Is Kevin Knox a Keeper or a Bust?

[Chanel Bomber]

http://www.tankathon.com/players/kevin-knox

And this is why you don't ignore analytics when drafting players

« Analytics are just another tool in the tool box » - Scott Perry.

I knew we were screwed then.

The biggest reason for the demise of this franchise since 2013 has been its disdain for analytics. It’s the one common denominator between James Dolan, Phil Jackson, Steve Mills and Scott Perry. I don’t have high hopes for this new regime either tbh.

Nah...the quote was right. Analytics is a tool in the toolbox. You still gotta measure character (making sure dude doesn't get arrested), health (making sure dude doesn't get hurt every game), why an analytical model is recommending a player (so you don't get Joey Dorsey), why one model might not be good (PER), etc.

It's just that yea, they didn't care about it. Also, they saw a workout and got a huge boner. Too much arrogance. I also can't trust a small number of eyetests---people are too prone to their biases. The same posters who recommend DSJ are the same posters who recommended Sexton. Bust bust bust. But I think if we expand the number of eyetests, seek dissenting opinions, eliminating groupthink...they can have value.

You can’t look at other criteria at the expense of analytics. It’s not just another tool that you can disregard if you like other aspects of a player’s profile. Sure, other things matter too, no question. But you’ll be hard-pressed to find prospects with poor advanced stats in college become efficient NBA players. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. Passing the analytics test is a must.

[DOT]

« Analytics are just another tool in the tool box » - Scott Perry.

I knew we were screwed then.

The biggest reason for the demise of this franchise since 2013 has been its disdain for analytics. It’s the one common denominator between James Dolan, Phil Jackson, Steve Mills and Scott Perry. I don’t have high hopes for this new regime either tbh.

Nah...the quote was right. Analytics is a tool in the toolbox. You still gotta measure character (making sure dude doesn't get arrested), health (making sure dude doesn't get hurt every game), why an analytical model is recommending a player (so you don't get Joey Dorsey), why one model might not be good (PER), etc.

It's just that yea, they didn't care about it. Also, they saw a workout and got a huge boner. Too much arrogance. I also can't trust a small number of eyetests---people are too prone to their biases. The same posters who recommend DSJ are the same posters who recommended Sexton. Bust bust bust. But I think if we expand the number of eyetests, seek dissenting opinions, eliminating groupthink...they can have value.

You can’t look at other criteria at the expense of analytics. It’s not just another tool that you can disregard if you like other aspects of a player’s profile. Sure, other things matter too, no question. But you’ll be hard-pressed to find prospects with poor advanced stats in college become efficient NBA players. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. Passing the analytics test is a must.

Analytics tell you how good a player is, the eye test is supposed to tell you how good a player can be

Like, last year, there were a bunch of analytics saying Jarrett Culver was better than RJ, and we should consider him at 3

Culver was a better player in college, but RJ was the better prospect, and had a better year offensively this year. Obviously they're both only going into their second year, but I don't think any redraft would have Culver going above RJ, even if RJ wasn't a top 3 rookie last year

I don't think the analytics were that bad for Knox, he didn't have great stats, but it wasn't like he was a bad player in college, just not really good, and both the analytics and eye test would've said SGA was better.

[3toheadmelo]

Nah...the quote was right. Analytics is a tool in the toolbox. You still gotta measure character (making sure dude doesn't get arrested), health (making sure dude doesn't get hurt every game), why an analytical model is recommending a player (so you don't get Joey Dorsey), why one model might not be good (PER), etc.

It's just that yea, they didn't care about it. Also, they saw a workout and got a huge boner. Too much arrogance. I also can't trust a small number of eyetests---people are too prone to their biases. The same posters who recommend DSJ are the same posters who recommended Sexton. Bust bust bust. But I think if we expand the number of eyetests, seek dissenting opinions, eliminating groupthink...they can have value.

Since when was Sexton a bust? He’s averaging 21 PPG on 47/38/85 splits. He’d easily be our best guard, despite his short comings as a true PG.

