generated, while also making a turnover more likely, and really just killing ball movement in general since the guy is often literally not even looking at one side of the court. I have absolutely no numbers to back this up, but I'm gonna assume that (likely proprietary) analytics we don't have access to would show that the assist and turnover rates of low post possessions is absolutely awful.

Maybe in the future there's some giant unholy Jokic/Shaq combo that breaks the whole league, but if that guy ever does show up, everybody will know it when the kid is 6 years old and they will have the hype of LeBron James+Andrew Luck+Tiger Woods+Bryce Harper+Justin Bieber combined.

The numbers have never shown that Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, etc. were inefficient. The problem came when you ran it through the average player in a league built around scoring inside.

Everyone had big 7 footers on their rosters to camp in the paint and others designed to stop them. Now teams aren’t investing in true bigs and sticking former 4s and even some wings at Center. Offense are pulling more guys further and further from the basket. That will adjust the equation and at some point it will become efficient again to post up against those smaller defenders/offenses.

Yeah, it's hard to imagine that if a Patrick Ewing were to show up in the nba today, a team wouldn't move towards a low post offense, and that Ewing would be just as valuable as he was in the 80's-90's. They would still use the 3 point shot, but would also feature Ewing a lot in the post, is my bet. Especially now with so few teams having a big guy that can defend really well. Deandre Ayton is about as close to that as we've seen in awhile, although he's not nearly as talented or dominant.

[Fastbrk4brkfast]

Preach brother. I just hope he falls to us.

He should be there at 4. I really like him defensively. I see him as a perennial all NBA defensive team guy. But he can't shoot

I have very mixed feelings if Wiseman falls to us.

Yes it's always great that a top 2 guy fell to your team, but I would tear my hair out that we drafted a PF/C with no creation ability for 3 out of our 4 high picks.

I meant Okongwu. I hope Okongwu falls to us. I actually hope Wiseman doesn't.

[Fastbrk4brkfast]

I don't see any Wiseman's still in the playoffs. I see a few Okongwu's though.

Preach brother. I just hope he falls to us.

He should be there at 4. I really like him defensively. I see him as a perennial all NBA defensive team guy. But he can't shoot

We don't need him to have 3-pt range yet. I think he'll develop it but right now we need him to rebound, generate extra possessions, and finish at a high % from foul line and in.

[drosereturn]

I don't see any Wiseman's still in the playoffs. I see a few Okongwu's though.

Which is why its wrong to just judge prospects just like he looks like another Whiteside, Gobert dying big.
He could easily be a Dwight Howard which you dont know. What we do know he is Dwight Howard level physical profile and athleticism.
Not trying to say Okongwu is a bust bc I am really high but just saying he is Draymond and Wiseman a bust is lazy analysis.

[drosereturn]

Yeah, when we are talking centers, context matters. The Dream, Admiral, Ewing and Shaq were completely different beasts that the guys nowadays. They were the alphas on their team, and played with aggression on both ends (sans Shaq). At their peaks they combined for 4-5 blocks + steals / game, while anchoring the D.

Then, there was also the fact that you couldn't guard them 1-on-1 or else they'd just destroy you. The numbers you see on bball reference are with them getting double teamed for most possessions every game. I remember watching enough games of where some of the bigs were not double-teamed to know they'd drop 40+ on your team if left alone.

Having a Dream or an Admiral was the equivalent of having a Gobert+ on D, and a Giannis-like player on O. Yeah, that kind of player would kick posteriors and probably be the best player in the NBA today, much like Giannis is.

P.S. The Admiral at his peak averaged 7 steals + blocks for a year . So did Hakeem . Pat Ewing was at 5, which would make him the best defensive anchor today, but he was the 3rd/4th best C defender of his time.

This. Easily an era of big man can come back but the reason traditional sucks now is Giannis is your best type and he wouldnt even be better than Dream or Admiral back in the day.

