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2020 Draft

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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1201 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:46 pm

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:... the precedent is the Kings trade a few years ago when they moved back from 10 to get 15 & 20 (They picked up Giles @ 20). To me, that means 9 = 14 + 20-22... but they only have 26, so they make up the value difference with 30.

That was a steal, yes, an astonishingly bad move by Neil Olshey -- who has also made some terrific moves (& still has his job). & a great one by Sac'to -- one of only a few!

But... it's a one-off. Show me another equivalent.

Obviously, there's no official chart of the relative value of draft picks. & of course, individual circumstances can dictate all kinds of individual cases. But here are some graphs to illustrate my point: http://nbasense.com/draft-pick-trade-value/compare-charts.

Of these, only one (Restifo's 2016 chart) would accommodate a trade of 9 for 14 & 26 -- that's because his view of a slow decline from 1 to 10 is unrealistic (using his chart you should be able to give the #5 & #22 picks for the #1 pick -- no).

The most recent of these work-ups is Pelton's 2d version: http://nbasense.com/draft-pick-trade-value/2/kevin-pelton-2.

Of course, how badly the party moving up (usually) wants the guy at the higher pick can distort values in individual cases. If there's someone Boston must must have, then perhaps they'd give the #26 to move up 5 places. But... I doubt it. & 14,26 & 30 to move up 5 places?

Worth noting: one thing in our favor if we did negotiate to trade down with Boston is that they have 4 picks in the draft overall. They won't want 4 rookies.

I can also imagine giving our #9 & #37 for their #14, #26 & #47. In this case too they might well prefer to have 1 fewer rookie.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1202 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:16 pm

pcbothwel wrote:You pretty much nailed it... I have Haliburton, Vassell, Okongwu, and Poku all in the same tier... so even if I like A a little more than B, it’s all the same valuation. ...

& this takes into account all the differing risk factors, I assume -- i.e., essentially, that Poku comes with far greater risk than any of those other 3 guys? &, therefore, in compensation, he also has a far higher upside.

If that's the case, & given that Poku will certainly be available at a lower pick than H, V & O, one would certainly trade down.

How not? For example, why wouldn't you at least say to the Suns, "we'll give you our #9 for your #10, & all we want is your R2 pick in 202X" -- i.e. some trivial compensation.

If you felt confident (as I think one should) that Poku would be there at #14, then why would you not trade #9 to Boston for #14 & #30. You get the same guy plus you also get the #30 pick.

pcbothwel wrote:...It comes down to what we value:
Do we want Malcom Brogdan / Lonzo Ball (Haliburton)?...
Do we want Mikal Bridges / Otto / Danny Green / Josh Richardson (Vassell)?…
Do we want Montrez Harrell / Richaun Holmes / Brandon Clarke (with Bam upside)? …
Or… do we make the upside play with Poku? ...

I think that's all entirely irrelevant.

Draft picks are all the league gives you for free. The goal -- the only goal! -- should be to get the greatest possible overall value out of those picks. Period.

It matters not at all what positions the guys you choose play. That's what trades are for.

Just come out of the draft with the maximum possible overall player-value.

pcbothwel wrote:...I would be happy with either (i.e. any 1) of the 4 though.

If you extract less value from the draft than you could have extracted, how can you be happy?

If Poku & e.g. Vassell are equivalent overall in value, then Poku plus, say, Xavier Tillman is more valuable than Vassell alone. Duh.

IOW, if you turn down 14 +30 for 9, you're not doing your job. No?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1203 » by pcbothwel » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:28 pm

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:You pretty much nailed it... I have Haliburton, Vassell, Okongwu, and Poku all in the same tier... so even if I like A a little more than B, it’s all the same valuation. ...

& this takes into account all the differing risk factors, I assume -- i.e., essentially, that Poku comes with far greater risk than any of those other 3 guys? &, therefore, in compensation, he also has a far higher upside.

If that's the case, & given that Poku will certainly be available at a lower pick than H, V & O, one would certainly trade down.

How not? For example, why wouldn't you at least say to the Suns, "we'll give you our #9 for your #10, & all we want is your R2 pick in 202X" -- i.e. some trivial compensation.

