Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond

[jbk1234]

More like 8 and 27 and maybe future 2nd. Not really interested in NY castoffs to move down.

I want a future first or they can bounce. The Mavs will be a playoff team next year. Their pick will suffice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app[/quote
My guess is that NY tries to move up higher than us to get Ball if their reported interest is true. I don't think they would wait for him to fall to 5, they aren't the most patient organization. We would likely have to take on some salary to entice them to give up a first next year if Ball drops to 5 and they deal with us.

I'm fine with that result as well. If Ball is off the board, then someone I want more than Ball is still on it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[jbk1234]

Avdija
Vassell
Okoro
Pokusevski
Okongwu
Williams
Hayes
Halliburton

That's my list.

I'm Wiseman, Okongwu, Vassell, Okoro in that order at No. 5. I'm open to trading back if Okoro is the only one left. I'm hoping to trade back if Ball and Edwards are still on the board and those four are gone but I think the Bulls and/or Charlotte go offense.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

Well, assuming NY isn't willing to make a Doncic like offer, how badly do you want Frank Ntkilina or perhaps Alonzo Trier?

More like 8 and 27 and maybe future 2nd. Not really interested in NY castoffs to move down.

I want a future first or they can bounce. The Mavs will be a playoff team next year. Their pick will suffice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

right 5 for 8, 27 and the Dallas 1st in 21 is the price imo if Ball falls to that spot anyway because somebody else will be calling with counters for sure

[jbk1234]

More like 8 and 27 and maybe future 2nd. Not really interested in NY castoffs to move down.

I want a future first or they can bounce. The Mavs will be a playoff team next year. Their pick will suffice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

right 5 for 8, 27 and the Dallas 1st in 21 is the price imo if Ball falls to that spot anyway because somebody else will be calling with counters for sure

They could keep 27. I'm not really interested in adding two rookies to an already young roster and Gilbert can always buy a late first if he is. I want that second 2021 pick.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

I want a future first or they can bounce. The Mavs will be a playoff team next year. Their pick will suffice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

right 5 for 8, 27 and the Dallas 1st in 21 is the price imo if Ball falls to that spot anyway because somebody else will be calling with counters for sure

They could keep 27. I'm not really interested in adding two rookies to an already young roster and Gilbert can always buy a late first if he is. I want that second 2021 pick.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

second 21 1st is included in what I said, I would definitely also want that 27th if I am giving up 3 prospect options to do it.
If for no other reason than as trade bait or a stash project but this team is too far away to not be interested in more rookies imo

[jbk1234]

right 5 for 8, 27 and the Dallas 1st in 21 is the price imo if Ball falls to that spot anyway because somebody else will be calling with counters for sure

They could keep 27. I'm not really interested in adding two rookies to an already young roster and Gilbert can always buy a late first if he is. I want that second 2021 pick.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

second 21 1st is included in what I said, I would definitely also want that 27th if I am giving up 3 prospect options to do it.
If for no other reason than as trade bait or a stash project but this team is too far away to not be interested in more rookies imo

That seems like an overpay to move back three slots tbh. You can always ask, but if I got that Mavs pick, I'm pulling the trigger.

What are your thoughts on Vassell? I think he's moving up my board.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

They could keep 27. I'm not really interested in adding two rookies to an already young roster and Gilbert can always buy a late first if he is. I want that second 2021 pick.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

second 21 1st is included in what I said, I would definitely also want that 27th if I am giving up 3 prospect options to do it.
If for no other reason than as trade bait or a stash project but this team is too far away to not be interested in more rookies imo

That seems like an overpay to move back three slots tbh. You can always ask, but if I got that Mavs pick, I'm pulling the trigger.

What are your thoughts on Vassell? I think he's moving up my board.

My take fwiw ...

I watched some tape on him to compare him to Nesmith. I like his defensive tools and his shooting (when open), but the rest of his offensive game has a long ways to go IMO. He can get free off his dribble, but tends to settle for an unreliable pull-up long 2.

