Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

[Jonny Blaze]

The 3-6 finals record talk is the dumbest argument I've ever seen. We're penalizing LeBron because he overachieved and made it to the finals when his team had no business of being there? I guess he should have lost in the first round like Jordan did. That seems to be a bigger achievement in people's eyes... 2011 is the only year you can hold against him. That's it.

Jordan never had to face an all time great time like the warriors or 2014 SAS. He never had a finals appearance where both Pippen and Rodman were injured as well...

Let's also not forget Bulls won 55 games WITHOUT Jordan in 94 and almost made it to the conference finals without him. The only Lebron teams I can think of that may have been able to achieve that feat is the 2011 & 2012 Miami teams because of D Wade. Bulls winning 55 games without him and being 1 game away from the conference finals just shows how great of a team Jordan had around him. It would be fair to say he always had the superior squad in the finals. 6/6 record under those circumstances doesn't really surprise me...

What year did you start watching the NBA?

Lebron fans are something else.

Every season From 2010 until 2016 Lebron James played on the most talented team in the NBA. He did this while also playing in a horrible Eastern Conference.

When did his teams overachieve? a 3-6 record in the Finals is garbage with the amount of talent LBJ played with.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

The 2007 and 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks, and 2015 and 16 Golden St Warriors were not any better than any of teams that Jordan defeated in the 1990's.

The 17 and 18 Warriors are the only two teams that were clearly better than any team that Jordan faced.

[BigBoss23]

Yep, when you repeatedly take out Demar Derozan with two all-stars, you are the GOAT!

Yup, one could argue the second best Cavs player or option 1a for them was himself better than anyone on my Raps at the time.

[dribble1614]

What have D-Wade or Kyrie done post-Lebron? They're both good second fiddles but let's not kid ourselves with this 30ppg / MVP player nonsense.

Wade is my favorite player of all time but you can't honestly say he was the same player in 2012-2013...

D-Wade and Anthony Davis are both MVP level players. D-Wade carried Shaq to a title before LeBron ever even made a Finals appearance! LeBron can't do it without ultra elite scoring/offensive help.

Jordan can't win without Pippen and the best coach in NBA and maybe in sports history too.

Phil Jackson is overrated. Only reason he won anything was b/c of Jordan and Shaq/Kobe. Coaching is overrated in NBA. LeBron got swept in the Finals twice! Pathetic!

[Parataxis]

, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut. 

IF.

The word you're looking for is 'if'

[dribble1614]

How so? Anyone can win a title playing this weak competition. His Finals opponent will be a either a 5th seed that nobody expected to make out of the 2nd round or a very young/inexperienced team with no superstars either.

And he gets to duck the 2 best players who were his competition in Giannis and Kawhi.

Plus he choked in the 2011 Finals and has inferior regular season and playoffs stats all across the board.

LeBron is 3-6 in the Finals with way more help and superstar talent. He could never win without another #1 option / MVP level player or player capable of scoring 30 ppg. Jordan went 6-0 and smokes LeBron in the playoffs and Finals.

Also keep in mind LeBron is being outplayed by one of his own teammates through 2 rounds. Jordan never had a teammate put up anywhere near his production, regular season or playoffs.

LeBron is closer to Kareem than Jordan.

Jordan played trash teams in the finals and played for the best coach in the league and had a stacked defensive roster. We just saw with Kawhi what a difference going from the best coach in the league to an average coach makes. MJ always had the most stacked squad in the league, Lebron was always playing the most stacked squads in the finals lmao. It's not even close. They played a team that scored 54 points against them in the Finals, LeBron was playing teams with 4 all stars LMFAO and needed a game where the Cavs scored 49 in the first quarter just to have the firepower to beat them.