If you felt confident (as I think one should) that Poku would be there at #14, then why would you not trade #9 to Boston for #14 & #30. You get the same guy plus you also get the #30 pick.

pcbothwel wrote:...It comes down to what we value:
Do we want Malcom Brogdan / Lonzo Ball (Haliburton)?...
Do we want Mikal Bridges / Otto / Danny Green / Josh Richardson (Vassell)?…
Do we want Montrez Harrell / Richaun Holmes / Brandon Clarke (with Bam upside)? …
Or… do we make the upside play with Poku? ...

I think that's all entirely irrelevant.

Draft picks are all the league gives you for free. The goal -- the only goal! -- should be to get the greatest possible overall value out of those picks. Period.

It matters not at all what positions the guys you choose play. That's what trades are for.

Just come out of the draft with the maximum possible overall player-value.

pcbothwel wrote:...I would be happy with either (i.e. any 1) of the 4 though.

If you extract less value from the draft than you could have extracted, how can you be happy?

If Poku & e.g. Vassell are equivalent overall in value, then Poku plus, say, Xavier Tillman is more valuable than Vassell alone. Duh.

IOW, if you turn down 14 +30 for 9, you're not doing your job. No?


But you are operating as a Monday Morning QB. I.E. If Player A ends up better than Player B, then you should take Player A... Well, duh. Im saying, based on my evaluation, you can make a strong argument for any of the 4 and I trust the paid professionals to make that final decision.

As for the trade, I feel like you are doing the same thing. I *BELIEVE* Poku would be there at 14, but if he gets picked 10-13, then what? All 4 players I mentioned will be gone by 14 and then you are reaching for Bey, Nesmith, Smith, etc.

Also... value matters. You seem pretty sure that you would build a better team by getting picks 28, 29, and 30 than say... pick 5 every year... and I dont necessarily disagree with you.
But no sane team would trade pick 5 for those 3 picks.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1204 » by JAR69 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:33 pm

I'm no draft expert, but one player who I think might be a good fit in a trade-down scenario is Isaiah Steward of Washington. Slightly short but strong center who plays with immense passion, blocks shots, sets solid picks, and has shooting potential (77.4% from the line). Plenty of length despite his height - 7' 4" wingspan in high school. Not a great athlete, but leaves it all out there. Lunch bucket guy. He outplayed Okongwu when they were matched up: https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/analyzing-isaiah-stewart-jaden-mcdaniels-and-onyeka-okongwu/. And has an excellent showing against Arizona: https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/observations-on-josh-green-isaiah-stewart-and-nico-mannion/

Some scouting reports:
https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/isaiah-stewart-scouting-report/
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaiah-stewart/
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1205 » by Dark Faze » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:01 pm

I'm trying to figure out why Nesmith is getting slept on. He checks almost every box. Size, defined role with great potential to expand on that role, elite shooting, great off ball movement. What's the issue?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1206 » by pcbothwel » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:23 pm

Dark Faze wrote:I'm trying to figure out why Nesmith is getting slept on. He checks almost every box. Size, defined role with great potential to expand on that role, elite shooting, great off ball movement. What's the issue?


One concern I would have is that he has one skill set (Shooting 3's) that sets him apart and nothing else. Now, that skill is so valuable that it could suffice, but I suggest everyone take a deeper look. Last year on almost twice as many 3PA he only shot 33%, which is why you need to scout him more closely with how hot a was this year in a much smaller sample size.

I like his feet and ability to move without the ball, but his shot is not particularly quick and there is something about the way he shoots and the ball coming off his hand that just seems...off.
Its like a push shot that appears a bit flat.
I guess my point is, if he simply ends up a 37-38% 3 point shooter with no ability to create for himself or others along with average - below average defense and twice as many turnovers than assist, then how is he worth a lotto pick?

Just playing devils advocate.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1207 » by payitforward » Fri Sep 4, 2020 7:50 pm

JAR69 wrote:I'm no draft expert, but one player who I think might be a good fit in a trade-down scenario is Isaiah Steward of Washington. Slightly short but strong center who plays with immense passion, blocks shots, sets solid picks, and has shooting potential (77.4% from the line). Plenty of length despite his height - 7' 4" wingspan in high school. Not a great athlete, but leaves it all out there. Lunch bucket guy. He outplayed Okongwu when they were matched up: https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/analyzing-isaiah-stewart-jaden-mcdaniels-and-onyeka-okongwu/. And has an excellent showing against Arizona: https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/observations-on-josh-green-isaiah-stewart-and-nico-mannion/

Some scouting reports:
https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/isaiah-stewart-scouting-report/
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaiah-stewart/

No one responded to this.