He's very light right now too, which is good news if you feel his game could improve dramatically once he's in an NBA conditioning program.

If you want to take a shot on drafting a wing that might be able to be developed in to a high-impact two-way player, he's a good choice.

His combination of length, upside, and athleticism should have him high on the Cavs board. Personally? I'm not sure I'd roll the dice on him when Nesmith has far more polished off-ball skills that should fit nicely with our ball dominant guards.

[jbk1234]

second 21 1st is included in what I said, I would definitely also want that 27th if I am giving up 3 prospect options to do it.
If for no other reason than as trade bait or a stash project but this team is too far away to not be interested in more rookies imo

That seems like an overpay to move back three slots tbh. You can always ask, but if I got that Mavs pick, I'm pulling the trigger.

What are your thoughts on Vassell? I think he's moving up my board.

My take fwiw ...

I watched some tape on him to compare him to Nesmith. I like his defensive tools and his shooting (when open), but the rest of his offensive game has a long ways to go IMO. He can get free off his dribble, but tends to settle for an unreliable pull-up long 2.

He's very light right now too, which is good news if you feel his game could improve dramatically once he's in an NBA conditioning program.

If you want to take a shot on drafting a wing that might be able to be developed in to a high-impact two-way player, he's a good choice.

His combination of length, upside, and athleticism should have him high on the Cavs board. Personally? I'm not sure I'd roll the dice on him when Nesmith has far more polished off-ball skills that should fit nicely with our ball dominant guards.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Stillwater when it comes to drafting offense-only players at this point. It's very hard to hide two. It's impossible to hide three. Vassell's defensive analytics are really good. Legitimate 3 & D guys are very difficult to come by. It's why they're always sought after on the T&T board.

[Stillwater]

That seems like an overpay to move back three slots tbh. You can always ask, but if I got that Mavs pick, I'm pulling the trigger.

What are your thoughts on Vassell? I think he's moving up my board.

My take fwiw ...

I watched some tape on him to compare him to Nesmith. I like his defensive tools and his shooting (when open), but the rest of his offensive game has a long ways to go IMO. He can get free off his dribble, but tends to settle for an unreliable pull-up long 2.

He's very light right now too, which is good news if you feel his game could improve dramatically once he's in an NBA conditioning program.

If you want to take a shot on drafting a wing that might be able to be developed in to a high-impact two-way player, he's a good choice.

His combination of length, upside, and athleticism should have him high on the Cavs board. Personally? I'm not sure I'd roll the dice on him when Nesmith has far more polished off-ball skills that should fit nicely with our ball dominant guards.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Stillwater when it comes to drafting offense-only players at this point. It's very hard to hide two. It's impossible to hide three. Vassell's defensive analytics are really good. Legitimate 3 & D guys are very difficult to come by. It's why they're always sought after on the T&T board.

Yeah I am not sure why most are not seeing Vassell as more than a 3/d prospect tbh. He did plenty of slashing last season. Right now after 2 years at the leonard hamilton school of defense he is in the top of his class wing defender and the best defender on his team and is easily as solid defensively as Thybulle for example from day 1.
His awareness and bbiq are off the charts for an off ball guard or sf.Imo his elite face up game and unguardable release is going to transfer smoothly.
He also showed an impressive ability to keep the ball moving make the right pass etc and understands how to make winning plays and impact the offense even at a sub 20% usage rate.
What gets lost in most scouting reports is how much he has accomplished from being a 3 star recruit to earning lottery level attention after his soph season.
He needs to improve his first step in iso to match his quick first step off the catch and I think it will open up his options getting to the line more which is also a concern as the fta rate is low.

[jbk1234]

My take fwiw ...

I watched some tape on him to compare him to Nesmith. I like his defensive tools and his shooting (when open), but the rest of his offensive game has a long ways to go IMO. He can get free off his dribble, but tends to settle for an unreliable pull-up long 2.

He's very light right now too, which is good news if you feel his game could improve dramatically once he's in an NBA conditioning program.

