Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($)

[j-ragg]

I personally think it’s time for a full on rebuild for the Magic and wait for the 2021 season when Isaac is back and healthy. Would you be willing to move Aaron Gordon to the Minnesota Timberwolves for their 17th pick, James Johnson, and Jacob Evans.

That would give the Magic two first round picks: the 15th and 17th to either move into the top 10 or pick two rookies where draft experts say the middle is where all the depth players and strength of the draft. Johnson would be an expiring contract that frees up 16 million for the 2021 free agency class that has a lot of talent. Jeremy Evans is a 1st round shooting guard from the Warriors system. Cheap flyer for a season and see what he has.

Orlando barely made the playoffs and I would rather stack up cap room and draft picks to wait to build a real team with the right building blocks and potential for the 2021-22 season.

What say you: Aaron Gordon to Minnesota for the 17th pick, Expiring James Johnson 16 million, and former 1st round pick SG Jacob Evans?

We've already had this discussion around here with Culver in place of Evans. Opinions were mixed. Nobody is going to take that deal with Evans offered instead. I don't think even Gordon's biggest detractors would be amenable to dumping his contract for the 17th pick and his detractors tend to be detractors of Culver as well, due to the same deficiency (the shot isn't there).

Regardless, this front office isn't going to tear it down to tank. They know that they would just be setting the table for the next administration. They've shown no inclination to take even a modest step backwards. They'd rather use roster spots on Ennis, Clark, MCW, or Birch, as opposed to some sort of developmental type. Our two-way contracts were used on a 26-year-old Amile Jefferson and a 30-year-old Josh Magette as break glass in case of emergency scenarios. Their plan is to fight for the eighth seed, then watch a miracle unfold when a healthy 42-win roster manages to dispatch everyone on their path to the title. I'm not saying they wouldn't trade Gordon, but they aren't going to sacrifice a shot at the eighth seed for the 17th pick in the draft. There is zero chance that happens.

I saw J-ragg write that Gordon is probably worth a mid round pick and an expiring contract.

First, who the hell knows what anyone is worth. I said that in a post where I was explaining our guys probably don't have the value a lot of homers on the board think.

I could easily see that being his value though, he had his worst shooting season in a while. But I get what Xatticus is saying. This front office is so obsessed with getting in even if it's as a sub-.500 8th seed, that he can't see them dealing Gordon for that. I hope he's correct, I'm probably the biggest AG homer on the board these days (we are a dying breed).

[MagicMatic]

Lets be very clear here. There are two types of teams in the NBA: contenders and builders. Everything else in the middle is nonsense. Orlando is neither of those things and is doing neither effectively. Making the playoffs in the East doesn’t remotely put them in the “contending” category. If you are OK with the FO sitting directly in the middle of that equation, then there is nothing left to say.

Again, in today's NBA where the incentive to tank has been taken away. what are the alternatives for the team like the Magic stuck in the middle?

Because if you say tear it all down and still end up with 4th, 5th, 6th picks during a 4-5 year rebuild plan similar to the Hennigan era. Was it really all worth it?

Again, it’s NOT about “tanking” in the slightest. This is what people continually fail to grasp in this argument, thinking that’s the end goal here. Trading some of these vets for youth and potential is always an avenue. If that roster earns a higher lottery pick, then so be it. It’s less about “tanking” and more about picking a direction for the future. They are doing themselves zero favors by choosing neither.

Anyone would trade this roster/assets with Denver, Dallas, New Orleans, or Memphis with no hesitation (if not delusional). All teams that rebuilt in a fraction of the time that have huge ceilings. (And all in the west nonetheless)

I’ll answer the question for you point blank. No, it was never worth it. This team has been in purgatory since the Ibaka trade. They’ve just been shuffling chairs on the titanic since.

[MagicFan101]

Lets be very clear here. There are two types of teams in the NBA: contenders and builders. Everything else in the middle is nonsense. Orlando is neither of those things and is doing neither effectively. Making the playoffs in the East doesn’t remotely put them in the “contending” category. If you are OK with the FO sitting directly in the middle of that equation, then there is nothing left to say.

