2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[ardee]

Also this goes without saying but if the nuggets pull it off jokic prolly goes top three

idk about top 3. I think LeBron/AD/Kawhi are kinda setting themselves apart right now.

Has Kawhi outplayed Jokic that much in this series itself? Production wise I'd give the edge to the big guy tbh. Kawhi is obviously better defensively.

Kawhi has still been excellent this series but he has IMO come back some down to Earth compared to the Mavs one.

[BelgradeNugget]

1. Porter Jr has the second worst defensive rtg out of nuggets players that play minutes
2. Jokic has the worst defensive rtg
3. I mean, people were saying they were targetting him on here and on everywhere, there were segments on tnt about then targetting him, videos on youtube about it etc
4. Harris and millsap are both among the best in net def rtg for thise playing significant minutes, but also more impressive considering they play more mintt it es with jokic than some of the others

1. We were talking about the Nuggets defense in the [b]playoffs. I gave you their defensive rating in the playoffs and try to explain to you why these numbers can be misleading and why a few games that you watched them play may be too same semple size. [/b]
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2019-20&TeamID=1610612743
2. I never said he played trough COVID. Read again. I said after COVID. I never asked did you or anyone played through flu or influenza. It can affect your energy level after you are healthy again. Jokic said he was asymptomatic and didn't have any effect on him. If you know anything about him you will know that is exactly what he will say. Gobert said he had a lack of energy from time to time even 2 months after he tested negative. Jokic said he wasn't tired in game one of the Clippers series. Murray sad he was exhausted. Don't believe Jokic all the time.
3. Stats that I posted are before the bubble (on feb/26/2020). In the bubble he was even worst then in the first few games of the POs. Maybe it has something to do with COVID or not. Who knows.
3. You can say that DWS, DBPM, DRPM, DPS... or whatever are bad stats. But somehow if you look at the players listed at the top defensively we saw players that are somehow considered good except for Jokic who is listed at the top but is considered terrible.
4. I don't want to argue with you. I see you are a serious basketball fan. You simply didn't follow Jokic. I watched every Nuggets game in the last 3 years. Here are the facts: Jokic is terible at rim protection. He was bad on D in the bubble and at the start POs. He is much better than that and is above average due to his basketball IQ

Watch on YouTube

1. That was in the playoffs
2. You cant make excuses that he hasnt said lol
3. I have been saying jokic is a ok defender thats performed horribly in the playoffs on d
4. Ok lol fine agree to disagree then

Just one question:
I gave you a link to back up what I was saying. Klick it. Please give me a link to "1. Porter Jr has the second-worst defensive rtg out of nuggets players that play minutes"
Second question: If you watched the game tonight was he better defensively than in Utah series?

[Homer38]

Also this goes without saying but if the nuggets pull it off jokic prolly goes top three

idk about top 3. I think LeBron/AD/Kawhi are kinda setting themselves apart right now.

Has Kawhi outplayed Jokic that much in this series itself? Production wise I'd give the edge to the big guy tbh. Kawhi is obviously better defensively.

Kawhi has still been excellent this series but he has IMO come back some down to Earth compared to the Mavs one.

Kawhi was great in game 1,bad in game 2 vs Denver and after that he was very good,but not at a superstar level.

[Doctor MJ]

Has Kawhi outplayed Jokic that much in this series itself?

So here's the thing that makes all this stuff so interesting to me:

I really don't know how to compare a player like Jokic to a player like Kawhi. What I know is that Denver has built its offense around Jokic and the Clippers has built theirs around Kawhi and that they function completely differently. Focusing on production and even skill strengths and weaknesses still misses the fact each player is defining a completely different context.

It's a bit like Kareem vs Walton. If you look to evaluate them based on what plays can be specifically attributed to each player, it's Kareem, but you can't say Kareem can do what Walton does, so if Walton ends up having greater evidence of +/- impact on a better team, I feel I have to side with Walton.

Now, I'm not saying all that aligns here and I'll ad that Walton's clear advantage over Kareem was defense, which isn't the case here. But speaking as a guy who despite loving the way the Nuggets played never thought they'd come close to a title, if they start winning chips with Jokic as the clear fulcrum, it's going to be hard for me to stay skeptical.

[BelgradeNugget]

Has Kawhi outplayed Jokic that much in this series itself?

So here's the thing that makes all this stuff so interesting to me:

I really don't know how to compare a player like Jokic to a player like Kawhi. What I know is that Denver has built its offense around Jokic and the Clippers has built theirs around Kawhi and that they function completely differently. Focusing on production and even skill strengths and weaknesses still misses the fact each player is defining a completely different context.