Of course, everything would depend on where such a trade-down landed us -- Stewart might be a reach w/ one of our picks and/or he might be gone with the other (assuming we traded our #9 for 2 lower R1 picks).

For example, I'd have trouble rating Isaiah Stewart above Jalen Smith. What about you?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1208 » by payitforward » Fri Sep 4, 2020 7:56 pm

Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1209 » by JAR69 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:15 pm

payitforward wrote:
JAR69 wrote:I'm no draft expert, but one player who I think might be a good fit in a trade-down scenario is Isaiah Steward of Washington. Slightly short but strong center who plays with immense passion, blocks shots, sets solid picks, and has shooting potential (77.4% from the line). Plenty of length despite his height - 7' 4" wingspan in high school. Not a great athlete, but leaves it all out there. Lunch bucket guy. He outplayed Okongwu when they were matched up: https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/analyzing-isaiah-stewart-jaden-mcdaniels-and-onyeka-okongwu/. And has an excellent showing against Arizona: https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/observations-on-josh-green-isaiah-stewart-and-nico-mannion/

Some scouting reports:
https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/isaiah-stewart-scouting-report/
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaiah-stewart/

No one responded to this.

Of course, everything would depend on where such a trade-down landed us -- Stewart might be a reach w/ one of our picks and/or he might be gone with the other (assuming we traded our #9 for 2 lower R1 picks).

For example, I'd have trouble rating Isaiah Stewart above Jalen Smith. What about you?


Based on what I've seen - and I'll admit it isn't a lot - I'd rate Stewart a smidge higher than Smith, but it is close. In some ways, it depends on what you are looking for.

There is a lot to like about Smith, but I worry that he doesn't have the physical tools to defend in the NBA. He always strikes me a bit stiff - almost like a guy much taller, like Tacko Fall. So there is a chance he won't be big enough to defend centers and PFs will blow by him. Stewart has his own physical limitations. Not really a below the rim player, but not much above it, either. I'm looking at Stewart as having more upside than Smith, but again it is close. I can see Stewart developing range, and that could go nicely with his body type.

As many have said in many places, such as the free agency thread, we are desperate for defense in the middle. A strong back line unlocks so much else defensively - it allows guards and wings to gamble more, and forgives the mistakes of our younger players. I've always really liked Bryant (I'm confident I was the first person on this board to propose trading for him), but he isn't likely to turn into an anchor in the middle.

So, for me, what I'm looking for if we are drafting a center is defense, rebounding, and pick-setting. (Same for free agents.) Stewart seems likely to be better in those categories. That said, I was expecting Stewart's rebounding numbers to be better than Smith's, but they weren't last year. Though Stewart's freshman year numbers are better than Smith's were.

All that said, I agree that where we trade down would be key for drafting Stewart. Would I take him at 26 if we got Boston's pick? Yes, if he were available and depending on who else is left. If Smith were still on the board, too? Probably, but that's in part because I don't know exactly where Smith fits if we resign Bertans.

In the end, you may be right that Stewart would fall between picks we could get in a trade down. But I love his grit and effort, and would be happy to snag him if he fell.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1210 » by pcbothwel » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:21 pm

payitforward wrote:Of course, everything would depend on where such a trade-down landed us -- Stewart might be a reach w/ one of our picks and/or he might be gone with the other (assuming we traded our #9 for 2 lower R1 picks).

For example, I'd have trouble rating Isaiah Stewart above Jalen Smith. What about you?