[MrSparkle]

I still think there's a realm of reason (particularly in this draft) where Wiseman is indeed the guy with the most impact/upside. Yes yes - I totally understand. There are only 2 superstar "true" centers in the last 10 years, and they are not considered top-5 players. We've established that centers basically lose playoff games. Yet they still kind of don't, if they can block and shoot while staying-in-their-lane. We've also established that there is no superstar in this draft, so you are drafting something between a bargain starter or low-tier all-star prospect.

Not entirely convinced that GSW is completely uninterested in him. Wiseman's shooting form is OK with 3P potential, and his combo of frame/speed/hops is elite as far as physical attributes go. They had a spot-minute starting center for all their chips: Bogut, Zaza - just saying, they could be smoke-screening to get MIN/#1 to not take him. Edwards might be the guy to take in theory, but he's got his own issues. He's talented but his shot doesn't seem good for the amount of bad pull-up shots he takes.

[Ugly Duckling]

Preach brother. I just hope he falls to us.

He should be there at 4. I really like him defensively. I see him as a perennial all NBA defensive team guy. But he can't shoot

We don't need him to have 3-pt range yet. I think he'll develop it but right now we need him to rebound, generate extra possessions, and finish at a high % from foul line and in.

Oh it was my understanding he had no range

[Pax for Prez]

Another Article (espn) saying Toppin being rated too high in mocks:

Who is the most overrated draft prospect?
The situation: Polling execs and scouts for overrated prospects is much easier, with multiple players at the top of draft boards getting votes.

League insiders' picks:

Dayton's Obi Toppin

Toppin was the most popular pick here. While insiders find him intriguing, they don't see the 22-year-old as a prospect who belongs at the top of the lottery.

"I think he's a good player and I like him and he had an unbelievable year, but this consensus top-five status he's obtained is weird to me," an Eastern Conference scout said.

"If Obi Toppin is gonna go in the top five, that's overrated," an Eastern Conference executive said.

"I don't know when I watch him that I'm convinced he can replicate what he's doing now in an NBA game," a Western Conference scout said. "I think he's a tweener."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29793884/nba-draft-buzz-league-insiders-warriors-trades-top-prospects

[TheFinishSniper]

I still think there's a realm of reason (particularly in this draft) where Wiseman is indeed the guy with the most impact/upside. Yes yes - I totally understand. There are only 2 superstar "true" centers in the last 10 years, and they are not considered top-5 players. We've established that centers basically lose playoff games. Yet they still kind of don't, if they can block and shoot while staying-in-their-lane. We've also established that there is no superstar in this draft, so you are drafting something between a bargain starter or low-tier all-star prospect.

Not entirely convinced that GSW is completely uninterested in him. Wiseman's shooting form is OK with 3P potential, and his combo of frame/speed/hops is elite as far as physical attributes go. They had a spot-minute starting center for all their chips: Bogut, Zaza - just saying, they could be smoke-screening to get MIN/#1 to not take him. Edwards might be the guy to take in theory, but he's got his own issues. He's talented but his shot doesn't seem good for the amount of bad pull-up shots he takes.

NBA didnt see dominating big for long time. But with Wiseman as prospect there is nothing suggesting he can be one. And I dont want him if he isnt one. Wasting time and high lottery picks on bigs is just disasterous and cancerous way to build any kind of franchise even bad one.

Wouldnt mind nothing if he is next of Admiral or Shaq type of player. Wouldnt mind Bulls building around C as long that player is looking to be dominating force. In that case there is no chance that even guy good as Lebron can stop that kind of player.

[cjbulls]

I still think there's a realm of reason (particularly in this draft) where Wiseman is indeed the guy with the most impact/upside. Yes yes - I totally understand. There are only 2 superstar "true" centers in the last 10 years, and they are not considered top-5 players. We've established that centers basically lose playoff games. Yet they still kind of don't, if they can block and shoot while staying-in-their-lane. We've also established that there is no superstar in this draft, so you are drafting something between a bargain starter or low-tier all-star prospect.

