2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[wonderboy2]

When I look at these prospects. I actually see Ball and Wiseman having the most talent. Atleaet with Wiseman you know you are getting a good rebounder and shot blocker at the very least. I can see Ball averaging 8—10’assist a game in his prime. His vision is outstanding. I’ve been trying to talk myself into Hayes but just can’t see him turning more than just a serviceable pg. PGs that don’t have any burst or good outside shots usually don’t do well. I can see him getting clamped up in the NBA. Haliburton imo opinion is just as good of a passer if not better and a way better shooter. Haliburton is the better defender as well. I just can’t see the bulls taking someone like Hayes or Haliburton with the 4th pick.

[PaKii94]

I think you might be confusing Anthony Edwards with LaMelo Ball. Who's problems are shot selections and effort. Ball shot is broken. A trend with the Ball's. Also Lonzo was always thought of as a good defender. LeMelo defense like his shot is broken. Its not a mater of effort. He will get torched in the NBA.

No ball takes a lot of bad and early shots in the shot clock. Ball has a weird form but I don’t think it’s broken. A lot of players had weird forms but became better shooters over time. Lonzo shot has improved this year I mean it’s not great but it is improving. LaMelo has the length on defense but he just didn’t try in the NDL games. I’m not saying he’s going to be a good defender but think he can be solid with good coaching and better technique. Ball is tough to call he could be a bust but I can see a lot of things he does well and can bring to a team if he pans out. I mean what’s the worst that can happen with Ball? He’s already better than the guy that started 90 percent of the games at pg last season? All the top pgs in this draft have serious question marks. Haliburton handle and creation ability, shot off the dribble and shooting form are red flags. Killian Hayes turnover prone, lack of burst, below average athleticism, defense and poor outside shot are huge red flags.

I mean people keep thinking this can all be fixed, Its rarely ever gets fixed and when it is its much later in their career.

"Ball made just 51 percent of his shots around the basket, which was nine percent below the NBL league average, according to Spatial Jam."

"He made just 36 percent of his shots in the midrange, and shot about 10 percent worse than league average from above the break."

"He has really awful mechanics in regard to his defensive stance, often standing straight up and down. He gets blown by at the point of attack with relative ease despite being bigger and longer than most guys because of that. He’s the king of going for the recovery swipe where he tries to poke the ball free after a guy gets past him. His mechanics are also terrible when closing out on shooters. He hasn’t mastered taking shorter steps out while staying in his stance, as he’ll often get hit with the attempted blocked shot-blow-by, or closes out too short and gets hit with a jumper in his face. Just in general, he tries to take the easiest way out possible on defense while also trying to make a play."

https://theathletic.com/1540715/2020/01/22/fifteen-questions-about-lamelo-balls-stock-as-he-enters-the-pre-draft-process/

Ball pretty much is a negative in anything winning related. The only thing he has going for him is his height and his ability to pass. And I specifically say "ability to pass" because he is also a negative in making the right reads on when to shoot/pass. He CAN pass but usually doesn't make the right ones.

[drosestruts]

When I look at these prospects. I actually see Ball and Wiseman having the most talent. Atleaet with Wiseman you know you are getting a good rebounder and shot blocker at the very least. I can see Ball averaging 8—10’assist a game in his prime. His vision is outstanding. I’ve been trying to talk myself into Hayes but just can’t see him turning more than just a serviceable pg. PGs that don’t have any burst or good outside shots usually don’t do well. I can see him getting clamped up in the NBA. Haliburton imo opinion is just as good of a passer if not better and a way better shooter. Haliburton is the better defender as well. I just can’t see the bulls taking someone like Hayes or Haliburton with the 4th pick.

What are you basing the "Atleaet with Wiseman you know you are getting a good rebounder and shot blocker at the very least" comment on? His 3 college games?

For Ball, only 6 players average over 8 assists per game this season. It's a bold claim to suggest someone will be joining those ranks.

As someone very much on the Haliburton bandwagon, if he's a good passer, shooter, defender, has good size, etc....... why not take him 4th? Like, those are the things you should be looking for in a draft.

