Giannis Thread - 2 Time MVP - The Contract discussions

[SirChurros]

People taking this whole Giannis-needs-someone-to-take-the-ball-out-of-his-hands thing way too far. You can't actually turn him into Rudy Gobert/DeAndre Jordan and you can't be using your MVP superstar as some off-ball decoy. We're still going to be putting the ball in his hands a lot, and you absolutely need to, because he's still one of the most unstoppable players in league history. It's not even about the jump-shot for me anymore. He just needs to make better/quicker decisions.

Perhaps I'm misreading what people are saying, but I think people are saying that he needs someone to take the ball away from him when teams scheme him into going 1-on-5 and making terrible decisions.

For as passionate as Giannis is, he's not that smart of a player and he's definitely stubborn. I think you're always going to have a hard time convincing him he can't go 1-on-5 against a wall and score. When that starts happening, that's when you need a guy to take the ball away from him and settle things offensively. And that's when you need some better options/play-calling offensively.

[jschligs]

People taking this whole Giannis-needs-someone-to-take-the-ball-out-of-his-hands thing way too far. You can't actually turn him into Rudy Gobert/DeAndre Jordan and you can't be using your MVP superstar as some off-ball decoy. We're still going to be putting the ball in his hands a lot, and you absolutely need to, because he's still one of the most unstoppable players in league history. It's not even about the jump-shot for me anymore. He just needs to make better/quicker decisions.

Agreed, he will be the primary ball handler and his decision making needs to improve. We also need to run a few more sets to get him the ball in better positions sprinkled in.

[Ron Swanson]

I think it's pretty simple and probably the reason why people are so frustrated. To put it plainly, this team is only going to go as far as Giannis develops as an on-ball offensive player. He needs to learn from this and get better. There's literally no other way.

As much as I've been pounding the trade for CP3 drum since the playoff loss, him, or whoever else you bring in to "take the ball out of his hands" in those half court sets, is just putting a band-aid on a gushing wound if Giannis isn't gonna make that next step. No one expected even prime Dwyane Wade to "bail out" Lebron when they teamed up in Miami. LeBron had to evolve as an offensive player, even with one of the greatest supporting casts ever, for them to finally get over the championship hump.

[SirChurros]

I think it's pretty simple and probably the reason why people are so frustrated. To put it plainly, this team is only going to go as far as Giannis develops as an on-ball offensive player. He needs to learn from this and get better. There's literally no other way.

As much as I've been pounding the trade for CP3 drum since the playoff loss, him, or whoever else you bring in to "take the ball out of his hands" in those half court sets, is just putting a band-aid on a gushing wound if Giannis isn't gonna make that next step. No one expected even prime Dwyane Wade to "bail out" Lebron when they teamed up in Miami. LeBron had to evolve as an offensive player, even with one of the greatest supporting casts ever, for them to finally get over the championship hump.

You can do both, though. You can band-aid the situation to keep the team competitive and compete for a title now while he still works on making that step.

[SirChurros]

And as far as Lebron goes, I think it's clear Giannis isn't Lebron. As much as I don't like him, Lebron led some pretty **** teams to the Finals. Teams weren't able to create a scheme defensively to prevent the Cavs from winning.

[leroyjw10]

People taking this whole Giannis-needs-someone-to-take-the-ball-out-of-his-hands thing way too far. You can't actually turn him into Rudy Gobert/DeAndre Jordan and you can't be using your MVP superstar as some off-ball decoy. We're still going to be putting the ball in his hands a lot, and you absolutely need to, because he's still one of the most unstoppable players in league history. It's not even about the jump-shot for me anymore. He just needs to make better/quicker decisions.

Agreed, he will be the primary ball handler and his decision making needs to improve. We also need to run a few more sets to get him the ball in better positions sprinkled in.

This. Giannis goes 1-on-5 because Bud hasn't been creative enough to put him in a position where he doesn't have to go 1-on-5. Two postseasons in a row. I'd just hope that having an obvious PnR master would make it clearer to Bud what needs to be done and how to do it.

