Trade Talk (Part Four)

[GopherIt!]

I’d do #17, Johnson, and S&T Juancho for Aaron Gordon.

Draft Lamelo Ball at 1. Make him the primary passer and guard SG’s at 6’7. Make a DLo primary scorer with KAT.

DLo 6’5
Lamelo 6’7
Layman 6’8
Gordon 6’9
Towns 7 ft

That line up gives you speed to play fast, size to guard, and enough offense and defense.

Bring back Beasley 4 years 50 million as our 6th man in the Eric Gordon/Lou Williams instant offense and spark plug on the second unit.

Wolves make the playoffs for sure and continue to build.

i want absolutely nothing to do with ball nor his family.

[Wolveswin]

Crazy Towns blockbuster...

76ers Give: Embiid + Horford
76ers Get: Towns + Russell
76ers Reasoning: build shooting around Simmons team and move Horford. Siakam doesn't fit on their roster straight up, enter Wolves.
Towns
Harris
Simmons
Richardson
Russell

Raptors Give: Siakam + Lowry + 2 Future 1sts
Raptors Get: Embiid + Johnson
Raptors Reasoning: get a true #1 alpha to recruit a 2021 free agent. Siakam was exposed in playoffs as #2 guy.
Embiid
Johnson
OG
Powell
FVV

Wolves Give: Towns + Russell + Johnson
Wolves Get: Siakam + Lowry + Horford + 2 Future Raptors 1sts
Wolves Reasoning: Rosas tries to build a more modern roster (not center oriented). He now has more trade ammo. Lowry has more value than Johnson and is bigger expiring contract as ballast, plus: #1, #17, Culver (if needed), Raptors 1sts. I would go after Beal.
Horford
Siakam
Culver
Beasley
Beal
Can Beasley and Beal be a dynamic backcourt?

[Mattya]

I’d target OPJ. He seems like the type of diminished asset Rosas would buy low on without having to give up significant assets. The size of his contract to trade for actually helps us clear up roster spots as well.

[UnFadeable21]

I’d do #17, Johnson, and S&T Juancho for Aaron Gordon.

Draft Lamelo Ball at 1. Make him the primary passer and guard SG’s at 6’7. Make a DLo primary scorer with KAT.

DLo 6’5
Lamelo 6’7
Layman 6’8
Gordon 6’9
Towns 7 ft

That line up gives you speed to play fast, size to guard, and enough offense and defense.

Bring back Beasley 4 years 50 million as our 6th man in the Eric Gordon/Lou Williams instant offense and spark plug on the second unit.

Wolves make the playoffs for sure and continue to build.

i want absolutely nothing to do with ball nor his family.

Ball has the highest ability in the draft. He’s got A+ handles, b-ball iq, and passing.

Afraid Edwards is just a Dion Waiter close. Bad motor, bad shot selection, low IQ. And he’s only 6’3!

Wolves are dead last in attendance and revenue. We need some excitement.

Lamelo was the rookie of the year in the NBL averaging 17 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 asts, 2.5 Stls

[Baseline81]

Ball has the highest ability in the draft. He’s got A+ handles, b-ball iq, and handles.

Afraid Edwards is just a Dion Waiter close. Bad motor, bad shot selection, low IQ. And he’s only 6’3!

Wolves are dead last in attendance and revenue. We need some excitement.

Lamelo was the rookie of the year in the NBL averaging 17 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 asts, 2.5 Stls

I find the underline difficult to believe. If that number is accurate, it must be without shoes. Usually add another 1.5".

[KGdaBom]

Ball has the highest ability in the draft. He’s got A+ handles, b-ball iq, and handles.

Afraid Edwards is just a Dion Waiter close. Bad motor, bad shot selection, low IQ. And he’s only 6’3!

Wolves are dead last in attendance and revenue. We need some excitement.

Lamelo was the rookie of the year in the NBL averaging 17 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 asts, 2.5 Stls

I find the underline difficult to believe. If that number is accurate, it must be without shoes. Usually add another 1.5".

If Edwards is 6'3" Ball is 6'5". Edwards is a tall, big, strong shooting guard with great handles who can get his shot against anybody. His college %s were bad, but quite a bit better than Ball's in the NBL. I don't want either. Wiseman is so much better in so many ways.

[_AIJ_]

Id be happy if somehow we got Kelly Oubre


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[Jedzz]

Id be happy if somehow we got Kelly Oubre


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Dlo, Towns to AZ to play with Booker.

