Kawhi Leonard deserves nothing but respect from this board and he would be welcome if he wants to come back

[Danny1616]

This is nonsense. 2000-01 Vince was a borderline MVP.

7.2 VORP #1 OVERALL
25.0 PER #2 OVERALL (only behind Shaq)
7.6 BPM #2 OVERALL (only behind Shaq)

What player in the last 20 yrs put up those league leading advanced stats and wasn't considered a top 10 if not top 5 player overall?

Injuries after that year brought him down from MVP level to all-star level.

Okay so VC had one superstar season. But one superstar season does not make someone a legitimate superstar. You need to do that over multiple seasons.

Compare that to Lowry who has had six all-star/borderline superstar seasons.

2020 - Lowry finished 6th in RPM (Giannis 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2019 - Lowry finished 5th in RPM (Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2018 - Lowry finished 1st in RPM (Curry was 2nd).
2017 - Lowry finished 4th in RPM (Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2016 - Lowry finished 5th in RPM (Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2015 - Lowry finished 14th in RPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

In terms of being an impact player there is no question Lowry has been a top 10 player over a long time span.

So yes it's a myth that we were not able to resign top tier level players.

What season did Lowry have where he was leading the league (or close to it) in PER, BPM and VORP? That comparison is just absurd.

Vince in his prime was a superstar. His injuries knocked him down to all-star.

First, 1 superstar or MVP caliber season does not outweigh 6 seasons of borderline superstar level play.

Second, Lowry has had top 10 level seasons in advanced stats multiple times.

2016 - Lowry was #8 in VORP, #8 in BPM, and #5 in RPM.

Why are you dismissing that Lowry has been a top 5-10 in RPM over multiple seasons.

So yes, I am taking 6 excellent seasons by Lowry over 1 MVP caliber season with Vince.

Don't know why you are trying to argue this. It's absurd on your part.

[wow09]

You can respect the guy for helping us win a title and still want his new team (that tampered all of last year) to lose.

These things are mutually exclusive.

[KrazyP]

Okay so VC had one superstar season. But one superstar season does not make someone a legitimate superstar. You need to do that over multiple seasons.

Compare that to Lowry who has had six all-star/borderline superstar seasons.

2020 - Lowry finished 6th in RPM (Giannis 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2019 - Lowry finished 5th in RPM (Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2018 - Lowry finished 1st in RPM (Curry was 2nd).
2017 - Lowry finished 4th in RPM (Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2016 - Lowry finished 5th in RPM (Curry 1st, Lebron 2nd).
2015 - Lowry finished 14th in RPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

In terms of being an impact player there is no question Lowry has been a top 10 player over a long time span.

So yes it's a myth that we were not able to resign top tier level players.

What season did Lowry have where he was leading the league (or close to it) in PER, BPM and VORP? That comparison is just absurd.

Vince in his prime was a superstar. His injuries knocked him down to all-star.

First, 1 superstar or MVP caliber season does not outweigh 6 seasons of borderline superstar level play.

Second, Lowry has had top 10 level seasons in advanced stats multiple times.

2016 - Lowry was #8 in VORP, #8 in BPM, and #5 in RPM.

Why are you dismissing that Lowry has been a top 5-10 in RPM over multiple seasons.

So yes, I am taking 6 excellent seasons by Lowry over 1 MVP caliber season with Vince.

Don't know why you are trying to argue this. It's absurd on your part.

I dont know what you are babbing about.

You said

"We perceived him as a "superstar" only because we were a new organization that did not have a winning season until VC arrived."

This is not true. I already proved it above.

If a player drops from superstar to all-star because of injuries that doesnt mean they weren't a superstar talent to begin with.

I have nothing further to say.

[Chandan]

cool, respect to kawhi. still glad his team lost before WCF.

[TheAlchemist]

He hobbled on one leg to win us a championship.

He never complained while he was here that he wanted to leave. He focused on rehabbing his leg so that he can play.

After the final victory, he couldn't WALK.

He left it all out on the court for us and won the finals MVP, brought a chip to this city.

You guys are disrespectful and ungrateful.

Wish you where here for the Vince carter days to understand what a garbage player is.

I completely agree with OP.

ok chill vince wasnt garbage, tf. mention bargnani or something, not vince

Wince Carter?

The guy who stopped dunking half way through?

We're not comparing busts like Barfnani here. We're talking about stars that are toxic. Which Vince was when he was here.