LeBron had to play for mediocre coaches, and the one time he had a top 3 coach they won like 66 games and would've crushed the Spurs in 5 and then threepeated if Wade doesn't get injured. MJ had Phil Jackson and Tex Winter and the second best wing player in the world on his team. Stop it. He has the most propped up and lucky legacy out of anyone. No one had more things stacked in their favor than MJ. You know how many people would win titles in that kind of situation lmao. LeBron would crush every team MJ faced if he was in his position.

LeBron always played trash teams in the weakest conference ever (2011-2018 Eastern conference).

LeBron had to stack the deck and play with other superstars cus he wasn't good enough to do it without another #1 option caliber player. Jordan never played with three different #1 option caliber players.

LeBron despite playing with far superior talent than Jordan ever did has choked in the Finals in 2011 and has been swept off his ass not once but TWICE!! 3-6 Finals record, 2011 choke job against Dallas with a far superior team including top 3 player in Wade. Plus he's been swept twice.

Jordan would destroy any of LeBron's teams. LeBron is overrated by far. He could never lead an all-time great team like Jordan did with 72-10 Bulls. He's never led an all-time great legendary team like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt or Kareem. All his teams were mediocre in regular season and barely squeaked out a title or they were great in the regular season and got exposed in the playoffs.

LeBron is the most overrated superstar ever as he just as easily could have zero rings as he has three. Draymond Green suspension and Curry injury gave him the 2016 title and Ray Allen's miracle three saved him from his choke job in 2013. He also went down 3-2 to Boston in 2012.

LeBron is certainly the MOAT! (most overrated all time). not the GOAT though!

[syrus3]

The new narrative is that “Kawhi lost so Lebron is the GOAT.”



Frankly, he’s not even #2. He’s not ahead of Kareem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq or Hakeem.

[RoyceDa59]

Stop looking past the Nuggets. They are emerging as a super team in front of our eyes and chemistry is off the charts. Lakers have their hands full with a team that had a much harder road to the conference finals (Jazz, Clippers).

Nuggets Heat is a realistic possibility here.

[Homer38]

D-Wade and Anthony Davis are both MVP level players. D-Wade carried Shaq to a title before LeBron ever even made a Finals appearance! LeBron can't do it without ultra elite scoring/offensive help.

Jordan can't win without Pippen and the best coach in NBA and maybe in sports history too.

Phil Jackson is overrated. Only reason he won anything was b/c of Jordan and Shaq/Kobe. Coaching is overrated in NBA. LeBron got swept in the Finals twice! Pathetic!

Jackson won 11 rings in 19 seasons as HC...Even with the context,this is crazy!

[knicksNOTslick]

The 3-6 finals record talk is the dumbest argument I've ever seen. We're penalizing LeBron because he overachieved and made it to the finals when his team had no business of being there? I guess he should have lost in the first round like Jordan did. That seems to be a bigger achievement in people's eyes... 2011 is the only year you can hold against him. That's it.

Jordan never had to face an all time great time like the warriors or 2014 SAS. He never had a finals appearance where both Pippen and Rodman were injured as well...

Let's also not forget Bulls won 55 games WITHOUT Jordan in 94 and almost made it to the conference finals without him. The only Lebron teams I can think of that may have been able to achieve that feat is the 2011 & 2012 Miami teams because of D Wade. Bulls winning 55 games without him and being 1 game away from the conference finals just shows how great of a team Jordan had around him. It would be fair to say he always had the superior squad in the finals. 6/6 record under those circumstances doesn't really surprise me...

You say that's it like it's not a huge mark on his career. Jordan has never came up small on the big stage like that. His big time choke at the peak of his career is pretty bad. You can't just say that was it.
Also, DWade is better than any player Jordan has played with. For the Lakers, Anthony Davis was even in MVP and DPOY talks. Nobody else on the Bulls teams had that when Jordan was on the team.

[Homer38]

The 3-6 finals record talk is the dumbest argument I've ever seen. We're penalizing LeBron because he overachieved and made it to the finals when his team had no business of being there? I guess he should have lost in the first round like Jordan did. That seems to be a bigger achievement in people's eyes... 2011 is the only year you can hold against him. That's it.