If you want to take a shot on drafting a wing that might be able to be developed in to a high-impact two-way player, he's a good choice.

His combination of length, upside, and athleticism should have him high on the Cavs board. Personally? I'm not sure I'd roll the dice on him when Nesmith has far more polished off-ball skills that should fit nicely with our ball dominant guards.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Stillwater when it comes to drafting offense-only players at this point. It's very hard to hide two. It's impossible to hide three. Vassell's defensive analytics are really good. Legitimate 3 & D guys are very difficult to come by. It's why they're always sought after on the T&T board.

Yeah I am not sure why most are not seeing Vassell as more than a 3/d prospect tbh. He did plenty of slashing last season. Right now after 2 years at the leonard hamilton school of defense he is in the top of his class wing defender and the best defender on his team and is easily as solid defensively as Thybulle for example from day 1.
His awareness and bbiq are off the charts for an off ball guard or sf.Imo his elite face up game and unguardable release is going to transfer smoothly.
He also showed an impressive ability to keep the ball moving make the right pass etc and understands how to make winning plays and impact the offense even at a sub 20% usage rate.
What gets lost in most scouting reports is how much he has accomplished from being a 3 star recruit to earning lottery level attention after his soph season.
He needs to improve his first step in iso to match his quick first step off the catch and I think it will open up his options getting to the line more which is also a concern as the fta rate is low.

I listened to a scouting report on Vassell where the guy said a lot of times people label someone a 3&D prospect because they lack other skills, but rarely does that prospect have the ability to consistently hit a three or defend at a high level. He said Vassell is the real deal. If that's his floor, I'm good. It wouldn't surprise me if he's off the board before the Cavs pick tbh.

[Stillwater]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Stillwater when it comes to drafting offense-only players at this point. It's very hard to hide two. It's impossible to hide three. Vassell's defensive analytics are really good. Legitimate 3 & D guys are very difficult to come by. It's why they're always sought after on the T&T board.

Yeah I am not sure why most are not seeing Vassell as more than a 3/d prospect tbh. He did plenty of slashing last season. Right now after 2 years at the leonard hamilton school of defense he is in the top of his class wing defender and the best defender on his team and is easily as solid defensively as Thybulle for example from day 1.
His awareness and bbiq are off the charts for an off ball guard or sf.Imo his elite face up game and unguardable release is going to transfer smoothly.
He also showed an impressive ability to keep the ball moving make the right pass etc and understands how to make winning plays and impact the offense even at a sub 20% usage rate.
What gets lost in most scouting reports is how much he has accomplished from being a 3 star recruit to earning lottery level attention after his soph season.
He needs to improve his first step in iso to match his quick first step off the catch and I think it will open up his options getting to the line more which is also a concern as the fta rate is low.

I listened to a scouting report on Vassell where the guy said a lot of times people label someone a 3&D prospect because they lack other skills, but rarely does that prospect have the ability to consistently hit a three or defend at a high level. He said Vassell is the real deal. If that's his floor, I'm good. It wouldn't surprise me if he's off the board before the Cavs pick tbh.

He is definitely the type of sleeper that could jump into the 3 or 4 spot just because of how difficult it is to find that archtype and really the only thing holding him back from being a consensus top 3 pick is getting stronger which he looks like he can still do enough to make it a reasonable expectation so his iso game improves or at least his ability to defend rangy 3's more easily. I mean his ability to work in the pick and roll late in the shot clock and dribble hand offs is also impressive and would be elite once stronger

[JonFromVA]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Stillwater when it comes to drafting offense-only players at this point. It's very hard to hide two. It's impossible to hide three. Vassell's defensive analytics are really good. Legitimate 3 & D guys are very difficult to come by. It's why they're always sought after on the T&T board.