Oubre, Ayton, #10, and next three AZ available FRPs ought to do it?

[UnFadeable21]

Ball has the highest ability in the draft. He’s got A+ handles, b-ball iq, and handles.

Afraid Edwards is just a Dion Waiter close. Bad motor, bad shot selection, low IQ. And he’s only 6’3!

Wolves are dead last in attendance and revenue. We need some excitement.

Lamelo was the rookie of the year in the NBL averaging 17 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 asts, 2.5 Stls

I find the underline difficult to believe. If that number is accurate, it must be without shoes. Usually add another 1.5".

Nba.com draft board has him at 6’3

http://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/atnhony-edwards


And so does the ESPN draft express draft board has him at 6’3

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

[UnFadeable21]

Ball has the highest ability in the draft. He’s got A+ handles, b-ball iq, and handles.

Afraid Edwards is just a Dion Waiter close. Bad motor, bad shot selection, low IQ. And he’s only 6’3!

Wolves are dead last in attendance and revenue. We need some excitement.

Lamelo was the rookie of the year in the NBL averaging 17 ppg, 7 rebs, 7 asts, 2.5 Stls

I find the underline difficult to believe. If that number is accurate, it must be without shoes. Usually add another 1.5".

If Edwards is 6'3" Ball is 6'5". Edwards is a tall, big, strong shooting guard with great handles who can get his shot against anybody. His college %s were bad, but quite a bit better than Ball's in the NBL. I don't want either. Wiseman is so much better in so many ways.

ESPN draft express has Edwards at 6’3

They have Lamelo Ball at 6’7

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Nba.com has Lamelo at 6’7 too

https://in.nba.com/news/nba-draft-2020-lamelo-ball-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/1f1rzhvlpmd07101wa40lpeigh

[KGdaBom]

I find the underline difficult to believe. If that number is accurate, it must be without shoes. Usually add another 1.5".

If Edwards is 6'3" Ball is 6'5". Edwards is a tall, big, strong shooting guard with great handles who can get his shot against anybody. His college %s were bad, but quite a bit better than Ball's in the NBL. I don't want either. Wiseman is so much better in so many ways.

ESPN draft express has Edwards at 6’3

They have Lamelo Ball at 6’7

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Nba.com has Lamelo at 6’7 too

https://in.nba.com/news/nba-draft-2020-lamelo-ball-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/1f1rzhvlpmd07101wa40lpeigh

I don't care what they list them at. Those numbers are all made up anyway.

[old school 34]

Hawks fan back again:
Rumors from here in Atlanta is that Minny proposed #6 and Hunter for #1 - Hawks quickly declined. Atlanta is not as interested in moving up like they did last year.
Here's a Wolves/Magic trade said to have been discussed:
Top 5 protected 2021 1st, #15 pick and Aaron Gordon for LaMelo Ball, Minny wants Isaac instead of Gordon, ORL does not want to include him.
It's still early and things change but that's where things are at the moment - Minny is trying really hard to trade the pick.

This is good information. True, they are rumors, but they are rumors about what the actual front offices will do - not what internet fans hope happens. Thanks for coming here and posting that.

Now here’s what this internet fan hopes:

I really hope the Wolves/Magic deal doesn’t happen. I just don’t see pieces of real value here. The Magic will likely chug along, avoiding a rebuild, and sliding into the bottom of the playoffs for their annual first round exit. Two non-lotto picks and Aaron Gordon don’t appear to me to have great value. This is a star league, and the best chance to find a star is with that first pick. The odds aren’t great, but I wouldn’t want to use the #1 pick for quantity role players.

It's interesting thought process of the Orlando rumors....I think I'd roll the dice on a deal along those lines if you could convince them to replace Isaac in that deal. I know there's definite risk taking Isaac back, but too sucked in by the ceiling & potential fit. Also, you'd still have JJ (I'd assume in your pocket) for another move if you wanted & could see you being able to say then take 15 & 17---consolidate them to say NY or Phx for say 9 or 10?

Now if Gordon is the guy & they won't concede....tough to give up 1 for two mid 1sts & Gordon in that type of deal....so I spun something that might make some sense....Shrink need you to review it to make sure my understanding of the cba rules are correct?

Changed it to a 3-way deal between Orl/GSW/Min....