Again, in today's NBA where the incentive to tank has been taken away. what are the alternatives for the team like the Magic stuck in the middle?

Because if you say tear it all down and still end up with 4th, 5th, 6th picks during a 4-5 year rebuild plan similar to the Hennigan era. Was it really all worth it?

The 4th-5th-6th pick in recent years was good enough to snag guys like Trae Young, De’aaron Fox, Jammal Murray (7th) and Jonathan Isaac.

I’m fine landing there with a chance to win a higher pick.

Good players are found in that range all the time ... yes, as well as busts.

[Driguez]

Rebuild. I can't watch anymore of hennys guys.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

Agreed

[JF5]

Lets be very clear here. There are two types of teams in the NBA: contenders and builders. Everything else in the middle is nonsense. Orlando is neither of those things and is doing neither effectively. Making the playoffs in the East doesn’t remotely put them in the “contending” category. If you are OK with the FO sitting directly in the middle of that equation, then there is nothing left to say.

Again, in today's NBA where the incentive to tank has been taken away. what are the alternatives for the team like the Magic stuck in the middle?

Because if you say tear it all down and still end up with 4th, 5th, 6th picks during a 4-5 year rebuild plan similar to the Hennigan era. Was it really all worth it?

Again, it’s NOT about “tanking” in the slightest. This is what people continually fail to grasp in this argument, thinking that’s the end goal here. Trading some of these vets for youth and potential is always an avenue. If that roster earns a higher lottery pick, then so be it. It’s less about “tanking” and more about picking a direction for the future. They are doing themselves zero favors by choosing neither.

Anyone would trade this roster/assets with Denver, Dallas, New Orleans, or Memphis with no hesitation (if not delusional). All teams that rebuilt in a fraction of the time that have huge ceilings. (And all in the west nonetheless)

I’ll answer the question for you point blank. No, it was never worth it. This team has been in purgatory since the Ibaka trade. They’ve just been shuffling chairs on the titanic since.

... For myself I can careless as to what direction this team chooses but that's the definition of a FULL rebuild that would last 4-5 years. Magic fans complained about such a direction during the Hennigan era because the guys didn't grow quickly enough.

So this is the new direction of drafting well and growing internally with good quality vets is the route they're taking.

Either way fans have complained so I don't know...

[MagicMatic]

Again, in today's NBA where the incentive to tank has been taken away. what are the alternatives for the team like the Magic stuck in the middle?

Because if you say tear it all down and still end up with 4th, 5th, 6th picks during a 4-5 year rebuild plan similar to the Hennigan era. Was it really all worth it?

Again, it’s NOT about “tanking” in the slightest. This is what people continually fail to grasp in this argument, thinking that’s the end goal here. Trading some of these vets for youth and potential is always an avenue. If that roster earns a higher lottery pick, then so be it. It’s less about “tanking” and more about picking a direction for the future. They are doing themselves zero favors by choosing neither.

Anyone would trade this roster/assets with Denver, Dallas, New Orleans, or Memphis with no hesitation (if not delusional). All teams that rebuilt in a fraction of the time that have huge ceilings. (And all in the west nonetheless)

I’ll answer the question for you point blank. No, it was never worth it. This team has been in purgatory since the Ibaka trade. They’ve just been shuffling chairs on the titanic since.

... For myself I can careless as to what direction this team chooses but that's the definition of a FULL rebuild that would last 4-5 years. Magic fans complained about such a direction during the Hennigan era because the guys didn't grow quickly enough.

So this is the new direction of drafting well and growing internally with good quality vets is the route they're taking.

Either way fans have complained so I don't know...

And for myself, I could care less if we finish bottom 10 if it means we are landing talent with higher ceiling than we have currently. If not, you are banking on whatever pick 15-17 will become with a capped roster. Safe to say that outcome is no different than the past two seasons with slight variable. Also, you don’t know what the outcome of a full rebuild is and how long that takes. Dallas is in the playoffs two years after selecting Doncic. This after what people consider our “tanking” season.

People complaining that we were bad in seasons where we were still acquiring talent don’t know what they are talking about. You can’t force a team with limited talent to become a contender. This team doesn’t even have an all star on it and people think we don’t need to acquire talent? We are in the former, not the latter. Our FO and some delusional fans just won’t admit it.