Yeah I am not sure why most are not seeing Vassell as more than a 3/d prospect tbh. He did plenty of slashing last season. Right now after 2 years at the leonard hamilton school of defense he is in the top of his class wing defender and the best defender on his team and is easily as solid defensively as Thybulle for example from day 1.
His awareness and bbiq are off the charts for an off ball guard or sf.Imo his elite face up game and unguardable release is going to transfer smoothly.
He also showed an impressive ability to keep the ball moving make the right pass etc and understands how to make winning plays and impact the offense even at a sub 20% usage rate.
What gets lost in most scouting reports is how much he has accomplished from being a 3 star recruit to earning lottery level attention after his soph season.
He needs to improve his first step in iso to match his quick first step off the catch and I think it will open up his options getting to the line more which is also a concern as the fta rate is low.

I listened to a scouting report on Vassell where the guy said a lot of times people label someone a 3&D prospect because they lack other skills, but rarely does that prospect have the ability to consistently hit a three or defend at a high level. He said Vassell is the real deal. If that's his floor, I'm good. It wouldn't surprise me if he's off the board before the Cavs pick tbh.

Yeah, a 3&D prospect is kind of scary because most of the actual 3&D guys had or were at least thought to have had higher ceilings before settling in to a 3&D role.

But in this day and age, I think we need to dig a bit deeper in to a 3pt shooter beyond whether he can knock down 3's. There's a whole set of tricks shooters use these days to get their shot off and bury 3's in volume. We need to look at whether they understand using screens, setting screens, motion, how quick their release is, whether they can adjust their shot with a man flying at them, do they have NBA range, do they have beyond NBA range, do they know how to draw fouls, pass and play a 2-man game, etc, etc.

[Stillwater]

Yeah I am not sure why most are not seeing Vassell as more than a 3/d prospect tbh. He did plenty of slashing last season. Right now after 2 years at the leonard hamilton school of defense he is in the top of his class wing defender and the best defender on his team and is easily as solid defensively as Thybulle for example from day 1.
His awareness and bbiq are off the charts for an off ball guard or sf.Imo his elite face up game and unguardable release is going to transfer smoothly.
He also showed an impressive ability to keep the ball moving make the right pass etc and understands how to make winning plays and impact the offense even at a sub 20% usage rate.
What gets lost in most scouting reports is how much he has accomplished from being a 3 star recruit to earning lottery level attention after his soph season.
He needs to improve his first step in iso to match his quick first step off the catch and I think it will open up his options getting to the line more which is also a concern as the fta rate is low.

I listened to a scouting report on Vassell where the guy said a lot of times people label someone a 3&D prospect because they lack other skills, but rarely does that prospect have the ability to consistently hit a three or defend at a high level. He said Vassell is the real deal. If that's his floor, I'm good. It wouldn't surprise me if he's off the board before the Cavs pick tbh.

Yeah, a 3&D prospect is kind of scary because most of the actual 3&D guys had or were at least thought to have had higher ceilings before settling in to a 3&D role.

But in this day and age, I think we need to dig a bit deeper in to a 3pt shooter beyond whether he can knock down 3's. There's a whole set of tricks shooters use these days to get their shot off and bury 3's in volume. We need to look at whether they understand using screens, setting screens, motion, how quick their release is, whether they can adjust their shot with a man flying at them, do they have NBA range, do they have beyond NBA range, do they know how to draw fouls, pass and play a 2-man game, etc, etc.

I am surprised you dont like Vassell more than Nesmith given his overall offensive skillset is a lot better. yes Nesmith has a higher 3 point shooting % last season but I mean you could almost chalk that up to the looks he had were less contested on most makes in addition to not getting much attention by defenses early in the college season before he got hurt.
idk, I can see Nesmith developing into something more than a role player , but I would take the elite defender who can shoot decent from midrange and deep range in a variety of sets and also has a solid cool as a cucumber % against lock down defenses.

[JonFromVA]

I listened to a scouting report on Vassell where the guy said a lot of times people label someone a 3&D prospect because they lack other skills, but rarely does that prospect have the ability to consistently hit a three or defend at a high level. He said Vassell is the real deal. If that's his floor, I'm good. It wouldn't surprise me if he's off the board before the Cavs pick tbh.