Not entirely convinced that GSW is completely uninterested in him. Wiseman's shooting form is OK with 3P potential, and his combo of frame/speed/hops is elite as far as physical attributes go. They had a spot-minute starting center for all their chips: Bogut, Zaza - just saying, they could be smoke-screening to get MIN/#1 to not take him. Edwards might be the guy to take in theory, but he's got his own issues. He's talented but his shot doesn't seem good for the amount of bad pull-up shots he takes.

NBA didnt see dominating big for long time. But with Wiseman as prospect there is nothing suggesting he can be one. And I dont want him if he isnt one. Wasting time and high lottery picks on bigs is just disasterous and cancerous way to build any kind of franchise even bad one.

Wouldnt mind nothing if he is next of Admiral or Shaq type of player. Wouldnt mind Bulls building around C as long that player is looking to be dominating force. In that case there is no chance that even guy good as Lebron can stop that kind of player.

Yes, but it's all against what backdrop. The rest of this class is weak. Let's say the draft goes something like Edwards, Avdija, Ball. Where does that leave the Bulls at 4? Hayes, Haliburton, Okungwu, Toppin? I have to be honest, I like those guys other than Toppin but they don't seem a cut above Wiseman.

I feel like I'm always advocating for Wiseman when in reality I'm not thrilled to grab him (happened with Reddish last year), but I do think the dislikes he gets on here pushes him into the underrated category.

Is Wiseman really a worse prospect than Mo Bamba? A guy who most Bulls fans were excited to try and grab, even trade up for, a few years back (hindsight bias aside). If not, why all the hate at 4 in a bad draft?

[TheFinishSniper]

Yes, but it's all against what backdrop. The rest of this class is weak. Let's say the draft goes something like Edwards, Avdija, Ball. Where does that leave the Bulls at 4? Hayes, Haliburton, Okungwu, Toppin? I have to be honest, I like those guys other than Toppin but they don't seem a cut above Wiseman.

I feel like I'm always advocating for Wiseman when in reality I'm not thrilled to grab him (happened with Reddish last year), but I do think the dislikes he gets on here pushes him into the underrated category.

Is Wiseman really a worse prospect than Mo Bamba? A guy who most Bulls fans were excited to try and grab, even trade up for, a few years back (hindsight bias aside). If not, why all the hate at 4 in a bad draft?

I disliked Bamba as prospect. Not exactly hated but didnt want him. Only bigs from that 2018 class I wanted was Jackson Jr. and Ayton. I wanted Luka. But we were really on that edge where it was getting WCJ, Mikal or taking chance on MPJ. And Bulls picked WCJ. Even WCJ looked more skillset ready than Bamba

[cjbulls]

Yes, but it's all against what backdrop. The rest of this class is weak. Let's say the draft goes something like Edwards, Avdija, Ball. Where does that leave the Bulls at 4? Hayes, Haliburton, Okungwu, Toppin? I have to be honest, I like those guys other than Toppin but they don't seem a cut above Wiseman.

I feel like I'm always advocating for Wiseman when in reality I'm not thrilled to grab him (happened with Reddish last year), but I do think the dislikes he gets on here pushes him into the underrated category.

Is Wiseman really a worse prospect than Mo Bamba? A guy who most Bulls fans were excited to try and grab, even trade up for, a few years back (hindsight bias aside). If not, why all the hate at 4 in a bad draft?

I disliked Bamba as prospect. Not exactly hated but didnt want him. Only bigs from that 2018 class I wanted was Jackson Jr. and Ayton. I wanted Luka. But we were really on that edge where it was getting WCJ, Mikal or taking chance on MPJ. And Bulls picked WCJ. Even WCJ looked more skillset ready than Bamba

I see, but that wasn't really my point to evaluate whether you scouted Bamba properly. It was just to say Wiseman is in the same ballpark, and likely a better prospect than Bamba who went 6th (a spot that fit his value) in a very good draft. So I am surprised to see so many dismiss him now. At best, the other Bulls options at 4 will be on the same tier as Wiseman, which means we shouldn't be collapsing in the streets upset about the pick.

