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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th!

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1661 » by Ugly Duckling » Fri Sep 4, 2020 7:02 pm

Fastbrk4brkfast wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
Fastbrk4brkfast wrote:
Thing with him is when he catches outside the paint his instinct is to put the ball on the floor to generate a better shot and draw contact. There's very little footage of him just catching and popping a jumper. Still he shot 72% from the line and almost a quarter of his points came from there. So when I say he might have some range I'm talking Rolo range here.



Hmm his form isn't that bad. If Arturas was somehow able to gauge that he could develop an outside shot, then maybe it's a risk worth taking. I was going off of the limited tape I've seen of him and analysts saying he can't shoot. The reason I'm still kind of hestitant is because a guy who can't knock down an open 3 is now a liability, because defenders can sag off him and the floor isn't as spread out as it should be. That being said, if he develops a 3 ball, he could wind up being the best player in this draft. The other thing is his handles aren't that good and I see him as purely a C in today's game. We already have a pretty good one in WCJ. One who can play D and shoot. I'd still go with someone like Toppin at 4


I see him as a 4 because he's a much more viable perimeter defender than any of our current bigs. Whether he's a 4 or 5 isn't as important as the fact that he won't get exposed on switches. I also see him as younger and more coachable than Toppin. Not like Toppin is a locker room cancer but his game pretty much is what it is at this point. Okongwu is a guy who can grow and develop in the direction the team needs him to.


Toppin made a huge jump from yr 1 to yr 2 (last yr). Just because he's 22 doesn't mean he's done improving. There are many players who start getting better around that age. You're right about Okongwu's position not mattering on defense, but we wouldn't be able to put Wendell and him out there together. Like I said, I see him as a perennial all NBA defensive team guy, which makes him a lottery pick. 4 is just too high for guy with such a big question mark offensively. Now if he had handles and vision like Ben Simmons, that'd be a different story altogether
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1662 » by bennjuiced34 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 7:29 pm

I think Okongwu is the best big in the draft. Less projection than Wiseman.

But I wouldn't take Okongwu at 4. 1) No more bigs 2) Try to trade down if he's BPA

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1663 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:36 pm

Fastbrk4brkfast wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
Fastbrk4brkfast wrote:
Thing with him is when he catches outside the paint his instinct is to put the ball on the floor to generate a better shot and draw contact. There's very little footage of him just catching and popping a jumper. Still he shot 72% from the line and almost a quarter of his points came from there. So when I say he might have some range I'm talking Rolo range here.



Hmm his form isn't that bad. If Arturas was somehow able to gauge that he could develop an outside shot, then maybe it's a risk worth taking. I was going off of the limited tape I've seen of him and analysts saying he can't shoot. The reason I'm still kind of hestitant is because a guy who can't knock down an open 3 is now a liability, because defenders can sag off him and the floor isn't as spread out as it should be. That being said, if he develops a 3 ball, he could wind up being the best player in this draft. The other thing is his handles aren't that good and I see him as purely a C in today's game. We already have a pretty good one in WCJ. One who can play D and shoot. I'd still go with someone like Toppin at 4


I see him as a 4 because he's a much more viable perimeter defender than any of our current bigs. Whether he's a 4 or 5 isn't as important as the fact that he won't get exposed on switches. I also see him as younger and more coachable than Toppin. Not like Toppin is a locker room cancer but his game pretty much is what it is at this point. Okongwu is a guy who can grow and develop in the direction the team needs him to.


Okongwu is a beast.

He's going to be the best pro off that Chino HS team.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1664 » by PaKii94 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 9:01 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Vassell is Mikal Bridges without the freakish wingspan and also with a worse college shooting profile due to FT%.


Why tf would you use his ft% to judge his shooting and not his shooting itself?