Jordan never had to face an all time great time like the warriors or 2014 SAS. He never had a finals appearance where both Pippen and Rodman were injured as well...

Let's also not forget Bulls won 55 games WITHOUT Jordan in 94 and almost made it to the conference finals without him. The only Lebron teams I can think of that may have been able to achieve that feat is the 2011 & 2012 Miami teams because of D Wade. Bulls winning 55 games without him and being 1 game away from the conference finals just shows how great of a team Jordan had around him. It would be fair to say he always had the superior squad in the finals. 6/6 record under those circumstances doesn't really surprise me...

You say that's it like it's not a huge mark on his career. Jordan has never came up small on the big stage like that. His big time choke at the peak of his career is pretty bad. You can't just say that was it.
Also, DWade is better than any player Jordan has played with. For the Lakers, Anthony Davis was even in MVP and DPOY talks. Nobody else on the Bulls teams had that when Jordan was on the team.

The lack of respect of the great Scottie Pippen(top 30 players ever) is crazy.

[LivingLegend]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

0 rings that's fact.

But that doesn't change the fact Bron continue to seek out alphas to pursue his runs. That's facts too, no?

I mean, with the amount of horrible teams he has drug to the Finals do you blame him for wanting to play with good players if he has the chance? I feel like LeBron has served his time with terrible teams. Also, what other great player all time didnt play with other great players?

We have seen the KG/Ray/Pierce Celtics come together to play, Kobe got Pau Gasol and won a ring, the Heat with LBJ/Wade/Bosh, the Warriors with KD, KD again going to play with Kyrie, Kawhi go play with PG13 and Westbrook/Harden with the Rockets. Everyone in the NBA does it. Why does only LeBron get shade for playing with other great players?

And to the Jordan reference, Jordan didnt win jack spit without Scottie Pippen playing with him. He got beat 3x in the first round and then went to the Wizards and got beat again without Scottie

[celtics543]

Related question: Has one of these threads ever caused someone to change their mind on the GOAT debate?

It's an impossible argument because of era differences and different qualifiers that people use. Is it who dominated the most? Is it who put up the best stats? Who had the best longevity? Who would I start a team with today? Who would I start a team with in 1985?

Jordan vs Lebron is a great debate but why is Kareem not in this conversation more? Checks off every box plus he's the all time scoring leader and had incredible longevity for someone who started playing in the 70's.

Just wait 20 years and there will be another name added to this debate and people will be talking about how Jordan shouldn't be compared because his era wasn't "real basketball" and the older crowd then will defend him like the older crowd defends Wilt. Russell, and Kareem now.

[RaptorsLife]

Yes

[WestGOAT]

, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut. 

IF.

The word you're looking for is 'if'

I damn know well the difference between "when" and "if".

Lakers will handle the Nuggets which is the real finals this year.

[Parataxis]

, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut. 

IF.

The word you're looking for is 'if'

I damn know well the difference between "when" and "if".

Lakers will handle the Nuggets which is the real finals this year.

[Ballerhogger]

Can we get there first . Omg

[LivingLegend]

Related question: Has one of these threads ever caused someone to change their mind on the GOAT debate?

It's an impossible argument because of era differences and different qualifiers that people use. Is it who dominated the most? Is it who put up the best stats? Who had the best longevity? Who would I start a team with today? Who would I start a team with in 1985?

Jordan vs Lebron is a great debate but why is Kareem not in this conversation more? Checks off every box plus he's the all time scoring leader and had incredible longevity for someone who started playing in the 70's.

Just wait 20 years and there will be another name added to this debate and people will be talking about how Jordan shouldn't be compared because his era wasn't "real basketball" and the older crowd then will defend him like the older crowd defends Wilt. Russell, and Kareem now.

