2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[Grodoboldo]

Reposting here what I just wrote in the Killian Hayes thread:

Just listened to the newest Cash Considerations podcast this morning (it's on https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jason-patt/cash-considerations-a-chicago-bulls-podcast/e/77575425 if you wanna check it out) with PD Web (he's @abovethebreak3 on Twitter) and they did a deeper analysis on Hayes' game.

The gist:
- Loudicrous if he falls out of the top4.
- Terrific creator out of the P&R as a primary ball handler.
- Thinks his pull-up shot is very translatable.
- Believes in his 3pt shot, thinks the C&S problem is fixable.
- More athletic than he looks.
- Pretty good defender.

He also has a very good article on his Patreon (link if you want to pay the guy his dues: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441&fan_landing=true ) about Hayes.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=drivesdk

[Chi town]

Reposting here what I just wrote in the Killian Hayes thread:

Just listened to the newest Cash Considerations podcast this morning (it's on https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jason-patt/cash-considerations-a-chicago-bulls-podcast/e/77575425 if you wanna check it out) with PD Web (he's @abovethebreak3 on Twitter) and they did a deeper analysis on Hayes' game.

The gist:
- Loudicrous if he falls out of the top4.
- Terrific creator out of the P&R as a primary ball handler.
- Thinks his pull-up shot is very translatable.
- Believes in his 3pt shot, thinks the C&S problem is fixable.
- More athletic than he looks.
- Pretty good defender.

He also has a very good article on his Patreon (link if you want to pay the guy his dues: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441&fan_landing=true ) about Hayes.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=drivesdk

I’m a believer in his shot, playmaking, and him growing into his body and playing more athletic.

Think it was Fischella who said he has heard it’s Deni then Hayes for AK.

I’d be happy with either one.

[Grodoboldo]

Reposting here what I just wrote in the Killian Hayes thread:

Just listened to the newest Cash Considerations podcast this morning (it's on https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jason-patt/cash-considerations-a-chicago-bulls-podcast/e/77575425 if you wanna check it out) with PD Web (he's @abovethebreak3 on Twitter) and they did a deeper analysis on Hayes' game.

The gist:
- Loudicrous if he falls out of the top4.
- Terrific creator out of the P&R as a primary ball handler.
- Thinks his pull-up shot is very translatable.
- Believes in his 3pt shot, thinks the C&S problem is fixable.
- More athletic than he looks.
- Pretty good defender.

He also has a very good article on his Patreon (link if you want to pay the guy his dues: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441&fan_landing=true ) about Hayes.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=drivesdk

I’m a believer in his shot, playmaking, and him growing into his body and playing more athletic.

Think it was Fischella who said he has heard it’s Deni then Hayes for AK.

I’d be happy with either one.

I'm also happy with either, but I'm significantly higher on Hayes. A two-way primary ball handler with great positional size is harder to find.

[drosereturn]

Do we see Wiseman in the vein of Embiid or KAT? I'm not sure man, the era of big men is pretty irrelevant in the modern game unless they can shoot.

I think he is way more skilled and mobile than people here realize. Would David Robinson be good in todays nba, because that is who he reminds me of. He may never reach that, of course. And we have limited tape on him, but that is why we can even hope he falls to 4. If he had a full year of great tape in college, he would be the consensus 1 for sure. So seems like a great risk if we are fortunate to have a shot at him.

And everything I’ve read is he is intelligent and has good work ethic. This is key when drafting a unique huge specimen like wiseman.

Watch on YouTube

This. he shot freaking 70% in fts and he works hard he could become Chris Bosh lite. hes not some garbage men that can only dunk and rebound like Gafford. Watch his highlights where he can do fadeaway and make mid range and hes working on his 3pt already.
Despite small sample, he had a large ft sample size so its safe to assume he can do mid range if not 3s.
And judging from Oregon game, the only thing that plummeted was his fg% and block rate while fouling more.

If he had a whole season, he would avg something like 17pts, 10 rebounds, 3 blocks per game with 70% shooting both fg and fts and this is well under 30 minutes.
The only concern for a specimen like him is his assist/steal rate which gives me Hassan vibes but I think he is a lot smarter and younger.

[drosereturn]

I just don't see a scenario where Wiseman falls to the Bulls. I would absolutely love him on the Bulls but he fits the needs of Charlotte too perfectly for them to pass up.

The issue for Wiseman is that he only got to show 3 games of footage to scouts. He was great in HS and he was very good in his 3 games at Memphis. He needs seasoning but you are looking at a instant starter with the potential to be a defensive anchor while you allow him to develop his offensive game.