It's a bit like Kareem vs Walton. If you look to evaluate them based on what plays can be specifically attributed to each player, it's Kareem, but you can't say Kareem can do what Walton does, so if Walton ends up having greater evidence of +/- impact on a better team, I feel I have to side with Walton.

Now, I'm not saying all that aligns here and I'll ad that Walton's clear advantage over Kareem was defense, which isn't the case here. But speaking as a guy who despite loving the way the Nuggets played never thought they'd come close to a title, if they start winning chips with Jokic as the clear fulcrum, it's going to be hard for me to stay skeptical.

The thing is you can't compare him to anybody in the history of the league. It's like you have positions in the basketball:
1. Point guard
2. Shooting guard
3. Small forward
4. Power forward
5. Center
6. Nikola Jokic

[Jordan Syndrome]

LeBron
Kawhi
Harden
Giannis
AD
-
Luka
Jokic
Butler
Tatum
Lillard
-
Paul
Embiid
Gobert
Bam
Lowry

This is how i feel about my Top 15 right now.

Are your '-' used to separate tiers or simply every 5 players?

I was just doing it for every 5th player for visual purposes...

Tier-based would be more difficult to rank. I would need bigger PS sample sizes for some players.

I agree and thanks for the info.

I would comfortably have Jokic top 5 though. He is the best offensive center I have ever seen.

[MyUniBroDavis]

1. We were talking about the Nuggets defense in the [b]playoffs. I gave you their defensive rating in the playoffs and try to explain to you why these numbers can be misleading and why a few games that you watched them play may be too same semple size. [/b]
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2019-20&TeamID=1610612743
2. I never said he played trough COVID. Read again. I said after COVID. I never asked did you or anyone played through flu or influenza. It can affect your energy level after you are healthy again. Jokic said he was asymptomatic and didn't have any effect on him. If you know anything about him you will know that is exactly what he will say. Gobert said he had a lack of energy from time to time even 2 months after he tested negative. Jokic said he wasn't tired in game one of the Clippers series. Murray sad he was exhausted. Don't believe Jokic all the time.
3. Stats that I posted are before the bubble (on feb/26/2020). In the bubble he was even worst then in the first few games of the POs. Maybe it has something to do with COVID or not. Who knows.
3. You can say that DWS, DBPM, DRPM, DPS... or whatever are bad stats. But somehow if you look at the players listed at the top defensively we saw players that are somehow considered good except for Jokic who is listed at the top but is considered terrible.
4. I don't want to argue with you. I see you are a serious basketball fan. You simply didn't follow Jokic. I watched every Nuggets game in the last 3 years. Here are the facts: Jokic is terible at rim protection. He was bad on D in the bubble and at the start POs. He is much better than that and is above average due to his basketball IQ

Watch on YouTube

1. That was in the playoffs
2. You cant make excuses that he hasnt said lol
3. I have been saying jokic is a ok defender thats performed horribly in the playoffs on d
4. Ok lol fine agree to disagree then

Just one question:
I gave you a link to back up what I was saying. Klick it. Please give me a link to "1. Porter Jr has the second-worst defensive rtg out of nuggets players that play minutes"
Second question: If you watched the game tonight was he better defensively than in Utah series?

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612743/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=ON_OFF_RATING&dir=1

That def rtg u sent is a box score estimate based off the teams box score, or something like that. its not the defensive rtg when theyre on the floor

Dude it was at like 10 am est i missed it but hes improved over the course of the series on d after a really game first game or two. However, we arent saying was he good in general we are saying has his playoff run been top tier.

I think it being top 3-5 is fair. Lebron and AD are locks for top two. Jokic has been better than kawhi this series, but not by an extent that if kawhi outperforms him in game 7 id put kawhi above

My POY rankings atm are

Lebron
Davis
Kawhi
Jokic
Giannis

With jokic the main concern is his rim protection and those quick slasher types off the pick and roll. In particular, against guys you cant drop against, on high pick and rolls. Hes decent at certain coverages on the pick and roll, sometimes looks a bit off blitzing and stuff but his positioning on rim protection when its not a "funnel" drive or that kind of thing is pretty bad. Hes not a bad defender neccessarily and over the course of an entire RS hes probably average or a bit above average

In the playoffs because of those games where hes lapsed and been targetted, which hasnt been every game, i dont see how one can put his impact at Lebron or ADs level when both have arguably been better offensively as well, and have been top 2 defenders in the playoffs.