[Fotis St]

People taking this whole Giannis-needs-someone-to-take-the-ball-out-of-his-hands thing way too far. You can't actually turn him into Rudy Gobert/DeAndre Jordan and you can't be using your MVP superstar as some off-ball decoy. We're still going to be putting the ball in his hands a lot, and you absolutely need to, because he's still one of the most unstoppable players in league history. It's not even about the jump-shot for me anymore. He just needs to make better/quicker decisions.

Perhaps I'm misreading what people are saying, but I think people are saying that he needs someone to take the ball away from him when teams scheme him into going 1-on-5 and making terrible decisions.

For as passionate as Giannis is, he's not that smart of a player and he's definitely stubborn. I think you're always going to have a hard time convincing him he can't go 1-on-5 against a wall and score. When that starts happening, that's when you need a guy to take the ball away from him and settle things offensively. And that's when you need some better options/play-calling offensively.

He can't outsmart a Wall or drive through it, noone can, so he attacks and kicks out ...
to whom ? He doesn't have good cutters to hit, and BUD's offensive scheme is Giannis and
4 players standing in invisible blue boxes at corner and side 3s !!!

I said it in game threads, even with the current roster, we should "place" the Wall at the worst place for the opponents possible.
The worst place is really deep at the post where they can't recover, this works if your teammates can make warmup WIDE OPEN 3s. Or we could/should initiate the offense through Lopez at the post, let him go at Bam, force him to get into foul trouble, try to force a double team in the post with either Brook or Khris posting up. We just kept running our stupid Giannis top of the key offense which it was proven trash from the Toronto Series.

All I am saying is that I have no doubt Giannis as is without improving one bit (just the FTs) he can lead a Championship Team

[emunney]

And as far as Lebron goes, I think it's clear Giannis isn't Lebron. As much as I don't like him, Lebron led some pretty **** teams to the Finals. Teams weren't able to create a scheme defensively to prevent the Cavs from winning.

This is a little revisionist to me. The Cavs slipped through once in LeBron's first stretch with them, but the Celtics also took him down twice in the second round doing stuff not dissimilar from what teams are throwing at Giannis. Will never forget watching game 5 in 2010 in a bar with a lifelong Cavs fan as the Celtics took him completely out of a competitive headspace.

[mke_design]

And as far as Lebron goes, I think it's clear Giannis isn't Lebron. As much as I don't like him, Lebron led some pretty **** teams to the Finals. Teams weren't able to create a scheme defensively to prevent the Cavs from winning.

This is a little revisionist to me. The Cavs slipped through once in LeBron's first stretch with them, but the Celtics also took him down twice in the second round doing stuff not dissimilar from what teams are throwing at Giannis. Will never forget watching game 5 in 2010 in a bar with a lifelong Cavs fan as the Celtics took him completely out of a competitive headspace.

They're also completely different players stylistically.

[greekbuck34]

Jokic has the best 3p shooters.
The Lakers shooting at an insane clip in the playoffs.
Dallas main strentgh is shooting the 3.
Clippers has the most depth.
Miami shot the lights out against us.
Boston the same.
Toronto is basically a 3 and D team.

Remember Giannis having 50point games and 35p triple doubles and our offense not being enough against Dallas without Doncic or Denver.

The Bucks supporting cast is trash compare to those teams. In the Orlando series where we were struggling Giannis was our 3d best 3p shooter and 3rd in attempts.

What's easier?
Top expect from Giannis to become the GOAT and start shooting 3s or Kobe midrangers over 2-3 guys or build a good shooting team just like the rest of the league with a proper point guard to run the offense and PNR with Giannis?

We using random RS games to talk the supporting cast down? What about the season as a whole when they still outscored the opponent with Giannis on the bench, or when they were playing at a 70 win pace for most of the year? I also remember Giannis not being our best player against Miami and our only win in the series coming in a game Giannis played 11 minutes

This is a Bucks team problem. Both the supporting cast and Giannis problem because of the supporting cast.

Nah, the Giannis problem is a Giannis problem. Stop blaming everyone else for the limitations in his game. The supporting cast is flawed and needs to improve, no one is disputing this. Coaching needs to improve as well. But you guys try to pin the blame for Giannis' struggles on everyone but himself.