[Bensational]

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

Iwundu replaced him in the games Fournier missed this season and we did pretty well out of it. So we can replace him with an in house option, or chase an MLE guy like TLC.

Reasons would be:

- improved play
- better value
- creating room/forcing Fultz into more of a lead role

No, I mean a realistic scenario. Iwundu barely made our rotation against Bucks and his fg% was 29,1 %. TLC is average reserve, he has no business starting. Both options you presented would result in:

worse play (you can dislike Fournier but he is much better player than both Iwundu and TLC)
worse value (for me TLC on MLE is worse than Fournier at 17M)
way worse situation for Fultz where defense can collapse on him every possesion.

The record without Fournier this season demonstrated improved play, not worse play. You can consider Fournier a superior player, but the team didn't just manage without him, we beat some of the better teams we've played this season. And Fournier was a complete non-factor in the playoffs two seasons in a row.

Fournier on $17M is terrible value. Ross is far superior value and far more responsible for the team's wins that Fournier largely has been. If any of our players had actually been on good value deals we likely would have seen more movement before now. TLC actually stepped up in the bubble and the playoffs on a team that had no star help. I'd take those results for $8M less a season. He wouldn't be a waste of the MLE like Aminu is.

[Ducklett]

If you guys think Evan, AG, and Vuc are trade "assets" go see what the Trades and Transaction board thinks about them. It isn't much better than offers we were getting 2 years ago.

[MagicMatic]

If you guys think Evan, AG, and Vuc are trade "assets" go see what the Trades and Transaction board thinks about them. It isn't much better than offers we were getting 2 years ago.

Less is more at this point.

[TheGlyde]

Ideally he opts in and we move him after his solid year in 2019-20. His value isn't great but it's unlikely to get any higher than it is now.

If the Magic are in a playoff spot at the trade deadline and the Magic opt to ride him to the playoffs on his expiring (like they did with Vuc), then at that point I'd hope for a sign and trade... I really don't want Fournier on the roster on a new contract in 2021-22...

If the choice was re-sign after 2020-21 or let him walk for nothing... Well that's a crappy choice and as a franchise you shouldn't put yourself in that position, but if we are in that spot I would probably let him go, which I know contradicts what I said previously, but for me, the only reason to keep Fournier any longer is to flip him for a different asset. He has taken this team as far as he can.

I don't hate the guy, he tries, for the most part, but on this roster hes asked to do more than his skillset allows, and he has been here so long that he won't take a backseat to younger players, even if they were proving to be more effective next season, so it's just time to move on.

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

I will try to give you a more detailed answer than the guys just saying 'addition by subtraction', but damn, given all the scenarios I put forward to not end up in the position of letting Evan walk for nothing, I feel like when your wife asks you 'If I die in a car crash, who would you date?'

Ie: I haven't even really considered the possibility of Evan walking for nothing, because having Evan finish out the 2020-21 season and his contract in a Magic uniform is so far away from what I would like to see in 12(+) months time I'd rather not even think about it.

If you don't trade him before the deadline, then the assumption is its because the team is playing well, and he is playing well, and that the team makes the playoffs again next season. Could he play his way into a spot where he has an even better season, and the Magic have a better one?... Well I guess it is possible (I just don't see it), but if that happens and you can resign him... sigh... go for it, I guess... If he ups his value in that way sign and trade options could be available.

What is more likely at his age, and as Markelle develops, is that Evan's role diminishes somewhat and/or he regresses, but, to answer the "why would you let him walk for nothing?" question, well, there is a possibility that it is out of Orlando's hands whether they want to do that or not.

There is a possibility the Magic try and trade him and can't get reasonable value, try and re-sign him and can't come to reasonable terms, and so using one of our possible assets on a young SG/shooter who could develop into a replacement is a smart play if that is a possibility.

So if talks with Evan trend that way, I'd use pick #15 or Use our MLE this offseason (I'd use the other as a replacement for DJ and re-sign MCW).

Failing that (Watch us draft another SF/PF tweener as BPA ) Use the draft pick from 2021, or the MLE from 2021.

