2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[70sFan]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

[freethedevil]

I'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk here, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say, nor the point you're making.

That says more about you then me yeah, my point's pretty clear.

You said Kawhi has been inferior for three teams, his team is better, and he has the luxury of picking his spots, but still gets outplayed. I really don't understand that sequence of thoughts.

My point is that Kawhi doesn't monopolize the offense (i.e. takeover) unless he sees his team struggling, similar to game 7 last year against Philly. I think it's really valuable that a guy can read the room like that, and it has nothing to do with picking and choosing when to be good, because he's been consistently awesome this entire playoffs, minus a single game. Are you really trying to make the claim that he's been bad or underperforming?

How does that sequence nto make sense. Kawhi has better team -> kawhi plays worse than induvidual player on opposite team-> Kawhi's team wins anyway-> hence he can pick spots and not get punished for it.

if you think he's better than jokic, then yes, he's underperformed, since jokic has played better.

The whole monoplozing offense thing might hold some validity if we were comparing him to giannis or lebron, but you are comparing him to Jokic, whose off-ball value is Only exceeded by Stephen wardell curry. Jokic's average time of possessoin is only longer than draymond green.

[freethedevil]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

Kawhi is a far more heliocentric player than Jokic is. Jokic gets most of his value off-ball.

[eminence]

I don't think it's so clear in either direction which of Kawhi/Jokic has been the best player in the series.

Kawhi >> Game 1
Jokic >> Game 2
Jokic > Game 3
Kawhi > Game 4

[mikejames23]

This is tough. I believe in a shocker Goran Dragic might be the best player in the league when it comes to handling the ball. I would really love to watch Kyle Lowry vs Goran Dragic. Anyway, I fully support ousting Bucks staff and blowing it up for Giannis.

Mine go somewhat this way -

1. Kawhi

Is the best player as of now. I am still watching LeBron for a upset at the end of the season.

[70sFan]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

Kawhi is a far more heliocentric player than Jokic is. Jokic gets most of his value off-ball.

I don't compare him to Jokic here.

[freethedevil]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

Kawhi is a far more heliocentric player than Jokic is. Jokic gets most of his value off-ball.

I don't compare him to Jokic here.

My bad. I assumed you were continuing on from your other post.

[E-Balla]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

Yep. It was telling when people were saying Luka was outplaying Kawhi.

[MyUniBroDavis]

That says more about you then me yeah, my point's pretty clear.

You said Kawhi has been inferior for three teams, his team is better, and he has the luxury of picking his spots, but still gets outplayed. I really don't understand that sequence of thoughts.

My point is that Kawhi doesn't monopolize the offense (i.e. takeover) unless he sees his team struggling, similar to game 7 last year against Philly. I think it's really valuable that a guy can read the room like that, and it has nothing to do with picking and choosing when to be good, because he's been consistently awesome this entire playoffs, minus a single game. Are you really trying to make the claim that he's been bad or underperforming?

How does that sequence nto make sense. Kawhi has better team -> kawhi plays worse than induvidual player on opposite team-> Kawhi's team wins anyway-> hence he can pick spots and not get punished for it.

if you think he's better than jokic, then yes, he's underperformed, since jokic has played better.

The whole monoplozing offense thing might hold some validity if we were comparing him to giannis or lebron, but you are comparing him to Jokic, whose off-ball value is Only exceeded by Stephen wardell curry. Jokic's average time of possessoin is only longer than draymond green.

Laughs in anthony davis

[MyUniBroDavis]

On jokic:

I havent watched the nuggets much outside of a few games against the jazz but the knock on him vs the others is always gonna be his defense. I mean he was kind of atrocious on D when i saw him and i remember dray did a segment on it to, he just really sucked at rotating. Has that changed?

- i dont like net rtg over small samples but jesus christ his defense is +23 lmfao

For as good as he is offensively, and to be perfectly honest i definately dont think hes been better than davis on that end so far, theres just kind of a huge gap on D

Lebrons not even a conversation really. Its really impressive how he handled gobert, but its kinda offset by being part of the opposing teams offensive gameplan too

[Texas Chuck]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

Yep. It was telling when people were saying Luka was outplaying Kawhi.

I think those few people saying Luka was outplaying Kawhi weren't making any judgements about play style but are simply those who are too eager for the next shiny thing. Luka had a very satisfying playoff debut, but no question Kawhi was the best player in that series.

[eminence]

Luka also played Kawhi about even imo.

Now playing Doncic/Jokic even in back to back series is hugely impressive for Kawhi. And I think he had a very underrated RS, probably #3 imo (behind Giannis/LeBron, Harden close).

[Dupp]

Luka kind of did outplay Kawhi though, But that was because he had to. He had a far bigger load and faced far tougher defense than kawhi.


That doesn’t mean he’s better than kawhi. Kawhi did what he had to and played pretty flawlessly. I’m sure he had another gear he could have reached.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think kawhis consistency definately wins out in terms of him vs luka in their series.

Luka had 2 really good games, 2 bad games, 1 flawed game (the 11 turnovers really hurt even though its adjusting at the start) and one solid game

Kawhi had 2 good games, and 5 solid to good games

Luka hit higher highs, but kawhi was probably better in 4 out of 6 of their games, arguably 5 since i think game 6 is arguable

When it comes to load you have to remember thats by design. Yes he did face tougher defenses, but if we are talking about strictly who played better it was kawhi.

Even if you take into account the defense, kawhi still was better games 3,5 pretty handliy, probably better in 1 just cuz of those turnovers, and arguably better in 2 and 6 as well.

