2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Joey Wheeler]

#1 will be between Lebron and AD, slightly leaning AD at the moment but we'll see.

#3 Jokic seems like a pretty good bet too, I'm sure he'll be dominant against the Lakers too. Below that it gets more difficult.

[Doctor MJ]

Like, if you're going to miss 25% of regular season games for rest, you have to do better than... whatever that was. At least Giannis had a monster regular season and gave his team the 1 seed.

This is an excellent point and I've made decisions in the past based on similar arguments so I'll chew on it more here.

But so we're clear, Kawhi was 5th in the league in +/- way far beyond his teammates, ahead of LeBron, and also way ahead of someone like Harden. It wasn't like last year, to me Kawhi was a pretty easy pick for 3rd for MVP behind Giannis and LeBron and so while I expect him to drop, he's dropping from relatively rare air.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, that's why future series matter even for guys who are out. If the Lakers roll to a title Harden looks pretty decent (or what the hell, say the Heat roll and Giannis looks better), if they get pushed seriously his effort looks a lot less impressive.

I have to say, I don't think there's anything the Lakers can do that will make me think "Nah the Rockets were actually elite, they just played an amazing team." The Rockets never looked elite all year and they went out gently into that good night in a way that made them look about the same as the Blazers.

On the other hand, if the Heat win the championship with no opposing stars looking any better against the Heat than Giannis, then Giannis probably gets my #1 vote by default as the only way for anyone to be ahead of Giannis for me is to clearly outplay him in the playoffs. (I get that you can say Butler outplayed Giannis, and I may have Butler ahead of Giannis in the end, but that's easier to swallow if it's a debate for the 4th or 5th slot. If the Heat win the chip playing like an ensemble cast, it would be the height of winning bias to put one of them as the #1 POY.)

[Doctor MJ]

Incidentally, I think Lawrence Frank's candidacy for our EOY just took a bit of a hit.

I still venerate the ground Jerry West walks on and would note that if the Clippers don't get Kawhi last off-season there is no universe where rolling things back would be seen as a success. But that Paul George trade now hurts so, so much.

On a more positive note, I find myself thinking about various Heat candidates. Riley for EOY, Spo for COY, Bam for MIP, Dragic for 6MOY. The last one is weird though, I mean, he was the Heat's 6MOY and he did the job well, but right now he's playing like a legit all-star as a starter. By any reasonable numerical threshold, he'd still be eligible for 6MOY, but I'm not sure if his candidacy still captures the spirit.

[ShotCreator]

James Harden had an awful game 7 also - are we just forgetting that?

Come on y'all...judging a player on one game? Kawhi was one of the most consistent playoff players this season, he was overdue for a bad game.

Harden was overall great in these playoffs as well, and he had a clearly superior RS, just based on durability. Kawhi was catching up based on being a better playoff performer, but with their collapse in this series with not just his stinker in game 7, but his non existence in game 6 as well, can you honestly say he clearly outperformed Harden in the playoffs? Even if he did, it’s really not by much, certainly not enough to ignore the fact that Harden was much better in the RS.

Harden is clearly and visibly better than Kawhi.

Only narratives could’ve ever gotten in the way of that.

[ShotCreator]

Harden and Kawhi should both be punished because of their abysmal GM skills. When you have the power to make franchise altering decisions you bare the burden of the consequences.

This is true too.

But Kawhi’s plan wasn’t so bad.

Harden’s was egotistical suicide. He and Paul clashed over the structure of a clearly exploitable offense.

Now his HC is gone and apparently things won’t change.

Morey and Harden have lost it.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Harden and Kawhi should both be punished because of their abysmal GM skills. When you have the power to make franchise altering decisions you bare the burden of the consequences.

I'll certainly stand with you here. Now, how to actually quantify the reasonable punishment is probably impossible to come to a consensus on, but particularly with Kawhi, it's hard not to think about how bright their future would look if they had Kawhi, Gallo, SGA, and all those draft picks. Even if they lost in the 2nd round, you could use that to say "Imagine if they had a second star!" with exuberance instead despair.

Re: Harden. Not wanting to let him off the hook here at all, and I'm on record for saying how problematic it is that he insisted on the Paul-Westbrook swap, but the one thing I'll say there is that the Harden-Paul Rockets had clearly already taken their big shot and were getting frustrated because they knew their best days were behind them. The wisest move if you valued winning was to roll it back anyway, but the days of that core were number no matter what. If they'd kept Paul I still think they're out in the 2nd round, so the big consequence here is really about how they sacrificed their future, not about the damage done now. Whereas with the Clippers, it was actually both.

As I say all of that, pretty sure I'll still have Kawhi on my list before I have Harden. I had Kawhi ahead of Harden before this series, and I don't think I'll be able to elevate Harden based on the gentleman's sweep the Lakers put the Rockets through. I'm glad Harden was still able to produce his numbers, but putting up numbers in a series where in the end the other team never seemed seriously threatened isn't something I feel terribly comfortable lionizing.