I appreciate his motor and strength, but thats really how he was able to look so good in college. I have serious concerns about a number of things. 1) Shooting: He has a slight hitch in his shot, but im more worried about his feet. He feet always seem...jumbled and indecisive. He hits FTs at a solid percentage, but I have concerns as to him stretching that out. 2) Clumsy: As I mentioned with my first point, his feet/coordination problems in his lower body really show offensively as he relies on his motor and strength too much and just falls into people, picking up charges and traveling. 3) Athleticism: This becomes quite apparent in the open space under the basket. He'll get two feet under him and go in for a "Statement" dunk, and barely get off the ground.
It worries me when prospects look like the Thibs Bulls. A team that killed you in the regular season, but couldnt turn it up a notch in the playoffs because they always gave 110% and so there was no extra level. I see the same in Stewart in which he collects hustle stats that look good, but I dont see projecting that well to the NBA.

Again, I love his motor and think he may be worth a late 1st, but his bully ball style may not work at the next level and im not sure he as the tools to expand... he may just be a dinosaur. Also, this year appears to have a solid group of bigs in the same range that appear to be better prospects in Oturu, Smith, and Tillman.

payitforward wrote:Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?


I doubt you care about my thoughts because you've heard them already... :wink:
But I have Hayes and Vassell above Nesmith... and all three above Bey and Williams.
My asterisk on Hayes is simple though and only true scouts that really dig in will know... He is ABSURDLY left hand dominant, and while his passing and shot creation his elite for his age, he shot isnt there yet and he doesnt project well off the ball. Meaning, He is either a better version of D'Angelo Russell, a Lou Will type 6th man, or back in Europe.

If your skill set/Archetype is Lead Guard, but your skill level isnt there... its hard to find a place in the modern NBA.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1211 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 4, 2020 11:27 pm

payitforward wrote:Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?


Hayes.
Hayes' youth and IQ remind me of the PG version of rookie Brad Beal. He has a ways to go but is quickly improving. Has high level experience and is a lifer in the game. His athleticism isn't off the charts, but his smarts are. I used to track Euro players, but life happens, now I rely on scouts and stats. Still it sounds from Euroscouts that he is swiftly adding pieces to his game, increasing efficiency and shot variety while carrying an increasing workload. That's a very good sign. If he can continue that trend then good things follow. Aside from IQ there is nothing he does that is dominant or projects to be at the NBA level. But smarts are as much a part of talent as athleticism, and to be advanced this early suggests good things if he lands in the right environment to develop. Cool headed, unrattled, while playing against grown professionals. Do I love the pick? Not yet, but he is a solid back up plan as a PG of the future. Game manager in that role, not deadly mismatch. A plus for the team. Not a game changer. But a good fit if we are looking for smart players who love a team game. And with early wisdom who knows what his ultimate upside is. With a good support system, and coaching.

Halliburton.
Wish I could get him on a trade down. Upside is limited, but he's fun to watch and is an ideal 3rd guard who would play well in relief of either Wall or Beal. Defense, smarts, oddball three that has deep range, nifty passes with plenty of sauce.

Vassell.
Of the listed players I think this is my guy. He has a ready NBA role as a long skilled active perimeter defender who hustles all game long and can hit a 3. He fits next to both Brad and John and improves the defense of both.

The others. Nothing jumped out for me watching them. Functional, some skills, they have a role, but I didn't get excited in watching them.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1212 » by payitforward » Sat Sep 5, 2020 2:41 pm

JAR69 wrote:...I've always really liked Bryant (I'm confident I was the first person on this board to propose trading for him)....

(I'm curious about this -- will move it to his thread & inquire as to details....)
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1213 » by DCZards » Sat Sep 5, 2020 4:33 pm

payitforward wrote:Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?

Of the players on your list of those likely to be there at 9, I've get the best vibe about Vassell. His D, 3pt shooting and athleticism should transfer easily to the NBA. He'll contribute right away, which is something I believe the Zards will be looking for in this year's draft.

Bey may be the sleeper in this group. He gets downgraded because he lacks the explosion and athleticism of a Vassell, but Bey is a very good defender and an outstanding 3pt shooter.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1214 » by Dat2U » Sat Sep 5, 2020 4:49 pm

payitforward wrote:Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?


I like Killian Hayes & Aaron Nesmith. Hayes skill level and facilitation abilities are impressive for his age. Nesmith appears to be the shooter in the draft and I second the notion he is getting slept on. Bey appears to be a solid role player.