His overall efficiency is lower than bridges because he has a bit more of a mid range game. Also mikal as I put in my post before is a legit player and will be an all defense contender soon. Vassell projects to be a better than him.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1665 » by TheSuzerain » Fri Sep 4, 2020 9:11 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Vassell is Mikal Bridges without the freakish wingspan and also with a worse college shooting profile due to FT%.


Why tf would you use his ft% to judge his shooting and not his shooting itself?

His overall efficiency is lower than bridges because he has a bit more of a mid range game. Also mikal as I put in my post before is a legit player and will be an all defense contender soon. Vassell projects to be a better than him.

Free throw shooting is shooting and has a great track record of showing someone's true shooting ability (e.g. Tyler Herro, Justice Winslow, Josh Jackson).

3-pt stats in college can be really noisy unless we're talking really high volume. And Vassell certainly wasn't a high-volume shooter from 3.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1666 » by Chi town » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:00 pm

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1667 » by MGB8 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:09 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Vassell is Mikal Bridges without the freakish wingspan and also with a worse college shooting profile due to FT%.


Why tf would you use his ft% to judge his shooting and not his shooting itself?

His overall efficiency is lower than bridges because he has a bit more of a mid range game. Also mikal as I put in my post before is a legit player and will be an all defense contender soon. Vassell projects to be a better than him.

Free throw shooting is shooting and has a great track record of showing someone's true shooting ability (e.g. Tyler Herro, Justice Winslow, Josh Jackson).

3-pt stats in college can be really noisy unless we're talking really high volume. And Vassell certainly wasn't a high-volume shooter from 3.


3.5 3pa per game isn’t exactly low volume. The 74% ft rate is a bit of a flag though.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1668 » by sco » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:16 am


I wasn't anti-Deni but after reading this, I am now. Let me summarize:

Some people don't want the Bulls to draft Deni because he can't shoot 3's - Yes he can! So there!

Anyway, I think the biggest issues I have with him is that he has only played well against very weak competition, he doesn't have a left hand and he seems like a tweener - too slow to guard 3's and to weak to guard 4's.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1669 » by PlayerUp » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:23 am

sco wrote:

I wasn't anti-Deni but after reading this, I am now. Let me summarize:

Some people don't want the Bulls to draft Deni because he can't shoot 3's - Yes he can! So there!

Anyway, I think the biggest issues I have with him is that he has only played well against very weak competition, he doesn't have a left hand and he seems like a tweener - too slow to guard 3's and to weak to guard 4's.


Yes the #1 complaint with Deni is his shooting.

However shooting is the one skill that can rapidly improve at the NBA level. OG Anunoby for example was a terrible shooter in college and within 3 seasons has transformed himself into a 39% 3PT shooter on decent volume winning a clutch 3PT shot in Game 3 yesterday. If we believe we can improve Deni shooting, then we shouldn't be worried. Also Deni can show everyone an improved shot during predraft workouts. Overall from what I have seen, Deni has a good form and smart IQ players find a way to develop their shot overtime. It shouldn't be a concern.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1670 » by Rose2Boozer » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:26 am



Deni Avdija is pretty much the love what Luka Doncic is doing, so you look at Deni with dreamy eyes. Those guys are not in the same league. If Avdija had a tight handle I'd be more than happy with him, but he doesn't. He'll probably struggle on the perimeter and then get locked into the power forward position. At this point, I like Jaden McDaniels more than Deni Avdija. I have more confidence in McDaniels' ability to consistently create offense for himself.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1671 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:48 am

Rose2Boozer wrote:


Deni Avdija is pretty much the love what Luka Doncic is doing, so you look at Deni with dreamy eyes. Those guys are not in the same league. If Avdija had a tight handle I'd be more than happy with him, but he doesn't. He'll probably struggle on the perimeter and then get locked into the power forward position. At this point, I like Jaden McDaniels more than Deni Avdija. I have more confidence in McDaniels' ability to consistently create offense for himself.