[Steelo Green]

What season did Lowry have where he was leading the league (or close to it) in PER, BPM and VORP? That comparison is just absurd.

Vince in his prime was a superstar. His injuries knocked him down to all-star.

First, 1 superstar or MVP caliber season does not outweigh 6 seasons of borderline superstar level play.

Second, Lowry has had top 10 level seasons in advanced stats multiple times.

2016 - Lowry was #8 in VORP, #8 in BPM, and #5 in RPM.

Why are you dismissing that Lowry has been a top 5-10 in RPM over multiple seasons.

So yes, I am taking 6 excellent seasons by Lowry over 1 MVP caliber season with Vince.

Don't know why you are trying to argue this. It's absurd on your part.

I dont know what you are babbing about.

You said

"We perceived him as a "superstar" only because we were a new organization that did not have a winning season until VC arrived."

This is not true. I already proved it above.

If a player drops from superstar to all-star because of injuries that doesnt mean they weren't a superstar talent to begin with.

I have nothing further to say.

Vince’s second round run season was Kawhi-esque in terms of offensive output.

Without injuries and VC could have carved out a similar offensive career. Shame.

That one season was filthy.

[Raptaz]

First, 1 superstar or MVP caliber season does not outweigh 6 seasons of borderline superstar level play.

Second, Lowry has had top 10 level seasons in advanced stats multiple times.

2016 - Lowry was #8 in VORP, #8 in BPM, and #5 in RPM.

Why are you dismissing that Lowry has been a top 5-10 in RPM over multiple seasons.

So yes, I am taking 6 excellent seasons by Lowry over 1 MVP caliber season with Vince.

Don't know why you are trying to argue this. It's absurd on your part.

I dont know what you are babbing about.

You said

"We perceived him as a "superstar" only because we were a new organization that did not have a winning season until VC arrived."

This is not true. I already proved it above.

If a player drops from superstar to all-star because of injuries that doesnt mean they weren't a superstar talent to begin with.

I have nothing further to say.

Vince’s second round run season was Kawhi-esque in terms of offensive output.

Without injuries and VC could have carved out a similar offensive career. Shame.

That one season was filthy.

Lol if kawhi wasn't injured, Carter wouldn't even have a chance to come close to a kawhi-esque season

Lol did I do this right

[blackcosmos]

I like kawhi. I respect him. But im not sure I would want him back given his condition/load management thing.

[Drygon]

i think we all respect him. nobody just liked his decision to leave us cause obviously, it wouldve been the first time we ever actually signed an actual proven superstar, other than maybe vince. our team has been treadmilling for too long and its just not fair so people like me are maybe just annoyed and impatient. we couldve had vince and t-mac, nope. we had to deal with bargnani's atrocity, we had to deal with losing bosh, then deal with the rudy gay situation where i thought we wouldve been a top team, then we were all tricked by bruno, thinking he was the next kevin durant, then we were patient with the lowry/demar dynamic duo never working, along with many more that i have missed. one championship does not do enough in my opinion. i thought it was going to be a start if anything but then kawhi had to be dramatic and wanted to go "work at home". we never catch a damn break. at this point its giannis or we r fked for another 20 years

VC was never a true superstar. He was the most exciting player in the league but he never was a top 5 player.

Revisionist history as its finest.

Peak Vince Carter was easily top 5 player at the time.

- 2nd place in PER
- 1st place in OBPM
- 2nd place in BPM
- 3rd place in VORP
- 3rd place in OWS
- 3rd place in WS.

Obviously these numbers are all 100% box-score derived and are hardly gospel, but he was an extremely efficient player due to a ridiculously low turnover rate.

His 8.2% TOV rate was the 3rd lowest in the ENTIRE NBA & strong scoring efficiency (55.1% TS against a league average of 51.8%). His +3.3 rTS would be equivalent to a 59.3 TS today (except he'd be taking more threes so that's probably understating things). He had a 114 ORTG against a league average of 103 (+11).