I'm not fan of either Vassell or Williams. Especially Vassell tho. I think he struggles mightly to score at the NBA level.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1215 » by Dat2U » Sat Sep 5, 2020 4:51 pm

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?

Of the players on your list of those likely to be there at 9, I've get the best vibe about Vassell. His D, 3pt shooting and athleticism should transfer easily to the NBA. He'll contribute right away, which is something I believe the Zards will be looking for in this year's draft.

Bey may be the sleeper in this group. He gets downgraded because he lacks the explosion and athleticism of a Vassell, but Bey is a very good defender and an outstanding 3pt shooter.


Vassell is weak, has a slow release and does nothing off the dribble. I see high bust potential.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1216 » by dckingsfan » Sat Sep 5, 2020 10:05 pm

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:Looking at some recent mocks, I realized that the rise of Obi Toppin & Isaac Okoro in recent iterations suggests an interesting possibility for us: it might well be that Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Aaron Nesmith, Saddiq Bey & Patrick Williams might all be on the board when we pick at #9. All wings that a lot of people like. & at least a few of them are well liked here.

Who would you pick?


I like Killian Hayes & Aaron Nesmith. Hayes skill level and facilitation abilities are impressive for his age. Nesmith appears to be the shooter in the draft and I second the notion he is getting slept on. Bey appears to be a solid role player.

I'm not fan of either Vassell or Williams. Especially Vassell tho. I think he struggles mightly to score at the NBA level.

If Hayes and Nesmith were exactly equal I would choose Nesmith for fit. I worry about Nesmith's feet.

I worry about Hayes guarding PGs in the NBA, worry it will be a long-time until he gets a 3 point shot and worry he will be lost on the bench for quite some time.

But this is the 9th pick :D
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1217 » by DCZards » Sun Sep 6, 2020 3:22 am

Dat2U wrote:
DCZards wrote:Of the players on your list of those likely to be there at 9, I've get the best vibe about Vassell. His D, 3pt shooting and athleticism should transfer easily to the NBA. He'll contribute right away, which is something I believe the Zards will be looking for in this year's draft.

Bey may be the sleeper in this group. He gets downgraded because he lacks the explosion and athleticism of a Vassell, but Bey is a very good defender and an outstanding 3pt shooter.


Vassell is weak, has a slow release and does nothing off the dribble. I see high bust potential.

I agree that Vassell has to show more offensive versatility, especially off the dribble.

Here’s what the scouts at The Stepien say about Vassell’s shooting release. The quick release is also what I’ve observed.
Legitimate above-the-head release on his jumpshot with a high trajectory. Shows great wrist involvement and has a quick release. Vassell demonstrates solid footwork and preemptive rhythmic adjustments to optimize fluidity in C&S situations, where he possesses distinctly natural shooting ability.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1218 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:22 am

:)
(A couple of months after I went off to college as a Freshman long long ago, I returned home for my first visit. As I walked through the door my Mother cried out "he's lost weight!" while at the very same instant, standing next to her, my Aunt cried out "he's gained weight!"
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1219 » by Shoe » Tue Sep 8, 2020 5:42 pm

If Sheppard is focused on iso players there could be an unexpected pick like Hachimura. I don't see any player that jumps out. The value at 9 appears to be a rotation defender like Okongwu, Achiuwa, Vassell.

If there is an unexpected pick I could see Maxey being it. There's been a solid run of late lottery Kentucky guards - Herro, SGA, Murray, Booker(Knight, Monk the exceptions). Maxey shot 83% on a respectable free throw rate.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1220 » by pcbothwel » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:24 pm

Shoe wrote:If Sheppard is focused on iso players there could be an unexpected pick like Hachimura. I don't see any player that jumps out. The value at 9 appears to be a rotation defender like Okongwu, Achiuwa, Vassell.

If there is an unexpected pick I could see Maxey being it. There's been a solid run of late lottery Kentucky guards - Herro, SGA, Murray, Booker(Knight, Monk the exceptions). Maxey shot 83% on a respectable free throw rate.


I've been a proponent of Maxey for a while. I love his shiftiness, footwork, and all around offensive arsenal while being a above average defender that always gives effort.
I think he is Cory Joseph if his offensive game stagnates... but he could be Lou Williams and thats where he gets very interesting outside the top 10

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