Theres 4 options there to try and find someone younger who may not be a better player, but could be a better fit.

You outlined that Evan is a great spot up shooter, and not as effective as a pnr ball handler (still solid sans playofffs, sure), but this is the role many would like to see him in more: Spot up, and hope that Markelle can develop into something special as a creator... But Evan won't take that role because
a) contract year and
b) he has been here so long and he's been given the ball enough that he thinks he's capable of putting us on his back...

He isn't, and until he takes a lesser role in the offence it will be very hard to determine who is (I'm not convinced Markelle is the saviour, but I am convinced Evan isn't).

So I don't think Evan will take that lesser role, but a draft pick/MLE signing as a replacement might, and here is where you arrive at your possible 'addition by subtraction' destinations.

[MasterGMer]

Ideally he opts in and we move him after his solid year in 2019-20. His value isn't great but it's unlikely to get any higher than it is now.

If the Magic are in a playoff spot at the trade deadline and the Magic opt to ride him to the playoffs on his expiring (like they did with Vuc), then at that point I'd hope for a sign and trade... I really don't want Fournier on the roster on a new contract in 2021-22...

If the choice was re-sign after 2020-21 or let him walk for nothing... Well that's a crappy choice and as a franchise you shouldn't put yourself in that position, but if we are in that spot I would probably let him go, which I know contradicts what I said previously, but for me, the only reason to keep Fournier any longer is to flip him for a different asset. He has taken this team as far as he can.

I don't hate the guy, he tries, for the most part, but on this roster hes asked to do more than his skillset allows, and he has been here so long that he won't take a backseat to younger players, even if they were proving to be more effective next season, so it's just time to move on.

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

I will try to give you a more detailed answer than the guys just saying 'addition by subtraction', but damn, given all the scenarios I put forward to not end up in the position of letting Evan walk for nothing, I feel like when your wife asks you 'If I die in a car crash, who would you date?'

Ie: I haven't even really considered the possibility of Evan walking for nothing, because having Evan finish out the 2020-21 season and his contract in a Magic uniform is so far away from what I would like to see in 12(+) months time I'd rather not even think about it.

If you don't trade him before the deadline, then the assumption is its because the team is playing well, and he is playing well, and that the team makes the playoffs again next season. Could he play his way into a spot where he has an even better season, and the Magic have a better one?... Well I guess it is possible (I just don't see it), but if that happens and you can resign him... sigh... go for it, I guess... If he ups his value in that way sign and trade options could be available.

What is more likely at his age, and as Markelle develops, is that Evan's role diminishes somewhat and/or he regresses, but, to answer the "why would you let him walk for nothing?" question, well, there is a possibility that it is out of Orlando's hands whether they want to do that or not.

There is a possibility the Magic try and trade him and can't get reasonable value, try and re-sign him and can't come to reasonable terms, and so using one of our possible assets on a young SG/shooter who could develop into a replacement is a smart play if that is a possibility.

So if talks with Evan trend that way, I'd use pick #15 or Use our MLE this offseason (I'd use the other as a replacement for DJ and re-sign MCW).

Failing that (Watch us draft another SF/PF tweener as BPA ) Use the draft pick from 2021, or the MLE from 2021.

Theres 4 options there to try and find someone younger who may not be a better player, but could be a better fit.

You outlined that Evan is a great spot up shooter, and not as effective as a pnr ball handler (still solid sans playofffs, sure), but this is the role many would like to see him in more: Spot up, and hope that Markelle can develop into something special as a creator... But Evan won't take that role because
a) contract year and
b) he has been here so long and he's been given the ball enough that he thinks he's capable of putting us on his back...

He isn't, and until he takes a lesser role in the offence it will be very hard to determine who is (I'm not convinced Markelle is the saviour, but I am convinced Evan isn't).

So I don't think Evan will take that lesser role, but a draft pick/MLE signing as a replacement might, and here is where you arrive at your possible 'addition by subtraction' destinations.

If we have to wait till the draft deadline to make a decision, I'd rather let him walk for nothing now. Because half a year's team building and development is critical at this point. I'd draft a SG/SF player or use the MLE on that kind of player.