I get what ur saying and i do have kawhi ahead of harden and think harden was limited in terms of effectiveness

But i do think alot of things that went wrong for houstan on offense werent hardens fault, and i think people tend to believe that players have way more control over scheme than they really do

They pretty much just stood around during hard doubles despite it being clear that the lakers were good enough at rotating that they could stop the rockets when harden kicked it out to the open man, since its harder for you to pass it to the guy quickly on hard ones and the lakers all rotated as a team. Pretty basic cutting or off ball screening action could fix this

And the lakers ran a 3-2 zone, which was stupid effective since like, just picturing it you cant just hit open threes like in a 2-3 since in 5 out alignment the zones rhey guard correspond with the player. But the thing is a 3-2 zone is like, a smart tactical move and im sure that it wasnt a strict 3-2 but theres a reason even college teams dont run it, i mean just basic stuff like harden just isolating in the corner where the mismatches are hidden rather than at the wing, overloading it, etc etc.

I know we cant expect for houstan to go post against it or not align 5 out, but there wwre ways for them to beat both the main strats that arent really hardens fault. Yeah they killed it from three but once the lakers adjusted rhey were hitting contested shots wheneve they turned it up on D

Harden essentially did his role exactly like in the RS, he got past his man, finished or kicked it out on time on target.

Now as much as i agree that his off ball game being non existent means that he would kick it out when help came and the rotations worked and nothing would occur and itd be a dead possession (and they had alot of dem bailouts on those) how much is that his fault and how much is that a product of the scheme or system d antoni put in place/their inability to adjust?

The two big adjustments the lakers made were pretry much jist accepted when both had suitable counters.

With the clippers there was the defensive crapshow we saw but i wonder if there were offensive decisions the coaching staff did that hurt the same way?

I dont think its neccessarily true that volume scoring always automatically means you cant adjust, i think any offense can be adjusted to if its reasonable, but these adjustments have counters and generally it will get to a point where offense wins out if theres suffecient talent.

Like 2016 warriors had an unstoppable offense, that was stopped in its tracks when the cavs just switched on ever curry and klay action in general and had the tools (for the most part) to do so. I assume something similar happened with the celtics defense vs the triangle, etc etc.

Not saying the nuggets figured out how to yeet kawhi ot anything but im guessing that adjustments could have been made to help the overall clips offense out alot.

So im guessing what im saying is when a player does his job well but his scheme fails him, more valid for harden since he did everything he did in the RS as well or better than usual, is it his fault or his teams?

Whether or not this is his fault or not i dont know, but outside of a few guys, i think the only one i can think of that ive heard of altering scheme and stuff on the fly is bron ever act, which is fenerally where i think the bball iq talent in him lies, but if skmeone does what they always do and does it well is it his fault or the teams fault?

Like with others you can point out weaknesses although adjustments still could have been made, but with harden its like exclusively the team i guess is what im saying, to an extent his inactivity when he doesnt get all the way too i guess

[ShotCreator]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1862292&p=77755776#p77755776

Pleasantly surprised Jokic got voted #5 last year.

This is largely a worse year than last year on a lot of levels. The Jazz incinerated him for a while there and he came into the season in some malaise.

Kawhi #1 by a large margin. Heh. Ironically he’s also much better this season. Better at literally everything except pull-up 3’s. And I mean significantly better. I actually want to see how the vote goes now just for that.

[MyUniBroDavis]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1862292&p=77755776#p77755776

Pleasantly surprised Jokic got voted #5 last year.

This is largely a worse year than last year on a lot of levels. The Jazz incinerated him for a while there and he came into the season in some malaise.

Kawhi #1 by a large margin. Heh. Ironically he’s also much better this season. Better at literally everything except pull-up 3’s. And I mean significantly better. I actually want to see how the vote goes now just for that.

Tbf even tho kawhis better than last year its 99% from playmaking improvement

Poy isnt best player vote anyways

[GSP]

#1 will be between Lebron and AD, slightly leaning AD at the moment but we'll see.

#3 Jokic seems like a pretty good bet too, I'm sure he'll be dominant against the Lakers too. Below that it gets more difficult.

Jokic wont be dominant against La.

Ad/Dwight are his toughest matchup in the league

Lakers can play big with those 2 and they have pests on the perimeter to disrupt his passing too

Denvers had a fun ride but its gonna come crashing hard

[kayess]

#1 will be between Lebron and AD, slightly leaning AD at the moment but we'll see.

#3 Jokic seems like a pretty good bet too, I'm sure he'll be dominant against the Lakers too. Below that it gets more difficult.

Jokic wont be dominant against La.