Orl gets: Wiggins/Spellman/Evans/#2.....out: Gordon/Mamba/#15/future FRP

GSW gets: JJ/Bamba/#17/#33/gets new larger TE--essentially for Wiggins contract that could now give them a whole year to use again---gets them to next year's trade deadline when maybe more available?.....out: use the Iggy TE (which expires on 10/24---now before the draft--assuming this doesn't get extended?) (Another separate note: could still absorb Spellman in the Iggy TE as well...there's room & new year, so we can trade him back to them---they liked him, so if Orl didn't want him it works?)

Min gets: Gordon/#15/future FRP (Orl) out: JJ/Spellman/Evans/#17 & 33

So main question on this....is my understanding around the Trade exceptions accurate to how they'd work under this premise?

Why for each....

Orl-- They still get up to #2 & get Wiggins instead of the expirings....for a team that doesn't want to fully rebuild it---they don't have to give up Isaac in this deal & while they lose Gordon this year when Isaac is out & Bamba (but still just a backup as long as they have Vuc)...they gain a wing where they need help & significantly jump up in the draft.

GSW-- They don't immediately turn the #2 into a vet starter....but they get Bamba (essentially instead of Wiseman)....gain a vet bench player in JJ on expiring (which gives you something out of the Iggy TE that's expiring & creating an even larger one for a future deal) & still gain 17 & 33 for potential bench/role player types on the cheap?

Min-- Get Gordon @ the lowest possible cost to us....which further just makes the risk worth it....most on our side say---17/JJ/filler for him....Orl says not enough & wants to jump up in draft if they're going to give him up....both sides win by I think offering enough value to GSW to make it still worth it to them as well? So in the end, we get Gordon, keep #1, move up from 17 for 15, & deal 33 for a future FRP

Maybe in the end....I'm still too rose colored glasses on the Wolves side & some tweaking of the picks still need to be shuffled some more? But think the overall concept....has some significant value for all 3 teams?

[shrink]

So main question on this....is my understanding around the Trade exceptions accurate to how they'd work under this premise?

Yes, you nailed it.

In any legal trade, each team can set it up however it works best for them. In most cases, this is to generate the most TPE’s. GSW can set up simultaneous trades like this:

Iguodala TPE (($17.2) absorbs Johnson ($15.3)
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7)

The Wiggins for Bamba trade would create a $21.8 mil TPE for the Warriors. This is a big deal, as you mentioned, because the Iguodala TPE is set to expire very soon, and GSW would have a calendar year to decide how to use the new TPE.

[shrink]

Regarding the trade itself, I like the direction very much.

If the Magic decide to rebuild (which is a big “if” for their front office), then tank commander Wiggins hurts them a lot less than he hurts the Warriors. GSW desperately needs to move Wiggins salary .. if he scores 20, team gives up 20 .. maybe 22. To win a championship, they need to put more talent on the floor with their payroll, than their opponents did with their payroll. The $30 mil Wiggins “zero net gain” will be unbearable against a team that is getting positive production for their $30. Personally, I feel it would take more than the #2 to simply get out from under the next three years of Wiggins.

I follow the Magic somewhat closely, hoping they finally embark on a rebuild. If they were only getting the #2, I think they would be reluctant to give up Bamba. Perhaps they’d want to get out of Fournier, with his $17 mil player option he will likely accept in a Covid-impacted economy, or Terrence Ross. Either could provide immediate help for the Warriors. I think they are stuck with Vooch. I wouldn’t include a future ORL 1st.

For MIN, this is a great deal. As I mention constantly, I am not a big Gordon fan here, but I’d take a chance on him for JJ and the #17, and if pressed, I might add #33 or Spellman to seal a deal. Getting off Evans is nice, I doubt we could get ORL’s future 1st too.

This deal has the bones to happen. The key to a successful trade is to find trading partners who have wide differences in the values of players, where “My guys are more valuable to you than us.” Many people tend to focus on positional fit, which can cause these variances. However, the best large trades are where entire team directions are widely different, as this affects every player on a roster. Here, we have three teams with about as wide a difference in team direction as possible: GSW win-NOW, MIN win-later with 23-27 year olds, and ORL in a full out rebuild. Deals like this carry a lot of promise, as all three may be able to find a price that makes the deal a win for them.

[Jedzz]

So main question on this....is my understanding around the Trade exceptions accurate to how they'd work under this premise?

Yes, you nailed it.