That to me, will prepare us better for the future than what we have now.

[TheGlyde]

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

I will try to give you a more detailed answer than the guys just saying 'addition by subtraction', but damn, given all the scenarios I put forward to not end up in the position of letting Evan walk for nothing, I feel like when your wife asks you 'If I die in a car crash, who would you date?'

Ie: I haven't even really considered the possibility of Evan walking for nothing, because having Evan finish out the 2020-21 season and his contract in a Magic uniform is so far away from what I would like to see in 12(+) months time I'd rather not even think about it.

If you don't trade him before the deadline, then the assumption is its because the team is playing well, and he is playing well, and that the team makes the playoffs again next season. Could he play his way into a spot where he has an even better season, and the Magic have a better one?... Well I guess it is possible (I just don't see it), but if that happens and you can resign him... sigh... go for it, I guess... If he ups his value in that way sign and trade options could be available.

What is more likely at his age, and as Markelle develops, is that Evan's role diminishes somewhat and/or he regresses, but, to answer the "why would you let him walk for nothing?" question, well, there is a possibility that it is out of Orlando's hands whether they want to do that or not.

There is a possibility the Magic try and trade him and can't get reasonable value, try and re-sign him and can't come to reasonable terms, and so using one of our possible assets on a young SG/shooter who could develop into a replacement is a smart play if that is a possibility.

So if talks with Evan trend that way, I'd use pick #15 or Use our MLE this offseason (I'd use the other as a replacement for DJ and re-sign MCW).

Failing that (Watch us draft another SF/PF tweener as BPA ) Use the draft pick from 2021, or the MLE from 2021.

Theres 4 options there to try and find someone younger who may not be a better player, but could be a better fit.

You outlined that Evan is a great spot up shooter, and not as effective as a pnr ball handler (still solid sans playofffs, sure), but this is the role many would like to see him in more: Spot up, and hope that Markelle can develop into something special as a creator... But Evan won't take that role because
a) contract year and
b) he has been here so long and he's been given the ball enough that he thinks he's capable of putting us on his back...

He isn't, and until he takes a lesser role in the offence it will be very hard to determine who is (I'm not convinced Markelle is the saviour, but I am convinced Evan isn't).

So I don't think Evan will take that lesser role, but a draft pick/MLE signing as a replacement might, and here is where you arrive at your possible 'addition by subtraction' destinations.

If we have to wait till the draft deadline to make a decision, I'd rather let him walk for nothing now. Because half a year's team building and development is critical at this point. I'd draft a SG/SF player or use the MLE on that kind of player.

That to me, will prepare us better for the future than what we have now.

Whether he walks for nothing now is Evans choice though, not ours.

If he opts in we can trade him whenever, and drafting or using the MLE on a possible replacement/understudy would be a good move IMO.

If your replacement is playing well, then you have even more reason to trade Evan who’s expiring would be attractive for some teams and vet production could be interesting for contenders looking for one more gun in the holster. If your replacement is struggling (think 2019 Aminu), then maybe you ride Evan a little longer.

Its very possible if Aminu had played up to what the Magic hoped (and didnt get injured) that AG would have been traded last season.

Aminu sucked, JI got injured = AG stays.

[penny_nz]

I know GMs can't say what they really feel in these interviews, however I wish they also wouldn't treat fans like idiots. Saying this is a well balanced roster is just absurd. There's nothing wrong with saying we have a strong defensive core and would like to add some scoring pieces. At the end of day winning in is one thing that can bring in fans, playing an attractive style of basketball will sure as hell help as well.

If we run it back with minimal change and use the 'if only we were healthy card' I'll be gutted

[pepe1991]

I can't wrap my head around notion how Evan walking away in FA can be viwed as good scenario.

1) Magic have no cap space, nobody will replace him, even if they draft SG that guy won't be 30 mpg solid contrubitor from day one anyway. Much rather pretty crappy NAW type guard that will go through hell of a struggle during rookie year

2) asset less. Simply one player less to trade.
This is very important. Magic will probably have no cap space for next year also, so you have to keep as many assets as possible to flip them into players you view as "future".