Ad/Dwight are his toughest matchup in the league

Lakers can play big with those 2 and they have pests on the perimeter to disrupt his passing too

Denvers had a fun ride but its gonna come crashing hard

This is what I objectively think but are you really gonna say that out loud and jinx them / give the Nuggets more mojo lmao

[therealbig3]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1862292&p=77755776#p77755776

Pleasantly surprised Jokic got voted #5 last year.

This is largely a worse year than last year on a lot of levels. The Jazz incinerated him for a while there and he came into the season in some malaise.

Kawhi #1 by a large margin. Heh. Ironically he’s also much better this season. Better at literally everything except pull-up 3’s. And I mean significantly better. I actually want to see how the vote goes now just for that.

Playoff performance and some winning bias certainly play huge parts in POY voting, it's unavoidable.

[therealbig3]

I especially like the point earlier about how letting these series play out is important, because I was so hard on Giannis earlier and wanted to drop him out of my top 5...but then you see how Harden and Kawhi went out, and it's hard to justify right now that they should be ahead of Giannis. They did perform better than he did in the playoffs...but by how much? They certainly weren't untouchable themselves, they looked quite bad in their elimination games. Giannis was actually playing very well in game 4 before he got hurt. And he obviously blew them away in terms of his RS.

Only thing I'm really sold on is LeBron is 1, and AD and Jokic are top 5.

Also don't think we should be forgetting Doncic so quickly, although I don't see a good argument for him right now over Kawhi/Harden, who are battling for that #5 spot most likely.

[Blackmill]

It stands out to me that Kawhi has always had teammates with very high aggregate passing talent during his title runs. This is common, and I think necessary, when the alpha of the team is a good but not great playmaker. When we've seen other great players who fit this description win titles, like Kawhi they've usually had plenty of supporting playmaking. So the result of this series is very revealing to me.

[HeartBreakKid]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1862292&p=77755776#p77755776

Pleasantly surprised Jokic got voted #5 last year.

This is largely a worse year than last year on a lot of levels. The Jazz incinerated him for a while there and he came into the season in some malaise.

Kawhi #1 by a large margin. Heh. Ironically he’s also much better this season. Better at literally everything except pull-up 3’s. And I mean significantly better. I actually want to see how the vote goes now just for that.

I thought he barely beat Giannis last year.

[limbo]

People really going HAM after a couple of games and throwing everything out the window, lmao

At this point, if the Lakers lose to the Heat in the Finals, i expect Goran Dragic in some of these Top 5's...

[limbo]

It stands out to me that Kawhi has always had teammates with very high aggregate passing talent during his title runs. This is common, and I think necessary, when the alpha of the team is a good but not great playmaker. When we've seen other great players who fit this description win titles, like Kawhi they've usually had plenty of supporting playmaking. So the result of this series is very revealing to me.

2017 Spurs weren't actually some beacon of passing/playmaking talent tbh... and Kawhi performed more than fine in that season. Parker even got injured in the 2nd round and it didn't seem to matter... Kawhi was even dominating the Warriors in the next series, though only for one half before getting Zaza'd...

You did qualify your statement with 'during his title runs' which i'm not disagreeing (nor am i disagreeing with the overarching general point of your post), i just wanted to counter-argue this notion that Kawhi's performance is any more dependent on having elite playmaking teams than most other superstars really... I don't really see Kawhi playing with a surplus of dominant playmakers, moreso than any other ATG that has won titles, in the last 3 seasons that wouls give him some sort of unfair advantage against he field... If anything, i think the coaching from Pop/Nurse and the system/culture these guys established on their respective teams was far more instrumental in his success than raw aggregate passing talent on his teams.

But the passing/playmaking talent he had on his title teams was definitely good, and Kawhi's playmaking isn't elite. That i agree with.

[GSP]

People really going HAM after a couple of games and throwing everything out the window, lmao

At this point, if the Lakers lose to the Heat in the Finals, i expect Goran Dragic in some of these Top 5's...

Best Slovenian player in the Nba

[limbo]

People really going HAM after a couple of games and throwing everything out the window, lmao

At this point, if the Lakers lose to the Heat in the Finals, i expect Goran Dragic in some of these Top 5's...

Best Slovenian player in the Nba

Slovenian? Why stop there? Best European player in the NBA, and he proved it in 2017... And if he wins the NBA title this season he will also be the best player on the planet

[Dupp]

Like, if you're going to miss 25% of regular season games for rest, you have to do better than... whatever that was. At least Giannis had a monster regular season and gave his team the 1 seed.

That’s the thing, kawhi really seemed to fatigue as the series went. No real reason or excuse for it. Doc said like 7 players all were exhausted in the fourth and asked for rest. That’s really bad and obviously the team didn’t stay as ready as they should have during the break.

Actually kawhi kind of did the same a little last season too. They were pretty lucky warriors were injured.