You're right. He would be our best guard, but man, that ain't saying much. Hell, it might even be my own bias. I know if RJ put up those numbers, I'd be going nuts right now. So yea, I have to be aware of my own scouting issues and be more humble.

Maybe bust is too strong a word---he ain't Bargs or Bennett. At the same time, I wouldn't categorize him as a stud or a HR. I think the goal of every team is to get a chip. Where Sexton was drafted, I think you're hoping for a lead guard for a contender, or at least a starter level player on a championship level team. Sexton has 2 shortcomings. He's not a true PG, which is not a deal-breaker, but he's really FAR from a true PG in that he overdribbles and can't see, and that's a problem. Moreover, he has defensive shortcomings. I guess Cleveland could try to build around him. Sexton PG, floor spacer, role player/point forward/lead ball handler, role player, role player, with a 2nd option sprinkled in, but best case scenario for me is 6th man. That's not a bad result for him. Still, that ain't what Cleveland needs.

That's my point with guys like DSJ and Sexton. Both guys came in with similar worries. Defense, offense first, questionable shots. Sexton improved that shot, which is impressive, but unless he seriously breaks through somehow, he's gonna be at the 6th man slot. I don't think improving a shot is that easy...how many players in this league would be amazing if they had a shot? Giannis, Simmons, Frank, Westbrook, Rondo, Dort, Randle, etc...all these guys, you know they work hard and still can't do it. Give them a shot and a lot of them jump so many levels. What is Kawhi Leonard without a shot? What is Jaylen Brown without a shot? But with Sexton, he developed a shot...and his scenario is 6th man? A bit disappointing. DSJ didn't, and now he's where he is. The thing is, I think you can sorta project this. Yes, if these guys hit their potentials as playmakers, then it can be amazing. Most likely, though, they're not going to hit that level. And if they don't hit that level, what is their role?

That's where scouting and analytics both come in, I guess. How do you separate these guys? At some point, I can handle 1, maybe 2 big weaknesses. But if a prospect has several glaring weaknesses in playmaking, defense and possibly shooting, that's a shat-ton to deal with.

Sexton is probably more of a 6th man but not much players at his age can score as good as him. I think he is pretty underrated imo.

If we being honest, DSJ was looking pretty promising in his second season. He was playing defense, distributing the ball and scoring. He was looking like the future PG for us and many of us were excited about him and hoped he was going to take another leap this season.

Watch on YouTube

DSJ got co signs from all the big players in the league. Steph Curry, Lebron, Lillard, KD, Chris Paul, Bradley Beal, etc. Even the top coaches respected him as well. I don’t know what happened to him this season. Maybe the death of his step mom took a huge toll on him... or Fizdale ruined him... or a combination of both. Who knows. But its not like he’s Kevin Knox and didn’t have any success in the league. He was a legit good prospect until Fiz got his hands on him. Maybe Thibs and the new coaching staff can get him right. He does fit the mold of a Thibs PG if he gets back to his old self.

[dakomish23]

Try to grow any plant in a radioactive post apocalyptic wasteland and let me know how it turns out.

The kid has enough issues on his own, between his effort, focus and skill limitations. He wasn't even in my top 5 at our spot on draft night. With Steve Compete Mills, we were probably the worst possible franchise for him to come to.

Has he been a bust so far? Yes.

Will he stay a bust? Let's see where he ends up after we trade him, or in the less likely scenario, how he does for us as our organization actually decides to focus on player development.

[Chanel Bomber]

Nah...the quote was right. Analytics is a tool in the toolbox. You still gotta measure character (making sure dude doesn't get arrested), health (making sure dude doesn't get hurt every game), why an analytical model is recommending a player (so you don't get Joey Dorsey), why one model might not be good (PER), etc.

It's just that yea, they didn't care about it. Also, they saw a workout and got a huge boner. Too much arrogance. I also can't trust a small number of eyetests---people are too prone to their biases. The same posters who recommend DSJ are the same posters who recommended Sexton. Bust bust bust. But I think if we expand the number of eyetests, seek dissenting opinions, eliminating groupthink...they can have value.