Yeah, a 3&D prospect is kind of scary because most of the actual 3&D guys had or were at least thought to have had higher ceilings before settling in to a 3&D role.

But in this day and age, I think we need to dig a bit deeper in to a 3pt shooter beyond whether he can knock down 3's. There's a whole set of tricks shooters use these days to get their shot off and bury 3's in volume. We need to look at whether they understand using screens, setting screens, motion, how quick their release is, whether they can adjust their shot with a man flying at them, do they have NBA range, do they have beyond NBA range, do they know how to draw fouls, pass and play a 2-man game, etc, etc.

I am surprised you dont like Vassell more than Nesmith given his overall offensive skillset is a lot better. yes Nesmith has a higher 3 point shooting % last season but I mean you could almost chalk that up to the looks he had were less contested on most makes in addition to not getting much attention by defenses early in the college season before he got hurt.
idk, I can see Nesmith developing into something more than a role player , but I would take the elite defender who can shoot decent from midrange and deep range in a variety of sets and also has a solid cool as a cucumber % against lock down defenses.

Sure, there were cases of defensive negligence in the film I watched, but that's endemic to NCAA basketball. It's pretty cringey at times even in high-level tournament games; but you know what all those wide open shots get most players? Something like the 12 ppg on 10 shots that Vassell scored, not 23 ppg on 14 shots that Nesmith managed.

But yeah, if I thought Nesmith was only shooting wide open shots and barely knew how to dribble or defend, I'd like Vassell a lot more. That's just not what I'm seeing when I watch his film. I see the kind of player that can generate offense off-the-ball and continues to do it even when the game is coming down to the final minutes.

Thing is, either Vassell or Nesmith would be very surprising to draft at #5 if we were to believe the various mocks. We're supposed to take Deni and hope he learns how to shoot because "he finished the year strong" which is apparently secret code for having 1 good game out of his last 5?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Deni-Avdija/GameLogs/116938

[Stillwater]

Yeah, a 3&D prospect is kind of scary because most of the actual 3&D guys had or were at least thought to have had higher ceilings before settling in to a 3&D role.

But in this day and age, I think we need to dig a bit deeper in to a 3pt shooter beyond whether he can knock down 3's. There's a whole set of tricks shooters use these days to get their shot off and bury 3's in volume. We need to look at whether they understand using screens, setting screens, motion, how quick their release is, whether they can adjust their shot with a man flying at them, do they have NBA range, do they have beyond NBA range, do they know how to draw fouls, pass and play a 2-man game, etc, etc.

I am surprised you dont like Vassell more than Nesmith given his overall offensive skillset is a lot better. yes Nesmith has a higher 3 point shooting % last season but I mean you could almost chalk that up to the looks he had were less contested on most makes in addition to not getting much attention by defenses early in the college season before he got hurt.
idk, I can see Nesmith developing into something more than a role player , but I would take the elite defender who can shoot decent from midrange and deep range in a variety of sets and also has a solid cool as a cucumber % against lock down defenses.

Sure, there were cases of defensive negligence in the film I watched, but that's endemic to NCAA basketball. It's pretty cringey at times even in high-level tournament games; but you know what all those wide open shots get most players? Something like the 12 ppg on 10 shots that Vassell scored, not 23 ppg on 14 shots that Nesmith managed.

But yeah, if I thought Nesmith was only shooting wide open shots and barely knew how to dribble or defend, I'd like Vassell a lot more. That's just not what I'm seeing when I watch his film. I see the kind of player that can generate offense off-the-ball and continues to do it even when the game is coming down to the final minutes.