[Andi Obst]

And I specifically say "ability to pass" because he is also a negative in making the right reads on when to shoot/pass. He CAN pass but usually doesn't make the right ones.

That's absolutely not true.

[gobullschi]

His brother? Hasnt exactly lived up to being the #2 pick.

I’m not sure I would call Lonzo Ball a bust. Averaging 12 PPG, 6RPG, & 7 APG with elite defense at 22 years old, plus he’s dealt with some injuries, was traded to a new team, and had a baby out of wedlock in his short NBA career. I wouldn’t shut the door on him quite yet.

You can't win in the NBA with your point guard averaging 10-12 PPG & 6-7 APG. Now that doesn't mean he will be out of the NBA. But for the #2 pick that is not good value.

Did you read my post? Most NBA players don’t peak at 22 years old so he has plenty of time to develop into a player worthy of the #2 pick.

[Jcool0]

And I specifically say "ability to pass" because he is also a negative in making the right reads on when to shoot/pass. He CAN pass but usually doesn't make the right ones.

That's absolutely not true.

You sure?

According to the great Australian basketball advanced stats site Spatial Jam, the Hawks were only two points better per 100 possessions when he was on the floor offensively, and they were under one point of difference defensively. Even in the minutes when Ball was on the floor, the Hawks still only had a 113.2 offensive rating, a number that still would be worst in the league by about four points per 100 possessions (the NBL tends to be a higher scoring league on a per possession basis than the NBA). Overall, in the games Ball played, Illawarra had a -9.8 net rating, and in the games since, it has a -12.2 net rating.

[Andi Obst]

And I specifically say "ability to pass" because he is also a negative in making the right reads on when to shoot/pass. He CAN pass but usually doesn't make the right ones.

That's absolutely not true.

You sure?

According to the great Australian basketball advanced stats site Spatial Jam, the Hawks were only two points better per 100 possessions when he was on the floor offensively, and they were under one point of difference defensively. Even in the minutes when Ball was on the floor, the Hawks still only had a 113.2 offensive rating, a number that still would be worst in the league by about four points per 100 possessions (the NBL tends to be a higher scoring league on a per possession basis than the NBA). Overall, in the games Ball played, Illawarra had a -9.8 net rating, and in the games since, it has a -12.2 net rating.

Ah okay, so that obviously means his passing must suck then because nothing else goes into that. Thanks.

[bennjuiced34]

This draft is entirely about projection. Eye in the beholder type process. I think this draft could actually turn out some good players but you've gotta adjust your evaluation scale a bit to what they are (role players vs impact players).

Ball is the creme de la creme IMO. His profile has holes but he's got the most upside as a lead guard, playmaker. If AK and Eversley want a splash from this draft, that's the kid. Move up and get him.

More I think about it, staying at 4 isn't ideal. I really like Avdija but I'm not sure he's got the playmaking/shotmaking chops to be a 'star.' So either trade up or move down for more picks in this draft of 2021 capital.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Ball isn’t even Michael Carter Williams

[PaKii94]

That's absolutely not true.

You sure?

According to the great Australian basketball advanced stats site Spatial Jam, the Hawks were only two points better per 100 possessions when he was on the floor offensively, and they were under one point of difference defensively. Even in the minutes when Ball was on the floor, the Hawks still only had a 113.2 offensive rating, a number that still would be worst in the league by about four points per 100 possessions (the NBL tends to be a higher scoring league on a per possession basis than the NBA). Overall, in the games Ball played, Illawarra had a -9.8 net rating, and in the games since, it has a -12.2 net rating.

Ah okay, so that obviously means his passing must suck then because nothing else goes into that. Thanks.

passing is a positive for him. Reading the game isn't.

[Andi Obst]

passing is a positive for him. Reading the game isn't.

Please explain.

[Jcool0]

I’m not sure I would call Lonzo Ball a bust. Averaging 12 PPG, 6RPG, & 7 APG with elite defense at 22 years old, plus he’s dealt with some injuries, was traded to a new team, and had a baby out of wedlock in his short NBA career. I wouldn’t shut the door on him quite yet.

You can't win in the NBA with your point guard averaging 10-12 PPG & 6-7 APG. Now that doesn't mean he will be out of the NBA. But for the #2 pick that is not good value.