In any legal trade, each team can set it up however it works best for them. In most cases, this is to generate the most TPE’s. GSW can set up simultaneous trades like this:

Iguodala TPE (($17.2) absorbs Johnson ($15.3)
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7)

The Wiggins for Bamba trade would create a $21.8 mil TPE for the Warriors. This is a big deal, as you mentioned, because the Iguodala TPE is set to expire very soon, and GSW would have a calendar year to decide how to use the new TPE.

This TPE thing is pure trash that allows a full circumnavigating of the point of the match rules.
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7) is a joke. I never want to hear anyone talk about matching contracts in trade ideas again. It simply doesn't matter.

[Klomp]

So main question on this....is my understanding around the Trade exceptions accurate to how they'd work under this premise?

Yes, you nailed it.

In any legal trade, each team can set it up however it works best for them. In most cases, this is to generate the most TPE’s. GSW can set up simultaneous trades like this:

Iguodala TPE (($17.2) absorbs Johnson ($15.3)
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7)

The Wiggins for Bamba trade would create a $21.8 mil TPE for the Warriors. This is a big deal, as you mentioned, because the Iguodala TPE is set to expire very soon, and GSW would have a calendar year to decide how to use the new TPE.

This TPE thing is pure trash that allows a full circumnavigating of the point of the match rules.
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7) is a joke. I never want to hear anyone talk about matching contracts in trade ideas again. It simply doesn't matter.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's trash or doesn't matter.

[shrink]

Yes, you nailed it.

In any legal trade, each team can set it up however it works best for them. In most cases, this is to generate the most TPE’s. GSW can set up simultaneous trades like this:

Iguodala TPE (($17.2) absorbs Johnson ($15.3)
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7)

The Wiggins for Bamba trade would create a $21.8 mil TPE for the Warriors. This is a big deal, as you mentioned, because the Iguodala TPE is set to expire very soon, and GSW would have a calendar year to decide how to use the new TPE.

This TPE thing is pure trash that allows a full circumnavigating of the point of the match rules.
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7) is a joke. I never want to hear anyone talk about matching contracts in trade ideas again. It simply doesn't matter.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's trash or doesn't matter.

Right. Another way to think of it is as half a trade, which the team has one year to compete as a three-teamer. The CBA even refers to them as “non-simultaneous.”

Remember, each team can set it up from their own perspective. For GSW, Wiggins for Bamba is fair. Matching rules are there to prevent a team from adding too much salary, too quickly, so an owner can’t just step in and buy a championship. Here, GSW is reducing salary, and even if they use the full TPE, they still haven’t raised their payroll a single dollar. Hopefully that helps make TPE’s more palatable.

Edit: oh, one other thing that may make TPE’s seem fairer .. they count against a team’s cap space. And they should.

And I think the word you wanted was “circumventing.”

[Ducklett]

Hawks fan back again:
Rumors from here in Atlanta is that Minny proposed #6 and Hunter for #1 - Hawks quickly declined. Atlanta is not as interested in moving up like they did last year.
Here's a Wolves/Magic trade said to have been discussed:
Top 5 protected 2021 1st, #15 pick and Aaron Gordon for LaMelo Ball, Minny wants Isaac instead of Gordon, ORL does not want to include him.
It's still early and things change but that's where things are at the moment - Minny is trying really hard to trade the pick.

This is good information. True, they are rumors, but they are rumors about what the actual front offices will do - not what internet fans hope happens. Thanks for coming here and posting that.

Now here’s what this internet fan hopes:

I really hope the Wolves/Magic deal doesn’t happen. I just don’t see pieces of real value here. The Magic will likely chug along, avoiding a rebuild, and sliding into the bottom of the playoffs for their annual first round exit. Two non-lotto picks and Aaron Gordon don’t appear to me to have great value. This is a star league, and the best chance to find a star is with that first pick. The odds aren’t great, but I wouldn’t want to use the #1 pick for quantity role players.

It's interesting thought process of the Orlando rumors....I think I'd roll the dice on a deal along those lines if you could convince them to replace Isaac in that deal. I know there's definite risk taking Isaac back, but too sucked in by the ceiling & potential fit. Also, you'd still have JJ (I'd assume in your pocket) for another move if you wanted & could see you being able to say then take 15 & 17---consolidate them to say NY or Phx for say 9 or 10?