[freethedevil]

On jokic:

I havent watched the nuggets much outside of a few games against the jazz but the knock on him vs the others is always gonna be his defense. I mean he was kind of atrocious on D when i saw him and i remember dray did a segment on it to, he just really sucked at rotating. Has that changed?

- i dont like net rtg over small samples but jesus christ his defense is +23 lmfao

For as good as he is offensively, and to be perfectly honest i definately dont think hes been better than davis on that end so far, theres just kind of a huge gap on D

Lebrons not even a conversation really. Its really impressive how he handled gobert, but its kinda offset by being part of the opposing teams offensive gameplan too

I'd say jokic is a slight positive defensively frankly, one of the league's best pass swatters with minimal gambling, usually positionally sound, ect, but there is a positional fit issue with him being a center and not being an elite rim prtoector.

FWIW, impact metrics see him as a positive defende


I'm pretty confident he's better than davis offensively, by courtesy of being a avstly better creator. Davis is probably the best overall due to defense though.

[freethedevil]

I also think that a lot of people underrate Kawhi's offensive impact because he's not from new school of "heliocentric offense". He doesn't try to dominate the ball all the time and keep his teammates being involved more into creating offense. In part it's because he's not good enough at playmaking to make it work, but in part I believe that it's a stylistic choice and I like the way he's been playing in last two years. Your teammates have to be involved more that just catch and shoot situation.

There is nothing wrong with being in a Harden/Luka mold, but it doesn't mean that other styles are ineffective or inferior.

Yep. It was telling when people were saying Luka was outplaying Kawhi.

I think those few people saying Luka was outplaying Kawhi weren't making any judgements about play style but are simply those who are too eager for the next shiny thing. series.

Nah, prettty sure the argument was about howhe played, but go on strawmanning.

[freethedevil]

AD's back to being #1 with lebron not doing **** again.

[GSP]

On jokic:

I havent watched the nuggets much outside of a few games against the jazz but the knock on him vs the others is always gonna be his defense. I mean he was kind of atrocious on D when i saw him and i remember dray did a segment on it to, he just really sucked at rotating. Has that changed?

- i dont like net rtg over small samples but jesus christ his defense is +23 lmfao

For as good as he is offensively, and to be perfectly honest i definately dont think hes been better than davis on that end so far, theres just kind of a huge gap on D

Lebrons not even a conversation really. Its really impressive how he handled gobert, but its kinda offset by being part of the opposing teams offensive gameplan too

I'd say jokic is a slight positive defensively frankly, one of the league's best pass swatters with minimal gambling, usually positionally sound, ect, but there is a positional fit issue with him being a center and not being an elite rim prtoector.

FWIW, impact metrics see him as a positive defende


I'm pretty confident he's better than davis offensively, by courtesy of being a avstly better creator. Davis is probably the best overall due to defense though.

Jokic might be a slight positive in the regular season but its obvious now that he isnt in playoff matchups

Hes been hunted on pick and roll and given up alot at the rim with his piss poor shotmaking against the Spurs, Blazers (without Nurk) and Jazz (without Bogie) now. All those series went 7 in big part due to Jokics defense being gameplanned and exposed

[freethedevil]

On jokic:

I havent watched the nuggets much outside of a few games against the jazz but the knock on him vs the others is always gonna be his defense. I mean he was kind of atrocious on D when i saw him and i remember dray did a segment on it to, he just really sucked at rotating. Has that changed?

- i dont like net rtg over small samples but jesus christ his defense is +23 lmfao

For as good as he is offensively, and to be perfectly honest i definately dont think hes been better than davis on that end so far, theres just kind of a huge gap on D

Lebrons not even a conversation really. Its really impressive how he handled gobert, but its kinda offset by being part of the opposing teams offensive gameplan too

I'd say jokic is a slight positive defensively frankly, one of the league's best pass swatters with minimal gambling, usually positionally sound, ect, but there is a positional fit issue with him being a center and not being an elite rim prtoector.

FWIW, impact metrics see him as a positive defende


I'm pretty confident he's better than davis offensively, by courtesy of being a avstly better creator. Davis is probably the best overall due to defense though.

Jokic might be a slight positive in the regular season but its obvious now that he isnt in playoff matchups

Hes been hunted on pick and roll and given up alot at the rim with his piss poor shotmaking against the Spurs, Blazers (without Nurk) and Jazz (without Bogie) now. All those series went 7 in big part due to Jokics defense being gameplanned and exposed

Well him being an elite rim prtoector would make him one of the best defenders in the league. The question here is do you have to sacrifice rim prtoection or cna he fir with good rim protectors

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'd say jokic is a slight positive defensively frankly, one of the league's best pass swatters with minimal gambling, usually positionally sound, ect, but there is a positional fit issue with him being a center and not being an elite rim prtoector.

FWIW, impact metrics see him as a positive defende


I'm pretty confident he's better than davis offensively, by courtesy of being a avstly better creator. Davis is probably the best overall due to defense though.

Jokic might be a slight positive in the regular season but its obvious now that he isnt in playoff matchups

Hes been hunted on pick and roll and given up alot at the rim with his piss poor shotmaking against the Spurs, Blazers (without Nurk) and Jazz (without Bogie) now. All those series went 7 in big part due to Jokics defense being gameplanned and exposed

Well him being an elite rim prtoector would make him one of the best defenders in the league. The question here is do you have to sacrifice rim prtoection or cna he fir with good rim protectors

Oh what dude jokic was trash on D against the jazz lol. Eye test wise it was really really bad, results wise hes was fully attacked (by them).

I think its crazy to say his defense in the playoffs has been anything near positive. I mean I dont like plus minus metrics for super small samples but its kind of absurd that hes a +23 on defense alone, has the worst defensive pipm in the league by like outlier level amounts, and had a segment on tnt about his bad rotations