Our only win against Miami came from Giannis scoring 19p in 11 minutes, Miami relaxing like everything was over when he went down and Khris making contested shot after contested shot to close out the game. Next game without Giannis we were so bad on offense that Giannis bullying 3 players seemed like a top tier offense in our minds.

The only way for the Bucks to look like contenders is Giannis playing his game which is attacking the paint and the missmatches at the post and kicking out for wide open shots even from average shooters.

Giannis shooting midrangers and 3s should only be the cherry at the top and not the solution against the wall tactic. The supporting cast and the coach should try to find a way to punish this defense otherwise we have no hope unless Giannis magically learns to shoot and does everything by himself.

[Wooderson]

For those into small sample on/off numbers

Look how much Bledsoe has been killing the Bucks in the playoffs....

19 Celtics
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 104.1
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 109.7
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 62.4%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 62.6%

19 Raptors
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 101.8
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 105.1
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 50.7%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 54.3%

20 Heat
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 95.2
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 104.0
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 51.0%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 60.8%

[JayMKE]

Clearly there is the a blueprint to beating Giannis and making life hell for him, "the wall" is the mountain he has to climb until he addresses certain holes in his game. It's a lot to ask of Giannis as great of a player as he is to be better, I think clearly free throws are biggest area of concern and also to somehow avoid so many offensive fouls and turnovers. Putting on muscle I think effects free throws and getting beat up, my personal theory but obviously the great majority of it is mental. He really is one of the most inconsistent shooters I've ever seen in that he can sometimes look perfect & swish the ball thru the hoop then airball the next one. Playing off the ball and in the post more I think would help his game, his 3 point shooting is very inconsistent but I don't think it will ever stop with Bud's let it fly mantra.

A guy like CP3 who could run the offense and get the ball to Giannis is spots where he can more easily score and create offense when defenses wall off Giannis. I've sold myself on the guy obviously and I don't know who else that is available that would compliment the team nearly as well.

I think the break was hard on this entire team, the were in a rhythm heading into the tail end of the season only to sit out for months and then played in some stupid disney bizarro world in the midst of the apocalypse instead of at home. Maybe things could have been different if it had been a normal year, it be our own little asterisk.

[Chapter29]

Jokic has the best 3p shooters.
The Lakers shooting at an insane clip in the playoffs.
Dallas main strentgh is shooting the 3.
Clippers has the most depth.
Miami shot the lights out against us.
Boston the same.
Toronto is basically a 3 and D team.

Remember Giannis having 50point games and 35p triple doubles and our offense not being enough against Dallas without Doncic or Denver.

The Bucks supporting cast is trash compare to those teams. In the Orlando series where we were struggling Giannis was our 3d best 3p shooter and 3rd in attempts.

What's easier?
Top expect from Giannis to become the GOAT and start shooting 3s or Kobe midrangers over 2-3 guys or build a good shooting team just like the rest of the league with a proper point guard to run the offense and PNR with Giannis?

We using random RS games to talk the supporting cast down? What about the season as a whole when they still outscored the opponent with Giannis on the bench, or when they were playing at a 70 win pace for most of the year? I also remember Giannis not being our best player against Miami and our only win in the series coming in a game Giannis played 11 minutes

This is a Bucks team problem. Both the supporting cast and Giannis problem because of the supporting cast.

Nah, the Giannis problem is a Giannis problem. Stop blaming everyone else for the limitations in his game. The supporting cast is flawed and needs to improve, no one is disputing this. Coaching needs to improve as well. But you guys try to pin the blame for Giannis' struggles on everyone but himself.

This.

Giannis was terrible in the series and we lost. He is our star and to win we need his star numbers. I blame Giannis' lack of output first and foremost. Now is some of that scheme? Sure. Most is on him though. No go to move. Poor shot. and can't hit a FT. So wall of Giannis and force the rest of the team to beat you ....IF Giannis doesn't decide to force the action and try and plow throw the wall.

Giannis should have had 15-20 assists per game given the way they played. Now of course some of those may be hockey assists but whatever. Of course the supporting cast didn't play well either.