Theres no issue with Wiseman esp at 4. If he had 10 games, he would go number 1 in such a weak draft and I wouldnt waste my time bc he would be already gone at this range. Personally, I think he is D rose 2.0 the greatest thing Memphis produced after pooh. He just oozes that superstar aura the same way Rose did and has that similar personality gives me nostalgia. If Ayton went number 1 over euromvp Doncic theres no reason why Wiseman shouldnt go number 1 when theres no Doncic in this draft.

I think either him or Ball falls considering the amt of negativity they have been receiving and Deni has gotten a lot of attention.

[Andi Obst]

I don't know what makes people believe that more college games would have made Wiseman the obvious first pick. Sure, he could have proven the doubters wrong, but to me it's just as likely that he would have been exposed against real competition. He's really the only possible pick in our range that would completely disappoint me.

The Bosh/AD comps are just absurd.

[PlayerUp]

I'm also happy with either, but I'm significantly higher on Hayes. A two-way primary ball handler with great positional size is harder to find.

Read on Twitter

Hayes and Deni seem to be the clear frontrunners.

Keep in mind, Hayes has not played professional basketball in 6 months now. He could have significantly improved since we last saw him play.

[PlayerUp]

I don't know what makes people believe that more college games would have made Wiseman the obvious first pick. Sure, he could have proven the doubters wrong, but to me it's just as likely that he would have been exposed against real competition. He's really the only possible pick in our range that would completely disappoint me.

The Bosh/AD comps are just absurd.

Wiseman all he did was dunk in his college games. We saw nothing impactful.

However if Wiseman goes into predraft workouts and has a solid 3PT shot things could change quickly. It's been 10 months since Wiseman last played.

[PlayerUp]

I think either him or Ball falls considering the amt of negativity they have been receiving and Deni has gotten a lot of attention.

A team may try to move up for Ball though. I don't see a team moving up for Wiseman. Edwards is the most unlikely prospect to drop to #4.

[Andi Obst]

I don't know what makes people believe that more college games would have made Wiseman the obvious first pick. Sure, he could have proven the doubters wrong, but to me it's just as likely that he would have been exposed against real competition. He's really the only possible pick in our range that would completely disappoint me.

The Bosh/AD comps are just absurd.

Wiseman all he did was dunk in his college games. We saw nothing impactful.

However if Wiseman goes into predraft workouts and has a solid 3PT shot things could change quickly. It's been 10 months since Wiseman last played.

Sure, but the step from where he was to where he needs to be for defenses to his respect his shot is huuuuuuge. Him making some in an empty gym wouldn't impress me much. That's just Bamba all over again.

[chefo]

The reason why people love Wiseman is not because he could dunk on everyone in college, but rather because he has very quick feet and is a quick twitch jumper. Both are incredibly rare at his height and length.

The reason people don't like him is because unless you're the Joker, you're seen as obsolete in today's NBA. To which I call bull, BTW.

It's just we have not seen truly talented mid/high-post players since AD. Nobody can convince me that the Admiral or Hakeem would not absolutely destroy the league with its lack of defensive anchors. I mean, for crying out loud, Admiral was like Giannis with a jump shot. Not the exact same player obviously, because Giannis handles the rock a lot, but very similar in how they attack the basket. And the Dream would just feast, if he was guarded by a bunch of Draymonds and PJ Tuckers...

The thing with young bigs, as we saw to our own frustration, is that it takes a team dedicated to developing them. Miami did with Bam and now he's the second best player of an ECF team. Going back, Dwight did not become MVP-level Dwight in Orlando overnight. Even that player, who couldn't shoot FTs and outside of 10 feet, was an incredibly valuable player, because he anchored the D and could still get you 20&13. He also one of the few to beat LeBron in the East in his prime.

Good, anchor bigs that can produce on O have a place in the NBA and always will.

The question is, can Wiseman be that? He definitely has the physical tools.

[Grodoboldo]

**** hell man, November is far away.

Read on Twitter

[Jvaughn]

Reposting here what I just wrote in the Killian Hayes thread:

Just listened to the newest Cash Considerations podcast this morning (it's on https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jason-patt/cash-considerations-a-chicago-bulls-podcast/e/77575425 if you wanna check it out) with PD Web (he's @abovethebreak3 on Twitter) and they did a deeper analysis on Hayes' game.