I think a better way to phrase it would be jokic is attackable in certain matchups, id say against either guys like lillard or curry where you 100% cannot drop against them, or those uber slashers where giving them room just gives them that extra step.

This wont effect him for every team, but its different from other centers who are more versatile in different pick and roll coverages because his other strength on defense are mainly hes a good post defender because hes thicc. I think the main really good defensive big men, giannis, davis, gobert, and bam are all versatile in their and have other really good strengths. Think about a guy like brook lopez.

Impactful incredible defender but not nearly as good in the playoffs, the bucks drop coverage works against most teams but it was horrible against the heat and because his main strengths are positional and rim peotection, and he wasnt great in other areas his defensive imprint on the game paled in comparison to his RS self

Whereas a guy like lebron as a wing wont have as much peak impact but it wont be mitigated as much from certain playstyles because his impact on d is versatility, catching mistakes, and momentum plays

[limbo]

I agree and thanks for the info.

I would comfortably have Jokic top 5 though. He is the best offensive center I have ever seen.

Yes, Jokic has a strong argument for best offensive C ever. But overall, i think AD has an argument over him.

If we're talking about the ability to create/run an offensive system around a player and have him and his teammates produce the best possible offense i'd take Jokic over AD. And this is arguably the most important aspect of a player's individual value in basketball. HOWEVER. The same notion exists on the other end of the court. When we talk about the ability to create a dominant defensive system around a player, then AD gets a clear nod over Jokic in that case.

So right now the argument is are you taking the guy who will give you a better and more consistent offense as the 1st option, or are you taking a guy that won't be as good as the 1st option, but will be ATG as a 1b or 2nd option and will be much more impactful on defense? To me it's a fair conversation to have.

Also, i value versatility a lot in players. Versatility is basically the ability to play multiple roles/lineups on your team on both ends of the court and provide a high level of impact but also resiliency. And i think AD is better in that regard than Jokic is, because he can play alongside another Big with greater success and also the smallball C. On defense he has the versatility to guard more players and switch more effectively without conceding mismatches. Basically AD's versatility grants your team more resiliency especially in the Playoffs where individual styles/matchups become more important, making your team more adaptable and less exploitable... While with Jokic, you kind of have to live and die with who he is on both ends, and if you're up against a team that has some favourable matchups, you can't really adjust to the same extent you can with AD by going small or big or throwing in different lineups to maybe confuse the opposing team.

[Baski]

Id have less trouble believing that if over the course of two series that the nuggets werent the worst defensive team with him on vs elite on defense with him off the floor, his defensive pipm being so bad its basically an outlier, and if the games against teh clippers werent a similar story, especially that horrid first one, which might have been as bad as any jazz one

Hes decent at positioning in certain coverages but a lack of athleticism and bad instincts as a rim protector hinder him heavily

I dunno whether this is accurate. Basically every game I've seen him in, he flat out doesn't lift his arms at all at the rim. It's both bizarre and hilarious at the same time.
I support that he's not atrocious in the RS but he's been so yikes this and last playoffs. Dude was sticking to Gobert at the 3 pt line a lot of the time while Jazz players were strolling to the rim for layups lol. And when he was at the rim his hands only moved to catch the ball after it fell through the hoop.
It's so inexplicable to me, like who tf does that? That's not bad instincts. It's just......something else entirely. And to think it's being defended as "not that bad"

[70sFan]

So we're going to pretend that we have two best offensive centers ever in the league right now? Talk about recency bias...

[MyUniBroDavis]

So we're going to pretend that we have two best offensive centers ever in the league right now? Talk about recency bias...

Yeah Alot of people are calling jokic a GOAT tier offensive center but i really dont know if i agree with that.

Someone mentioned he had goat tier off ball offensive impact but id honestly say his off ball offensive impact is probably a large weakness compared to other atg centers.

Sure he stretches the floor but as a off ball rim attacker/cutter which is important he just doesnt attract as much attention as other atg offensive centers or even superstar centers today, which is very important for a big man, and he isnt great finishing off the roll either I feel.

AD is a weird case because he has been having an atg tier playoff run but onv his rs was no where near goat offensive center.

I think there might be a legitimate argument hes having ONE OF the great playoff runs for a center. Only 55.6% of his shots are assisted (which isnt far off from a giy like duncan), hes hitting 27.5/11/4 in only 35 minutes, 58/39/75 (61.6% inside the arc) with DPOY tier defense this playoffs.this depends of he continues this ofc

With jokic hes a legitimately moster post guy that os probably the GOAT BIG MAN PASSER, but i dont think hes the goat offensive center.