So, yeah....fun times.

Oh and on the Giannis leaving front? So Giannis you're going to leave us (he didn't say that of course) because we are not good enough? Well....you're a major reason for that early exit. And you will bring yourself with you when you go to Miami you know?

[Nowak008]

Ok, but if you don't want Brogdon at 20 mil a year, at least you get the TPE.

If Giannis felt that strongly about keeping Brogdon, Brogdon would be a Buck right now.

I agree with James1980 - it is clear that letting Brogs walk was for money. The owners wanted to save money and talked themselves into making a Spurs like move to keep some flexibility. Giannis feelings were not at all apart of the equation. I don't buy at all this "If Giannis wanted Brogdon back, he would have been back."

This is all on the owners, it was their decision all the way.

[theFireBlanket]

For those into small sample on/off numbers

Look how much Bledsoe has been killing the Bucks in the playoffs....

19 Celtics
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 104.1
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 109.7
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 62.4%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 62.6%

19 Raptors
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 101.8
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 105.1
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 50.7%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 54.3%

20 Heat
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 95.2
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 104.0
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 51.0%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 60.8%

Bledsoe's defense is great but they aren't fitting well on that end and he makes a lot of offensive errors. Either EB becomes a turbo defender 6th man who plays when Giannis sits or you move him. Then he could focus on driving instead of shooting as well.

[greekbuck34]

Jokic has the best 3p shooters.
The Lakers shooting at an insane clip in the playoffs.
Dallas main strentgh is shooting the 3.
Clippers has the most depth.
Miami shot the lights out against us.
Boston the same.
Toronto is basically a 3 and D team.

Remember Giannis having 50point games and 35p triple doubles and our offense not being enough against Dallas without Doncic or Denver.

The Bucks supporting cast is trash compare to those teams. In the Orlando series where we were struggling Giannis was our 3d best 3p shooter and 3rd in attempts.

What's easier?
Top expect from Giannis to become the GOAT and start shooting 3s or Kobe midrangers over 2-3 guys or build a good shooting team just like the rest of the league with a proper point guard to run the offense and PNR with Giannis?

We using random RS games to talk the supporting cast down? What about the season as a whole when they still outscored the opponent with Giannis on the bench, or when they were playing at a 70 win pace for most of the year? I also remember Giannis not being our best player against Miami and our only win in the series coming in a game Giannis played 11 minutes

This is a Bucks team problem. Both the supporting cast and Giannis problem because of the supporting cast.

Nah, the Giannis problem is a Giannis problem. Stop blaming everyone else for the limitations in his game. The supporting cast is flawed and needs to improve, no one is disputing this. Coaching needs to improve as well. But you guys try to pin the blame for Giannis' struggles on everyone but himself.

This.

Giannis was terrible in the series and we lost. He is our star and to win we need his star numbers. I blame Giannis' lack of output first and foremost. Now is some of that scheme? Sure. Most is on him though. No go to move. Poor shot. and can't hit a FT. So wall of Giannis and force the rest of the team to beat you ....IF Giannis doesn't decide to force the action and try and plow throw the wall.

Giannis should have had 15-20 assists per game given the way they played. Now of course some of those may be hockey assists but whatever. Of course the supporting cast didn't play well either.

So, yeah....fun times.

Oh and on the Giannis leaving front? So Giannis you're going to leave us (he didn't say that of course) because we are not good enough? Well....you're a major reason for that early exit. And you will bring yourself with you when you go to Miami you know?

I think this is the line we disagree the most here. Like Giannis being the cancer of our offense and whoever he goes next it's going to be the same unless he starts shooting 3s and fadeways over 2-3 players while everybody else watches him without movement.

I mean you just have to imagine Giannis besides a top 5-10 player, capable shooters and a proper adaptable coach.