The gist:
- Loudicrous if he falls out of the top4.
- Terrific creator out of the P&R as a primary ball handler.
- Thinks his pull-up shot is very translatable.
- Believes in his 3pt shot, thinks the C&S problem is fixable.
- More athletic than he looks.
- Pretty good defender.

He also has a very good article on his Patreon (link if you want to pay the guy his dues: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441&fan_landing=true ) about Hayes.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=drivesdk

I’m a believer in his shot, playmaking, and him growing into his body and playing more athletic.

Think it was Fischella who said he has heard it’s Deni then Hayes for AK.

I’d be happy with either one.

Yep, that's my list still, and it has been for a several weeks now. I'm all in for either one, because they both fit a need as well as have ton of upside to grow. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I still think both of them have star potential.

[Chi town]

Reposting here what I just wrote in the Killian Hayes thread:

Just listened to the newest Cash Considerations podcast this morning (it's on https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jason-patt/cash-considerations-a-chicago-bulls-podcast/e/77575425 if you wanna check it out) with PD Web (he's @abovethebreak3 on Twitter) and they did a deeper analysis on Hayes' game.

The gist:
- Loudicrous if he falls out of the top4.
- Terrific creator out of the P&R as a primary ball handler.
- Thinks his pull-up shot is very translatable.
- Believes in his 3pt shot, thinks the C&S problem is fixable.
- More athletic than he looks.
- Pretty good defender.

He also has a very good article on his Patreon (link if you want to pay the guy his dues: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441&fan_landing=true ) about Hayes.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=drivesdk

I’m a believer in his shot, playmaking, and him growing into his body and playing more athletic.

Think it was Fischella who said he has heard it’s Deni then Hayes for AK.

I’d be happy with either one.

Yep, that's my list still, and it has been for a several weeks now. I'm all in for either one, because they both fit a need as well as have ton of upside to grow. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I still think both of them have star potential.

I believe the same. I like Deni and his edge and player type better than Hayes.

I can see Billy Donavan coaching his new 3 guard lineup of Lavine Coby Hayes just like he did w CP3 SGA and Shroeder.

[LateNight]

The reason why people love Wiseman is not because he could dunk on everyone in college, but rather because he has very quick feet and is a quick twitch jumper. Both are incredibly rare at his height and length.

The reason people don't like him is because unless you're the Joker, you're seen as obsolete in today's NBA. To which I call bull, BTW.

The first part of this is somewhat true, but I think the second part seems inaccurate based on the limited reporting I've heard.

The knock on Wiseman from scouts seems to be that he basically wasn't that impressive during camps. I may be wrong, but I believe the summary was basically that his physical profile was amazing, but he got worked by guys like Isaiah Stewart (who are now mocked much lower).

The perception of Wiseman is skewed by years of hype (sort of like Bol Bol). For instance, a couple years ago I remember Chuck Klosterman going on the Ringer and comparing Wiseman to KD - which is HUGE for his hype - but I never heard a scout say anything remotely close to that. The main thing you hear about him is that, as you stated, he's very mobile for his size.

His jumper was also overrated by some people

[kodo]

There seems to be a consensus that Wiseman's frame is elite, but whether or not he has elite athleticism seems to vary from source to source.

Stepien is one of those sites that has him with an elite frame but not elite athleticism.

Athleticism / Frame Overview: Good, not great vertical athlete. Tight hips and “heavy” feet moving laterally – not particularly quick. Long-loader and doesn’t rise well in crowded spaces. Long arms with a large catch radius on lobs, entry passes, and general passes that aren’t very accurate. Very strong and well rounded strength in upper and lower body, though he can probably get a bit stronger in his base. Unsure about core strength – seems a bit unbalanced in space (and is prone to putting hands straight out to counteract the poor balance?). Wide base on perimeter that might contribute to the poor balance.

Defense in Space: Not very comfortable in space. Looks off balance / can be shaken when he’s out there, which could be a core strength issue or it could just be how he is. I don’t think he’ll ever be fully comfortable out there, so he’s primarily going to be a drop big in coverage. Definitely needs to work on footwork. Prone to crossing feet, hands sometimes go out if someone drives resulting in fouls or a lack of contest. Very wide base too, which should probably be brought in a bit as this might help his lateral movement and change of directions. Hips aren’t slow, but they’re not quick either. Has “heavy feet.” However, there were a few solid defensive possessions in space moving his feet against smaller players or a big facing up. Still not someone I would want switching very often.