3). even worst shooting. Magic were 14# among teams that took most wide open 3s. 27th in efficiency from that shots. Evan was ONLY Magic player who was plus shooter whole year.


What Evan needs is to be involved more as spot up shooter and less of ballhandler. Main reason why he is ballhandling a lot is because PG can't shoot and there is no better secundary playmakers on roster.

Even if Magic somehow do have cap space( I repeat, they don't have any) they would still struggle to replace Evan.

[BadMofoPimp]

This is what I expected the team to do and I agree. There is no way they are going to trade away everyone and try to become the worst team in the league for 3 straight seasons praying to god they get lucky to win a superstar with very very low odds of that happening just to end up in the same position they are in now which has very very high odds of happening.

[BadMofoPimp]

Iwundu replaced him in the games Fournier missed this season and we did pretty well out of it. So we can replace him with an in house option, or chase an MLE guy like TLC.

Reasons would be:

- improved play
- better value
- creating room/forcing Fultz into more of a lead role

No, I mean a realistic scenario. Iwundu barely made our rotation against Bucks and his fg% was 29,1 %. TLC is average reserve, he has no business starting. Both options you presented would result in:

worse play (you can dislike Fournier but he is much better player than both Iwundu and TLC)
worse value (for me TLC on MLE is worse than Fournier at 17M)
way worse situation for Fultz where defense can collapse on him every possesion.

The record without Fournier this season demonstrated improved play, not worse play. You can consider Fournier a superior player, but the team didn't just manage without him, we beat some of the better teams we've played this season. And Fournier was a complete non-factor in the playoffs two seasons in a row.

Fournier on $17M is terrible value. Ross is far superior value and far more responsible for the team's wins that Fournier largely has been. If any of our players had actually been on good value deals we likely would have seen more movement before now. TLC actually stepped up in the bubble and the playoffs on a team that had no star help. I'd take those results for $8M less a season. He wouldn't be a waste of the MLE like Aminu is.

Personally, I don't think Ross is superior. He may hit clutch shots in the fourth, but the rest of the game he is a high volume chucker with low FG percentages. Fournier shoots better in the field 46.7 >> 40.3 and at the 3 @ 39.9 >> 35.1. Most games I get tired of watching Ross go 4-14 being non existent for the team just waiting 3 to 5 games to see a good game from Ross. At least Fournier is more consitent game to game. It is like people just remember that one good game where Ross went off and think, "gee man, Ross is so superior" all while forgetting how awful he was the 3 consecutive games before that.

[Bensational]

I can't understand how the people who point to the MLE signing of Aminu as writing on the wall that Gordon is gone can't understand that an MLE signing could also potentially replace Fournier.

[zaymon]

I can't understand how the people who point to the MLE signing of Aminu as writing on the wall that Gordon is gone can't understand that an MLE signing could also potentially replace Fournier.

Its not Aminu MLE siging. Its drafting Isaac, drafting Okeke AND signing Aminu. Players who should replace Gordon in the future are high lottery and mid first round picks not veteran signing.
We have no one to replace Fournier at the moment, MLE signing wont change it. Maybe it could out of context but you have remind this years free agents class. I will do a breakdown soon.

[Tarheel]

I can't understand how the people who point to the MLE signing of Aminu as writing on the wall that Gordon is gone can't understand that an MLE signing could also potentially replace Fournier.

I don't think it's a direct comparison - it's more having an adequate replacement and depth at the position that make AG expendable to improve the team in other areas.

Having a MLE signing replace Fournier doesn't improve the team overall unless Fournier opts in and we trade him for other pieces. Using TLC as an example, does replacing Fournier directly with him make us better? Subjective (I agree that our offense flows better without Evan), but from a talent perspective no.

Does signing TLC for the MLE and trading Fournier for a piece of equivalent value that better balances the team make us better? Far more likely.

[drsd]

Aminu sucked, JI got injured = AG stays.

Long before Aminu hurt his knee, his play was sub-standard for his contract. With Okeke an unknown and Isaac certain to be out, if the Magic trades Gordon, then next year would be an overt stated that the team is not trying to win.


Question for TheGlyde, is there any universe where Iwundu is resigned?


..