Noted.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1672 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:50 am

PlayerUp wrote:
sco wrote:

I wasn't anti-Deni but after reading this, I am now. Let me summarize:

Some people don't want the Bulls to draft Deni because he can't shoot 3's - Yes he can! So there!

Anyway, I think the biggest issues I have with him is that he has only played well against very weak competition, he doesn't have a left hand and he seems like a tweener - too slow to guard 3's and to weak to guard 4's.


Yes the #1 complaint with Deni is his shooting.

However shooting is the one skill that can rapidly improve at the NBA level. OG Anunoby for example was a terrible shooter in college and within 3 seasons has transformed himself into a 39% 3PT shooter on decent volume winning a clutch 3PT shot in Game 3 yesterday. If we believe we can improve Deni shooting, then we shouldn't be worried. Also Deni can show everyone an improved shot during predraft workouts. Overall from what I have seen, Deni has a good form and smart IQ players find a way to develop their shot overtime. It shouldn't be a concern.


Hmm... wish we had a stat to measure IQ.

Can you list some examples of high IQ players that were bad shooters that improved? OG and who else. BTW as a Hoosier alum I love OG and wanted him bad at the draft.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1673 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:55 am

sco wrote:

I wasn't anti-Deni but after reading this, I am now. Let me summarize:

Some people don't want the Bulls to draft Deni because he can't shoot 3's - Yes he can! So there!

Anyway, I think the biggest issues I have with him is that he has only played well against very weak competition, he doesn't have a left hand and he seems like a tweener - too slow to guard 3's and to weak to guard 4's.


Good showing with bad competition is valid and a good point. Him being one of 3 rookies in EuroLeague and being on their version of the rookie team says something.

JMO PF is dead. Best 4s are 3s. You play two SFs to win. That’s why I’m happy to trade Lauri for a wing.

I think Deni can play both spots. His left hand does suck. He won’t need it that much with his IQ and ability to create space with his body.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1674 » by Chicagoat » Sat Sep 5, 2020 1:20 am

Deni has a few red flags. Like him being a master of none and having a bad FT% on a large sample size. Historically speaking, being a good FT shooter is a metric to see if their shooting will translate to the NBA. I understand him being young and his hard working mentality will allow him to grow and improve this. But that might be asking for a lot. Most players who come in the NBA as a bad shooter don't make an OG-like growth in shooting.

I would be happy to proven wrong. But I just don't see it with Deni. Maybe later in the lottery(7th and down) But I believe there are better prospects that should be considered ahead of him.

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/01/28/deni-avdija-scouting-report-2/

(Note: might be a bit outdated for a scouting report)
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1675 » by Jcool0 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 1:30 am

Chicagoat wrote:Deni has a few red flags. Like him being a master of none and having a bad FT% on a large sample size. Historically speaking, being a good FT shooter is a metric to see if their shooting will translate to the NBA. I understand him being young and his hard working mentality will allow him to grow and improve this. But that might be asking for a lot. Most players who come in the NBA as a bad shooter don't make an OG-like growth in shooting.

I would be happy to proven wrong. But I just don't see it with Deni. Maybe later in the lottery(7th and down) But I believe there are better prospects that should be considered ahead of him.

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/01/28/deni-avdija-scouting-report-2/

(Note: might be a bit outdated for a scouting report)


Pretty much after the top 3 (Ball, Wiseman and Edwards) Deni is the player with the most upside in this draft. Some are saying NBA teams might not be ranking that way (rumors of Ball & Wisemen dropping) but what we have right now says that will be the top 3. Maybe in a different draft he goes more 6-10 but in this draft he is probably the most logical pick at #4. Also yes a scouting report from January is outdated.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1676 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Sep 5, 2020 2:39 am

PlayerUp wrote:
sco wrote:

I wasn't anti-Deni but after reading this, I am now. Let me summarize:

Some people don't want the Bulls to draft Deni because he can't shoot 3's - Yes he can! So there!