Ayton at the time was more hyped and considered more athletic than Wiseman, was called a Unicorn and getting David Robinson / Shawn Kemp comparisons. One thing the media tends to do is overhype athletic bigs while underestimating skill/craft guys in the general Luka/Trae style. So I'm always a bit skeptical about how much actual NBA impact a raw Center will see, if he is producing almost purely on his size at the college/HS level. This is why I was really down on Bagley as a #2.

[BullsFTW]

I’m a believer in his shot, playmaking, and him growing into his body and playing more athletic.

Think it was Fischella who said he has heard it’s Deni then Hayes for AK.

I’d be happy with either one.

Yep, that's my list still, and it has been for a several weeks now. I'm all in for either one, because they both fit a need as well as have ton of upside to grow. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I still think both of them have star potential.

I believe the same. I like Deni and his edge and player type better than Hayes.

I can see Billy Donavan coaching his new 3 guard lineup of Lavine Coby Hayes just like he did w CP3 SGA and Shroeder.

I’ve imagine that line up too w/ Lauri as Gallanari & WCJ as Adams.

[Leslie Forman]

That can all be explained with how much the center position has been devalued in the league

No it can't. The next Hakeem would NOT be talked about as some "well maybe he goes top-5" kind of pick in this awful a draft. This is still the league that took Ayton #1 just two years ago, and there are still idiots out there defending that clearly awful decision.

Why supposed fans of the damn CHICAGO BULLS are so freaking insistent on wasting valuable assets on a true center is especially nonsensical.

[LateNight]

Stepien is one of those sites that has him with an elite frame but not elite athleticism.

Athleticism / Frame Overview: Good, not great vertical athlete. Tight hips and “heavy” feet moving laterally – not particularly quick. Long-loader and doesn’t rise well in crowded spaces...

Defense in Space: Definitely needs to work on footwork. Prone to crossing feet, hands sometimes go out if someone drives resulting in fouls or a lack of contest. Very wide base too, which should probably be brought in a bit as this might help his lateral movement and change of directions. Hips aren’t slow, but they’re not quick either. Has “heavy feet.” However, there were a few solid defensive possessions in space moving his feet against smaller players or a big facing up.

What I've heard about him, athletically, is that he can get up and down the court really well. I don't know how that converts to the NBA - whether it becomes more or less valuable - but straight-line speed may be his biggest competitive advantage.

[MGB8]

There seems to be a consensus that Wiseman's frame is elite, but whether or not he has elite athleticism seems to vary from source to source.

Stepien is one of those sites that has him with an elite frame but not elite athleticism.

Athleticism / Frame Overview: Good, not great vertical athlete. Tight hips and “heavy” feet moving laterally – not particularly quick. Long-loader and doesn’t rise well in crowded spaces. Long arms with a large catch radius on lobs, entry passes, and general passes that aren’t very accurate. Very strong and well rounded strength in upper and lower body, though he can probably get a bit stronger in his base. Unsure about core strength – seems a bit unbalanced in space (and is prone to putting hands straight out to counteract the poor balance?). Wide base on perimeter that might contribute to the poor balance.

Defense in Space: Not very comfortable in space. Looks off balance / can be shaken when he’s out there, which could be a core strength issue or it could just be how he is. I don’t think he’ll ever be fully comfortable out there, so he’s primarily going to be a drop big in coverage. Definitely needs to work on footwork. Prone to crossing feet, hands sometimes go out if someone drives resulting in fouls or a lack of contest. Very wide base too, which should probably be brought in a bit as this might help his lateral movement and change of directions. Hips aren’t slow, but they’re not quick either. Has “heavy feet.” However, there were a few solid defensive possessions in space moving his feet against smaller players or a big facing up. Still not someone I would want switching very often.

Ayton at the time was more hyped and considered more athletic than Wiseman, was called a Unicorn and getting David Robinson / Shawn Kemp comparisons. One thing the media tends to do is overhype athletic bigs while underestimating skill/craft guys in the general Luka/Trae style. So I'm always a bit skeptical about how much actual NBA impact a raw Center will see, if he is producing almost purely on his size at the college/HS level. This is why I was really down on Bagley as a #2.

That strikes me as, well, wrong. I mean, he's not JJJ, but he has elite body control and is at minimum comparable to Ayton in terms of his feet, quickness, jumping, etc. I don't really see particularly tight hips, and the Stepien contradicts itself by saying "Hips aren't slow, but they're not quick either." Which is it? Tight (which would translate to slow / limited movement) or essentially "average."

Basically, think WCJr., but add 3 and maybe by now 4 inches in height, reach and wingspan, as well as better hands.