Thing is, either Vassell or Nesmith would be very surprising to draft at #5 if we were to believe the various mocks. We're supposed to take Deni and hope he learns how to shoot because "he finished the year strong" which is apparently secret code for having 1 good game out of his last 5?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Deni-Avdija/GameLogs/116938

Id say your film is not good evidence... I mean Vassell is playing in a system where he was never more than a low usage offensive option and I'm sure if he was playing in Vandys system instead of Nesmith the offensive stats would be the same or Vassell would be even better.
The point is your sleeping on Vassells defensive impact clearly

[JonFromVA]

I am surprised you dont like Vassell more than Nesmith given his overall offensive skillset is a lot better. yes Nesmith has a higher 3 point shooting % last season but I mean you could almost chalk that up to the looks he had were less contested on most makes in addition to not getting much attention by defenses early in the college season before he got hurt.
idk, I can see Nesmith developing into something more than a role player , but I would take the elite defender who can shoot decent from midrange and deep range in a variety of sets and also has a solid cool as a cucumber % against lock down defenses.

Sure, there were cases of defensive negligence in the film I watched, but that's endemic to NCAA basketball. It's pretty cringey at times even in high-level tournament games; but you know what all those wide open shots get most players? Something like the 12 ppg on 10 shots that Vassell scored, not 23 ppg on 14 shots that Nesmith managed.

But yeah, if I thought Nesmith was only shooting wide open shots and barely knew how to dribble or defend, I'd like Vassell a lot more. That's just not what I'm seeing when I watch his film. I see the kind of player that can generate offense off-the-ball and continues to do it even when the game is coming down to the final minutes.

Thing is, either Vassell or Nesmith would be very surprising to draft at #5 if we were to believe the various mocks. We're supposed to take Deni and hope he learns how to shoot because "he finished the year strong" which is apparently secret code for having 1 good game out of his last 5?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Deni-Avdija/GameLogs/116938

Id say your film is not good evidence... I mean Vassell is playing in a system where he was never more than a low usage offensive option and I'm sure if he was playing in Vandys system instead of Nesmith the offensive stats would be the same or Vassell would be even better.
The point is your sleeping on Vassells defensive impact clearly

Sleeping? I mentioned it explicitly. But I also think Nesmith has good potential on D too. But offense is clearly more important than defense in today's game. A great defender can be dismissed with a decent screen.

[jbk1234]

Sure, there were cases of defensive negligence in the film I watched, but that's endemic to NCAA basketball. It's pretty cringey at times even in high-level tournament games; but you know what all those wide open shots get most players? Something like the 12 ppg on 10 shots that Vassell scored, not 23 ppg on 14 shots that Nesmith managed.

But yeah, if I thought Nesmith was only shooting wide open shots and barely knew how to dribble or defend, I'd like Vassell a lot more. That's just not what I'm seeing when I watch his film. I see the kind of player that can generate offense off-the-ball and continues to do it even when the game is coming down to the final minutes.

Thing is, either Vassell or Nesmith would be very surprising to draft at #5 if we were to believe the various mocks. We're supposed to take Deni and hope he learns how to shoot because "he finished the year strong" which is apparently secret code for having 1 good game out of his last 5?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Deni-Avdija/GameLogs/116938

Id say your film is not good evidence... I mean Vassell is playing in a system where he was never more than a low usage offensive option and I'm sure if he was playing in Vandys system instead of Nesmith the offensive stats would be the same or Vassell would be even better.
The point is your sleeping on Vassells defensive impact clearly

Sleeping? I mentioned it explicitly. But I also think Nesmith has good potential on D too. But offense is clearly more important than defense in today's game. A great defender can be dismissed with a decent screen.

Not if he's 6'7".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

well with draft being pushed to Nov 18th I guess there is some hope they can get a combine in or at least allow private workouts...
Many GMs are probably pushing for it given the college season ended before the tournament started.

[jbk1234]

well with draft being pushed to Nov 18th I guess there is some hope they can get a combine in or at least allow private workouts...
Many GMs are probably pushing for it given the college season ended before the tournament started.

Honestly, private workouts are dicey. Absent an injury concern, I'm not sure they add value.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

well with draft being pushed to Nov 18th I guess there is some hope they can get a combine in or at least allow private workouts...
Many GMs are probably pushing for it given the college season ended before the tournament started.

Honestly, private workouts are dicey. Absent an injury concern, I'm not sure they add value.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

yep got to get medicals somehow if nothing else