Anyway, I think the biggest issues I have with him is that he has only played well against very weak competition, he doesn't have a left hand and he seems like a tweener - too slow to guard 3's and to weak to guard 4's.


Yes the #1 complaint with Deni is his shooting.

However shooting is the one skill that can rapidly improve at the NBA level. OG Anunoby for example was a terrible shooter in college and within 3 seasons has transformed himself into a 39% 3PT shooter on decent volume winning a clutch 3PT shot in Game 3 yesterday. If we believe we can improve Deni shooting, then we shouldn't be worried. Also Deni can show everyone an improved shot during predraft workouts. Overall from what I have seen, Deni has a good form and smart IQ players find a way to develop their shot overtime. It shouldn't be a concern.

I don't think the number one complaint about him is his shooting?

For me, he has no standout traits. And his physical profile is average.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1677 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:28 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
sco wrote:I wasn't anti-Deni but after reading this, I am now. Let me summarize:

Some people don't want the Bulls to draft Deni because he can't shoot 3's - Yes he can! So there!

Anyway, I think the biggest issues I have with him is that he has only played well against very weak competition, he doesn't have a left hand and he seems like a tweener - too slow to guard 3's and to weak to guard 4's.


Yes the #1 complaint with Deni is his shooting.

However shooting is the one skill that can rapidly improve at the NBA level. OG Anunoby for example was a terrible shooter in college and within 3 seasons has transformed himself into a 39% 3PT shooter on decent volume winning a clutch 3PT shot in Game 3 yesterday. If we believe we can improve Deni shooting, then we shouldn't be worried. Also Deni can show everyone an improved shot during predraft workouts. Overall from what I have seen, Deni has a good form and smart IQ players find a way to develop their shot overtime. It shouldn't be a concern.

I don't think the number one complaint about him is his shooting?

For me, he has no standout traits. And his physical profile is average.


His standout trait is his IQ on both sides. It’s elite for his age.

I’d understand if you said his athleticism is average but his physical profile based on his skills is def not average. How many guys his size handle, pass, and lead the break?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1678 » by MrFortune3 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:34 am

I love Deni, I think most who aren't high on him are using the Luka comp as an excuse. He's got a high BB IQ, shows to be solid on defense with the potential to get even better, he's not an athletic marvel by any means but he's really good at making plays and he can create offense for himself. His shooting needs to improve but his form is solid.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1679 » by MrFortune3 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:36 am

Chi town wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Yes the #1 complaint with Deni is his shooting.

However shooting is the one skill that can rapidly improve at the NBA level. OG Anunoby for example was a terrible shooter in college and within 3 seasons has transformed himself into a 39% 3PT shooter on decent volume winning a clutch 3PT shot in Game 3 yesterday. If we believe we can improve Deni shooting, then we shouldn't be worried. Also Deni can show everyone an improved shot during predraft workouts. Overall from what I have seen, Deni has a good form and smart IQ players find a way to develop their shot overtime. It shouldn't be a concern.

I don't think the number one complaint about him is his shooting?

For me, he has no standout traits. And his physical profile is average.


His standout trait is his IQ on both sides. It’s elite for his age.

I’d understand if you said his athleticism is average but his physical profile based on his skills is def not average. How many guys his size handle, pass, and lead the break?


Exactly. You are talking about a 19 year old who is likely to end up as a 6-10 playmaking point forward who will be a good or better two way player.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1680 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:37 am

MrFortune3 wrote:
Chi town wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I don't think the number one complaint about him is his shooting?

For me, he has no standout traits. And his physical profile is average.


His standout trait is his IQ on both sides. It’s elite for his age.

I’d understand if you said his athleticism is average but his physical profile based on his skills is def not average. How many guys his size handle, pass, and lead the break?


Exactly. You are talking about a 19 year old who is likely to end up as a 6-10 playmaking point forward who will be a good or better two way player.


Yep.

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