Imagine coaches thinking.
Screw Curry and Klay just put a wall in front of Giannis, instant double team him at the post and we will win easily.
Screw Lowry and Van Vleet. Put a wall in front of Giannis, instant double team and the rest will stand still missing everything for an entire series.
Screw AD. Just put a wall in front of Giannis, instant double team at the post and I'm sure AD will not average 30 with dpoy defense.
Screw Luka and KP. Just put a wall in front of Giannis....
Screw Kemba, Smart and Tatum.
Screw Miami's shooters, Dragic and Butler. Just put a wall in front of Giannis and they will lose.


I think the last two season's screwed our minds really bad. Giannis should just cruise the next season, let the rest of the roster show their true capabilities (if we go again with Bledsoe as our PG and old, slow inconsistent shooters) and just play the playoffs as a 4th-5th seed without real expectations.

But no that's not Giannis way. He will give again his 100% on both sides and we will overestimate our roster into oblivion.

[SirChurros]

Why are people pretending like we don't have capable shooters? We've been about in the middle of the league as far as 3P% goes the past two seasons and that's with Giannis taking 3-5 per game and bringing the average down.

[coolhandluke121]

For those into small sample on/off numbers

Look how much Bledsoe has been killing the Bucks in the playoffs....

19 Celtics
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 104.1
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 109.7
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 62.4%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 62.6%

19 Raptors
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 101.8
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 105.1
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 50.7%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 54.3%

20 Heat
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe ON: 95.2
Giannis Ortg Bledsoe OFF: 104.0
Giannis TS% Bledsoe ON: 51.0%
Giannis TS% Bledsoe OFF: 60.8%

Bledsoe's defense is great but they aren't fitting well on that end and he makes a lot of offensive errors. Either EB becomes a turbo defender 6th man who plays when Giannis sits or you move him. Then he could focus on driving instead of shooting as well.

Agreed. Also, he should do the same thing for Bledsoe's numbers with and without Giannis. I see it working both ways. Bledsoe and Giannis have never been the right fit because neither one can shoot and Giannis needs to be surrounded by shooters. However, Bledsoe deserves to be surrounded by shooters in his own right (72.6% conversion rate on shots at the rim in 2018-19, for example) and nobody talks about how Giannis also hurts Bledsoe because Giannis is the franchise, making Bledsoe the fall guy.

They should have made Hill the starter they day they acquired him. Bledsoe could still get his minutes off the bench, but his minutes with Giannis would be minimized. Incidentally, I think Bledsoe and Giannis had the 2nd- or 3rd-best net rating (minimum 100 minutes to filter out garbage time) of any duo in the entire playoffs last year. That clearly has something to do with the way they completely clamped down Detroit and Boston. But Hill had the best net rating of any player on either team (minimum 10 minutes) in the ECF last year. Unfortunately Hill looked awful in the bubble, and he's not getting any younger, so that ship might have sailed. But they would have a title this year if they just made that no-brainer move.

[greekbuck34]

Why are people pretending like we don't have capable shooters? We've been about in the middle of the league as far as 3P% goes the past two seasons and that's with Giannis taking 3-5 per game and bringing the average down.

We look decent(35.4%) but still streaky in the regular season when Giannis keeps breaking down defenses with his driving and general havoc in the paint when the ball moves a little before the shot.

Against a top tier defense which gambles everything to take away Giannis strengths with a wall of defenders we are garbage not only because we have very overrated shooting but also because the ball doesn't move at all at times.

Against the Raptors

Open shots = 3.5/10.8(32.3%)
Wide Open shots= 7.7/23.3(32.9%)

Against the Heat

Open shots = 5.8/17.2(33.7%)
Wide Open shots= 3.0/10.4(28.8%)

From all the playoffs teams I've seen only Orlando can shoot as bad as us in an entire series and I have my doubts after what I've seen from our series in the 1st round.

[higharc]

I think the last two season's screwed our minds really bad. Giannis should just cruise the next season, let the rest of the roster show their true capabilities (if we go again with Bledsoe as our PG and old, slow inconsistent shooters) and just play the playoffs as a 4th-5th seed without real expectations.

But no that's not Giannis way. He will give again his 100% on both sides and we will overestimate our roster into oblivion.

He should definitely do that because no way he gets another consecutive MVP after this playoff performance.
He should be practicing half court sets in RS.