Did you read my post? Most NBA players don’t peak at 22 years old so he has plenty of time to develop into a player worthy of the #2 pick.

Or hear me out. He does not improve anymore and ends up a disappointment. Because that is the more likely outcome.

[wonderboy2]

When I look at these prospects. I actually see Ball and Wiseman having the most talent. Atleaet with Wiseman you know you are getting a good rebounder and shot blocker at the very least. I can see Ball averaging 8—10’assist a game in his prime. His vision is outstanding. I’ve been trying to talk myself into Hayes but just can’t see him turning more than just a serviceable pg. PGs that don’t have any burst or good outside shots usually don’t do well. I can see him getting clamped up in the NBA. Haliburton imo opinion is just as good of a passer if not better and a way better shooter. Haliburton is the better defender as well. I just can’t see the bulls taking someone like Hayes or Haliburton with the 4th pick.

What are you basing the "Atleaet with Wiseman you know you are getting a good rebounder and shot blocker at the very least" comment on? His 3 college games?

For Ball, only 6 players average over 8 assists per game this season. It's a bold claim to suggest someone will be joining those ranks.

As someone very much on the Haliburton bandwagon, if he's a good passer, shooter, defender, has good size, etc....... why not take him 4th? Like, those are the things you should be looking for in a draft.

I think Ball will be able to if he reaches his potential he has very good vision. I like Haliburton a lot but the thing is he has trouble making plays for himself. He also has trouble scoring off the bounce and shooting off the bounce. I like him but not at 4. If he was able to create for himself he would be my pick. He also lacks aggression. I want my point guards to be able to get buckets when needed. Look at all of the good Elite point guards. What do they have in common? They can get you buckets when they have to. Look at Lillard, Curry, Paul, Lowry, Walker, Irving. All of them are bucket getters. Brogdon who i hope Haliburton turns into can still shoot it off the bounce and take guys off the dribble when needed.

[wonderboy2]

Lonzo Ball has improved since he came into the league. I dont think Ball is a star right now but he’s definitely better than what the bulls had starting at point guard last year for 90 percent of their games.

[wonderboy2]

Honestly I think most of the Ball hate has mostly to do with his father. There are players that this board are in love with that are worst than Ball and have similar weaknesses but they continue to support that player.

[wonderboy2]

I’m done with point guards that can’t score, hesitant to make plays, or pass and go to the corner and have other players do the work. Give me a pg that can dictate the game and get buckets. Most of all the teams left or made it far had pgs that can get buckets when needed.

[Leslie Forman]

LaMelo's shooting form is literally a chest pass towards the rim. That sh*t is not "fixable" in any way whatsoever.

[gobullschi]

You can't win in the NBA with your point guard averaging 10-12 PPG & 6-7 APG. Now that doesn't mean he will be out of the NBA. But for the #2 pick that is not good value.

Did you read my post? Most NBA players don’t peak at 22 years old so he has plenty of time to develop into a player worthy of the #2 pick.

Or hear me out. He does not improve anymore and ends up a disappointment. Because that is the more likely outcome.

Based on what? I’d say he’s much more likely to improve his production than regress at his age.

When Lonzo Ball was drafted - a lot of the comparisons were to Jason Kidd. If you compare their first three seasons they’re nearly identical. Was Jason Kidd a bust?

[wonderboy2]

LaMelo's shooting form is literally a chest pass towards the rim. That sh*t is not "fixable" in any way whatsoever.

Lol Shawn Marions was worse and he became decent.

[Leslie Forman]

LaMelo's shooting form is literally a chest pass towards the rim. That sh*t is not "fixable" in any way whatsoever.

Lol Shawn Marions was worse and he became decent.

1. No it wasn't
2. No he didn't
3. Why the hell would you even want a point guard with Shawn Marion's jumpshot. That is basically Russell Westbrook with none of the athleticism, which would be a straight up awful player.

True centers without any versatility, guards who can't shoot a lick, it sounds like people here want to clone Wendell Carter and Kris Dunn instead of actually draft anybody who fits the 2020s NBA.