You can’t look at other criteria at the expense of analytics. It’s not just another tool that you can disregard if you like other aspects of a player’s profile. Sure, other things matter too, no question. But you’ll be hard-pressed to find prospects with poor advanced stats in college become efficient NBA players. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. Passing the analytics test is a must.

Analytics tell you how good a player is, the eye test is supposed to tell you how good a player can be

Like, last year, there were a bunch of analytics saying Jarrett Culver was better than RJ, and we should consider him at 3

Culver was a better player in college, but RJ was the better prospect, and had a better year offensively this year. Obviously they're both only going into their second year, but I don't think any redraft would have Culver going above RJ, even if RJ wasn't a top 3 rookie last year

I don't think the analytics were that bad for Knox, he didn't have great stats, but it wasn't like he was a bad player in college, just not really good, and both the analytics and eye test would've said SGA was better.

I agree, just to clarify I wasn't implying that we should blindly take the guy with the best advanced stats. I very much care about the eye test, especially when it comes to upside (as you said). Hence I favored RJ over Culver, although the debate was an interesting one.

My point is, you absolutely can't take analytics out of the equation, and it was pretty clear the two previous regimes put very little stock in them.

[DickGrayson]

Not interested in him as a prospect or a talent.

Has a cool name, but his game is truly bare min. Even his flashes, just screens 8th best player on the team. Knick fans aren't harsh on their youth. Theres too much talent in this league blossoming for anyone to be amazed by what Kevin Knox has done in Kentucky and in the NBA. Literally theres guys in the 2nd round of this draft I'll take over Knox and Knox was drafted 9th. BUST.

[Infinitimind]

He was always known to be a player with bad body language, low motor, and gives up easily. Its hard to change that. No idea why the knicks drafted this guy knowing that. Hopefully no more of these type of players in this years draft. With that said i hope Thibs and his new coaching staff can get the best out of him. So far a bust to me!!

having a coach that actually acts like he believes (whether true or not) in you does a LOT for a players confidence. You can't just bench a guy, give him no development and expect him to grow

Perfect. This organization has done nothing but hurt development of our kids. Either playing muiday over frank, even though we all knew muiday was gone next year. Just wasted time and opportunity. They did the same thing with Knox this past season.

[Infinitimind]

BUST fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

the only one who fooled you was the Knicks organization and their lack of a developmental staff WHICH, we did not have before

knicks development has nothing to do with knox being bad.

knox was only drafted because fizdale saw him 1 on 1 during workouts.

mike schmitz Espn top draft expert called him a top 5 talent. So try again. Who you want Mikal Bridges? Who at this point is 3 year older Knox and is just a role player averaging 9 points

[Garbagelo]

there needs to be a 3rd option, a project with questionable mental make up but might succeed with the right system around him

Where the Knicks have failed isn't the development staff but this dawg mentality, eat what you kill mindset

You can't do that with young players in this day and age

You can't bring in vets and with the promise of guaranteed playing time and then expect your youth to earn their minutes, IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT, IT WILL NEVER WORK LIKE THAT.

[rajajackal]

there needs to be a 3rd option, a project with questionable mental make up but might succeed with the right system around him

Where the Knicks have failed isn't the development staff but this dawg mentality, eat what you kill mindset

You can't do that with young players in this day and age

You can't bring in vets and with the promise of guaranteed playing time and then expect your youth to earn their minutes, IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT, IT WILL NEVER WORK LIKE THAT.

the Knicks have* failed to adequately develop players. what they haven't failed to do is draft talent. i agree with the remedy you prescribe in that i hope new management constructs a roster that facilitates our young players' development in either G-League or NBA minutes rather than having them wallow in practice. i think this absolutely decimates a player like DSJ, for example. that's a knock on his own mental fortitude, but at the end of the day your job is to get the best result from your basketball team.

players like Randle, who are attempting to take a step in their career that isn't accessible to them, and players like Payton, who are playing to continue having careers, aren't a good fit. they're good enough to beat out neophytes for floor time, but are ultimately playing for themselves.