Because big men arnt sexy in the fans eyes. Part of it is because they are limited players no matter how much they dominate in the paint. Part of LeBrons greatness is how he is great at doing everything. He can run the offense, pass like Magic, score like Mike, guard positions 1-5 on defense, shoot from deep and bully people down low.

I think big men in general lack of perimeter play and being restricted to 1 role on each end of the floor limits their rankings in GOAT lists. Versatility matter

[Baronious]

The 3-6 finals record talk is the dumbest argument I've ever seen. We're penalizing LeBron because he overachieved and made it to the finals when his team had no business of being there? I guess he should have lost in the first round like Jordan did. That seems to be a bigger achievement in people's eyes... 2011 is the only year you can hold against him. That's it.

Jordan never had to face an all time great time like the warriors or 2014 SAS. He never had a finals appearance where both Pippen and Rodman were injured as well...

Let's also not forget Bulls won 55 games WITHOUT Jordan in 94 and almost made it to the conference finals without him. The only Lebron teams I can think of that may have been able to achieve that feat is the 2011 & 2012 Miami teams because of D Wade. Bulls winning 55 games without him and being 1 game away from the conference finals just shows how great of a team Jordan had around him. It would be fair to say he always had the superior squad in the finals. 6/6 record under those circumstances doesn't really surprise me...

What year did you start watching the NBA?

Lebron fans are something else.

Every season From 2010 until 2016 Lebron James played on the most talented team in the NBA. He did this while also playing in a horrible Eastern Conference.

When did his teams overachieve? a 3-6 record in the Finals is garbage with the amount of talent LBJ played with.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

The 2007 and 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks, and 2015 and 16 Golden St Warriors were not any better than any of teams that Jordan defeated in the 1990's.

The 17 and 18 Warriors are the only two teams that were clearly better than any team that Jordan faced.

Looks like I started watching it a lot earlier than you did. All you're doing is blindly hating without stating anything worthwhile.

07 Cavs, 15 Cavs, 18 Cavs are all teams that significantly overachieved. Those teams had no business of being in the finals. Now you're gonna come here and say but but but 15 Cavs had Love and Kyrie. Love was out of the playoffs in the first round. Kyrie was pretty much injured the whole playoff run and he was gone during the first game of the finals once he blew his knee cap. LeBron with Dellevadova as his second option took that GSW team to 6 games... but of course, haters like you will hold it against him.

16 GSW that won 73 games wasn't better than any of the teams Jordan defeated in the 1990s? Get real bro. 14 SAS and 16 GSW are far better than any team Jordan faced in the playoffs.

Like I said, the only finals you can hold against LeBron is 2011.

[celtics543]

Related question: Has one of these threads ever caused someone to change their mind on the GOAT debate?

It's an impossible argument because of era differences and different qualifiers that people use. Is it who dominated the most? Is it who put up the best stats? Who had the best longevity? Who would I start a team with today? Who would I start a team with in 1985?

Jordan vs Lebron is a great debate but why is Kareem not in this conversation more? Checks off every box plus he's the all time scoring leader and had incredible longevity for someone who started playing in the 70's.

Just wait 20 years and there will be another name added to this debate and people will be talking about how Jordan shouldn't be compared because his era wasn't "real basketball" and the older crowd then will defend him like the older crowd defends Wilt. Russell, and Kareem now.

Because big men arnt sexy in the fans eyes. Part of it is because they are limited players no matter how much they dominate in the paint. Part of LeBrons greatness is how he is great at doing everything. He can run the offense, pass like Magic, score like Mike, guard positions 1-5 on defense, shoot from deep and bully people down low.

I think big men in general lack of perimeter play and being restricted to 1 role on each end of the floor limits their rankings in GOAT lists. Versatility matter

I agree that versatility matters but the history of the league would say great big men win more often than versatile smaller players. Maybe that's changing now but that's some real recency bias.

[GWVan]

Nah