[Fastbrk4brkfast]

Another Article (espn) saying Toppin being rated too high in mocks:

Who is the most overrated draft prospect?
The situation: Polling execs and scouts for overrated prospects is much easier, with multiple players at the top of draft boards getting votes.

League insiders' picks:

Dayton's Obi Toppin

Toppin was the most popular pick here. While insiders find him intriguing, they don't see the 22-year-old as a prospect who belongs at the top of the lottery.

"I think he's a good player and I like him and he had an unbelievable year, but this consensus top-five status he's obtained is weird to me," an Eastern Conference scout said.

"If Obi Toppin is gonna go in the top five, that's overrated," an Eastern Conference executive said.

"I don't know when I watch him that I'm convinced he can replicate what he's doing now in an NBA game," a Western Conference scout said. "I think he's a tweener."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29793884/nba-draft-buzz-league-insiders-warriors-trades-top-prospects

Toppin was proficient in the half-court but one thing I've wondered about him is he got a lot of his points leaking out in transition and beating his man to the rim. I'm not sure if he'll be able to do that as much in the NBA.

[Rose2Boozer]

Another Article (espn) saying Toppin being rated too high in mocks:

Who is the most overrated draft prospect?
The situation: Polling execs and scouts for overrated prospects is much easier, with multiple players at the top of draft boards getting votes.

League insiders' picks:

Dayton's Obi Toppin

Toppin was the most popular pick here. While insiders find him intriguing, they don't see the 22-year-old as a prospect who belongs at the top of the lottery.

"I think he's a good player and I like him and he had an unbelievable year, but this consensus top-five status he's obtained is weird to me," an Eastern Conference scout said.

"If Obi Toppin is gonna go in the top five, that's overrated," an Eastern Conference executive said.

"I don't know when I watch him that I'm convinced he can replicate what he's doing now in an NBA game," a Western Conference scout said. "I think he's a tweener."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29793884/nba-draft-buzz-league-insiders-warriors-trades-top-prospects

I wholeheartedly agree with those guys. Personally, I think Precious Achiuwa is a better prospect. Toppin and Achiuwa will more than likely score the same way in the pros, while Achiuwa gives your team better rebounding and defense. Not to mention, Precious Achiuwa is younger.

[PlayerUp]

Only a very small % want Obi Toppin at #4.

- Older prospect
- Lower ceiling
- Defensive struggles
- Questionable impact at next level
- Guard/Wing more important spots we need to upgrade

[Fastbrk4brkfast]

He should be there at 4. I really like him defensively. I see him as a perennial all NBA defensive team guy. But he can't shoot

We don't need him to have 3-pt range yet. I think he'll develop it but right now we need him to rebound, generate extra possessions, and finish at a high % from foul line and in.

Oh it was my understanding he had no range

Thing with him is when he catches outside the paint his instinct is to put the ball on the floor to generate a better shot and draw contact. There's very little footage of him just catching and popping a jumper. Still he shot 72% from the line and almost a quarter of his points came from there. So when I say he might have some range I'm talking Rolo range here.

Watch on YouTube

[Rose2Boozer]

An interesting watch for Onyeka Okongwu fans

Watch on YouTube

[BigUps]

I’m still learning about each prospect, but it’s always fun putting out your big board a few times before the draft. I’m sure this will shuffle around a little, but this where I’m at as of now.

1. Edwards
2. Avdija
3. Vassel
4. Toppin
5. Ball
6. Hayes
7. Wiseman

[Fastbrk4brkfast]

An interesting watch for Onyeka Okongwu fans

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for finding the timestamp where they talk shooting.