CP3 in OKC is the rich man's version of one sort of veteran NY needs to bring on board; winning mentality, experience winning at a high level, wisdom to accept whatever role is best for team success. the other type of player i'd like to target is a young rising star nearing their first max extension, a la Ingram & Mitchell.

if Rondo gets a ring with the Lakers this year...let me stop.

[MadGrinch]

Knox's issues aren't inability but consistency , some inconsistency is due to skill , some of it due to physical maturity .

i'm content to wait , i think as he fills out he's gonna be a 4 , and a very mobile one . he was always a project and its been that way since the beginning and now he's playing for a coach that clearly favors players with his perceived strengths (shooting ,movement without the ball, defensive versatility), i expect a big leap in his productivity

[Zenzibar]

Knox's issues aren't inability but consistency , some inconsistency is due to skill , some of it due to physical maturity .

i'm content to wait , i think as he fills out he's gonna be a 4 , and a very mobile one . he was always a project and its been that way since the beginning and now he's playing for a coach that clearly favors players with his perceived strengths (shooting ,movement without the ball, defensive versatility), i expect a big leap in his productivity

Payne is going to get into him and here's hoping he takes Kevin under his personal project.
The kid has talent and will probably end up a 4 as he gets bigger as you said.

Been a team Frank member since day 1 and will stay a Kevin rooter until he's no longer here.

[TheGreenArrow]

This thread is going to look soooo stupid in a couple of months.

Just wait on it.....

[AmaresKnees]

Bust... Knox is the worst player I have ever watched, and I can confidently say he's the worst player in the NBA.

Chris Smith by far

[Zenzibar]

You guys are tripping.
Knox is going to nice under Thibs and Payne.

Watch on YouTube

[dakomish23]

He was always known to be a player with bad body language, low motor, and gives up easily. Its hard to change that. No idea why the knicks drafted this guy knowing that. Hopefully no more of these type of players in this years draft. With that said i hope Thibs and his new coaching staff can get the best out of him. So far a bust to me!!

having a coach that actually acts like he believes (whether true or not) in you does a LOT for a players confidence. You can't just bench a guy, give him no development and expect him to grow

Perfect. This organization has done nothing but hurt development of our kids. Either playing muiday over frank, even though we all knew muiday was gone next year. Just wasted time and opportunity. They did the same thing with Knox this past season.

Don’t forget Jack over Frank

[dakomish23]

there needs to be a 3rd option, a project with questionable mental make up but might succeed with the right system around him

Where the Knicks have failed isn't the development staff but this dawg mentality, eat what you kill mindset

You can't do that with young players in this day and age

You can't bring in vets and with the promise of guaranteed playing time and then expect your youth to earn their minutes, IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT, IT WILL NEVER WORK LIKE THAT.

That last paragraph. Perfection.

[lcd88]

having a coach that actually acts like he believes (whether true or not) in you does a LOT for a players confidence. You can't just bench a guy, give him no development and expect him to grow

Perfect. This organization has done nothing but hurt development of our kids. Either playing muiday over frank, even though we all knew muiday was gone next year. Just wasted time and opportunity. They did the same thing with Knox this past season.

Don’t forget Jack over Frank

Can we blame the coaches? The management gave no job security to them so they play the guys that can hopefully save their jobs. They expecting too much from them with a trash roster. And then Mills playing the blame game. Best organization ever

[Jeff Van Gully]

You guys are tripping.
Knox is going to nice under Thibs and Payne.

Watch on YouTube

yeah. not time to give up on him yet. there's something to work with.

[NYKnickerbocker]

I think he’ll find his way soon. Even with how horrible he looked last year and with inept coaching and team structure around him. He improved in some areas. He actually blocked more shots in less minutes and got more assist with less ball handling responsibilities compared to his rookie season.

Now I don’t think he’ll be a star. But he can be a very solid player with his tools. I believe this season he’ll establish at least his floor as a player. Unless a unexpectedly good offer comes by, I’m in it for the long haul with Kev