[Dutchball97]

So we're going to pretend that we have two best offensive centers ever in the league right now? Talk about recency bias...

Jokic is a versatile and efficient scorer but there have definitely been centers with a bigger scoring impact like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem and D-Rob. Where Jokic sets himself apart is his playmaking though, which is also part of someone's offensive game. I don't think the sum of his scoring and passing exceeds the offensive impact of some all-time great centers but I'm not surprised he's in the discussion.

[70sFan]

So we're going to pretend that we have two best offensive centers ever in the league right now? Talk about recency bias...

Jokic is a versatile and efficient scorer but there have definitely been centers with a bigger scoring impact like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem and D-Rob. Where Jokic sets himself apart is his playmaking though, which is also part of someone's offensive game. I don't think the sum of his scoring and passing exceeds the offensive impact of some all-time great centers but I'm not surprised he's in the discussion.

I'd give him that he's comfortably better offensive player than Robinson.

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah Jokic is definitely not the best offensive center of all-time. What are we doing here people? We can appreciate a guy without damning him with silly hyperbole.

[No-more-rings]

Is it consensus that this has been the best version of Harden in his career? This was his clear best postseason performance of his career and his regular season was great as usual.

[HeartBreakKid]

Is it consensus that this has been the best version of Harden in his career? This was his clear best postseason performance of his career and his regular season was great as usual.

Probably won't be the consensus, but it's the most impressed I've been with him personally.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Yeah Jokic is definitely not the best offensive center of all-time. What are we doing here people? We can appreciate a guy without damning him with silly hyperbole.

Jokic may not be the best offensive center ever and I would never argue that as I never watched Wilt or Prime Kareem consistently. I did start watching basketball in the mid-80's on a consistent basis and since then Jokic is the best offensive center I have ever seen, Shaq and Hakeem included.

[limbo]

Lol, it's not like there's a lot of competition for best offensive center ever... There's like Kareem, Shaq and that's about it...

And i can hear 70s Fan screaming from the distance "Wilt, Moses, Hakeem..."

Yeah, Wilt who needed 7 years of NBA basketball experience to figure out how to carry an above average offense in the 60s when the league was still in teething stages and then the trick was for him to touch the basketball less and make less decisions on the ball...

Moses... Bro, I'm done talking about Moses on these boards... He was able to take advantage of an era that was more inclined towards physicality/tenacity than skill or much of any strategic sophistication. And even then he sacrificed defensive positioning in favor of grabbing off. boards. This dude has no passing game...

Hakeem was great and all but was a significantly worse passer and shooter than Jokic. Hard to directly compare because of vast differences in eras (and yet, the Hakeem and Jokic era has more in common than when Wilt and Moses played...)

People got to remember that 15-10 years ago guys like Dwight and Duncan were considered thr paragons of offensive Centers... Even a guy like Pau Gasol. And indeed, these guys were able to be do a good job at carrying offenses to varying degrees... But none of these guys had Jokic touch, range, vision, creativity... Jokic is really a Center version of Larry Bird.

[Jaivl]

So we're going to pretend that we have two best offensive centers ever in the league right now? Talk about recency bias...

Jokic is a versatile and efficient scorer but there have definitely been centers with a bigger scoring impact like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem and D-Rob. Where Jokic sets himself apart is his playmaking though, which is also part of someone's offensive game. I don't think the sum of his scoring and passing exceeds the offensive impact of some all-time great centers but I'm not surprised he's in the discussion.

I'd give him that he's comfortably better offensive player than Robinson.

And Hakeem, really.

[Doctor MJ]

So we're going to pretend that we have two best offensive centers ever in the league right now? Talk about recency bias...

I lol'ed but let's break this down:

The more meaningful evaluation asks who is better at what.

It's not a question of whether Jokic deserves to be in the conversation for best passing big man of all time. He's there, and that's a big deal.

AD's the sneaky one because he may be the best ever as an off-ball target, which is precisely what LeBron needs. As such while it still feels like too much to put AD in the conversation for best offensive big in history, he may well be the GOAT for what LeBron needs out of a big.

Now, it's clear cut that guys like Kareem and Shaq do some big things better than either and I have no problem with anyone putting them as the top 2, but Jokic and AD have some real outlier talents on offense, and in both cases this is a shock. Jokic because he wasn't a big time prospect, AD because he was supposed to be a defensive specialist. Their emergence has changed the landscape of the league at present.