Now if Gordon is the guy & they won't concede....tough to give up 1 for two mid 1sts & Gordon in that type of deal....so I spun something that might make some sense....Shrink need you to review it to make sure my understanding of the cba rules are correct?

Changed it to a 3-way deal between Orl/GSW/Min....

Orl gets: Wiggins/Spellman/Evans/#2.....out: Gordon/Mamba/#15/future FRP

GSW gets: JJ/Bamba/#17/#33/gets new larger TE--essentially for Wiggins contract that could now give them a whole year to use again---gets them to next year's trade deadline when maybe more available?.....out: use the Iggy TE (which expires on 10/24---now before the draft--assuming this doesn't get extended?) (Another separate note: could still absorb Spellman in the Iggy TE as well...there's room & new year, so we can trade him back to them---they liked him, so if Orl didn't want him it works?)

Min gets: Gordon/#15/future FRP (Orl) out: JJ/Spellman/Evans/#17 & 33

So main question on this....is my understanding around the Trade exceptions accurate to how they'd work under this premise?

Why for each....

Orl-- They still get up to #2 & get Wiggins instead of the expirings....for a team that doesn't want to fully rebuild it---they don't have to give up Isaac in this deal & while they lose Gordon this year when Isaac is out & Bamba (but still just a backup as long as they have Vuc)...they gain a wing where they need help & significantly jump up in the draft.

GSW-- They don't immediately turn the #2 into a vet starter....but they get Bamba (essentially instead of Wiseman)....gain a vet bench player in JJ on expiring (which gives you something out of the Iggy TE that's expiring & creating an even larger one for a future deal) & still gain 17 & 33 for potential bench/role player types on the cheap?

Min-- Get Gordon @ the lowest possible cost to us....which further just makes the risk worth it....most on our side say---17/JJ/filler for him....Orl says not enough & wants to jump up in draft if they're going to give him up....both sides win by I think offering enough value to GSW to make it still worth it to them as well? So in the end, we get Gordon, keep #1, move up from 17 for 15, & deal 33 for a future FRP

Maybe in the end....I'm still too rose colored glasses on the Wolves side & some tweaking of the picks still need to be shuffled some more? But think the overall concept....has some significant value for all 3 teams?

I can't find anywhere that the Magic want LeMelo Ball nor that they would blow their assets on him,

The only rumors/smoke I see is Phoenix wanting AG and GSW wanting AG and/or Vuc. If you could link to your source about the Magic and LeMelo, that would be great.

We aren't trading AG for 17. It isn't going to happen. The Magic would be better off giving AG all of Isaac's minutes at his natural position at the 4 and trading him at the deadline.

[Jedzz]

Yes, you nailed it.

In any legal trade, each team can set it up however it works best for them. In most cases, this is to generate the most TPE’s. GSW can set up simultaneous trades like this:

Iguodala TPE (($17.2) absorbs Johnson ($15.3)
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7)

The Wiggins for Bamba trade would create a $21.8 mil TPE for the Warriors. This is a big deal, as you mentioned, because the Iguodala TPE is set to expire very soon, and GSW would have a calendar year to decide how to use the new TPE.

This TPE thing is pure trash that allows a full circumnavigating of the point of the match rules.
Wiggins ($27.5) for Bamba ($5.7) is a joke. I never want to hear anyone talk about matching contracts in trade ideas again. It simply doesn't matter.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's trash or doesn't matter.

I understand it now. Shrink and others gave me a lesson on it over a year back. Doesn't mean it's not just a trash loophole to circumnavigate matching rules that are there for a reason.

The Match rule no longer matters in our discussions because to get around it is nothing more than a decision by a team to take back a TPE instead of being concerned with matching. So if moving players is the point and desired, then move them as desired and take your TPE. More problems could exist because of this. Because this exists, an owner can take money under the table that nobody ever hears about to make a trade that should never be done. Say, use their giant chunk of capspace to inhale the cap problems of another team for no value in return but some junk players, picks and some TPE tools. These things are the enablers of the superteam building that nobody cares is ruining the competitiveness of the league for 26 teams or more a year. Do we need to list the deals and teams that have done this recently?

[Jedzz]

We aren't trading AG for 17. It isn't going to happen. The Magic would be better off giving AG all of Isaac's minutes at his natural position at the 4 and trading him at the deadline.

I agree that after the Isaac injury Magic have a reason to not sell low, high, or at all anymore. They need him now. Unless...they have someone in mind in this draft to take those minutes over.