His impact metrics are quite excellent, too. +11.6 on/off, and #12 in the league in RAPM (with many of the guys ahead of him either playing far few minutes, playing a much smaller role, or both)

[Danny1616]

i think we all respect him. nobody just liked his decision to leave us cause obviously, it wouldve been the first time we ever actually signed an actual proven superstar, other than maybe vince. our team has been treadmilling for too long and its just not fair so people like me are maybe just annoyed and impatient. we couldve had vince and t-mac, nope. we had to deal with bargnani's atrocity, we had to deal with losing bosh, then deal with the rudy gay situation where i thought we wouldve been a top team, then we were all tricked by bruno, thinking he was the next kevin durant, then we were patient with the lowry/demar dynamic duo never working, along with many more that i have missed. one championship does not do enough in my opinion. i thought it was going to be a start if anything but then kawhi had to be dramatic and wanted to go "work at home". we never catch a damn break. at this point its giannis or we r fked for another 20 years

VC was never a true superstar. He was the most exciting player in the league but he never was a top 5 player.

Revisionist history as its finest.

Peak Vince Carter was easily top 5 player at the time.

- 2nd place in PER
- 1st place in OBPM
- 2nd place in BPM
- 3rd place in VORP
- 3rd place in OWS
- 3rd place in WS.

Obviously these numbers are all 100% box-score derived and are hardly gospel, but he was an extremely efficient player due to a ridiculously low turnover rate.

His 8.2% TOV rate was the 3rd lowest in the ENTIRE NBA & strong scoring efficiency (55.1% TS against a league average of 51.8%). His +3.3 rTS would be equivalent to a 59.3 TS today (except he'd be taking more threes so that's probably understating things). He had a 114 ORTG against a league average of 103 (+11).

His impact metrics are quite excellent, too. +11.6 on/off, and #12 in the league in RAPM (with many of the guys ahead of him either playing far few minutes, playing a much smaller role, or both)

Again, we went over this in detail.

VC had one MVP caliber year...and never came close to replicating it.

Lowry in 2016 was easily a top 10 player by every advanced metric and had more years of elite level play compared to VC.

[Drygon]

VC was never a true superstar. He was the most exciting player in the league but he never was a top 5 player.

Revisionist history as its finest.

Peak Vince Carter was easily top 5 player at the time.

- 2nd place in PER
- 1st place in OBPM
- 2nd place in BPM
- 3rd place in VORP
- 3rd place in OWS
- 3rd place in WS.

Obviously these numbers are all 100% box-score derived and are hardly gospel, but he was an extremely efficient player due to a ridiculously low turnover rate.

His 8.2% TOV rate was the 3rd lowest in the ENTIRE NBA & strong scoring efficiency (55.1% TS against a league average of 51.8%). His +3.3 rTS would be equivalent to a 59.3 TS today (except he'd be taking more threes so that's probably understating things). He had a 114 ORTG against a league average of 103 (+11).

His impact metrics are quite excellent, too. +11.6 on/off, and #12 in the league in RAPM (with many of the guys ahead of him either playing far few minutes, playing a much smaller role, or both)

Again, we went over this in detail.

VC had one MVP caliber year...and never came close to replicating it.

Lowry in 2016 was easily a top 10 player by every advanced metric and had more years of elite level play compared to VC.

Injuries is the reason Vince replicated his MVP-caliber year, but he was still All-NBA caliber player until late 2000s.

Both Lowry & Vince have same longevity, but Vince was clearly the better player in his prime.

Do you also think Lowry is better than someone like Tracy McGracy whose longevity is lackluster in comparison?

[Danny1616]

Revisionist history as its finest.

Peak Vince Carter was easily top 5 player at the time.

- 2nd place in PER
- 1st place in OBPM
- 2nd place in BPM
- 3rd place in VORP
- 3rd place in OWS
- 3rd place in WS.

Obviously these numbers are all 100% box-score derived and are hardly gospel, but he was an extremely efficient player due to a ridiculously low turnover rate.

His 8.2% TOV rate was the 3rd lowest in the ENTIRE NBA & strong scoring efficiency (55.1% TS against a league average of 51.8%). His +3.3 rTS would be equivalent to a 59.3 TS today (except he'd be taking more threes so that's probably understating things). He had a 114 ORTG against a league average of 103 (+11).

His impact metrics are quite excellent, too. +11.6 on/off, and #12 in the league in RAPM (with many of the guys ahead of him either playing far few minutes, playing a much smaller role, or both)

Again, we went over this in detail.

VC had one MVP caliber year...and never came close to replicating it.

Lowry in 2016 was easily a top 10 player by every advanced metric and had more years of elite level play compared to VC.

Injuries is the reason Vince replicated his MVP-caliber year, but he was still All-NBA caliber player until late 2000s.

Both Lowry & Vince have same longevity, but Vince was clearly the better player in his prime.

Do you also think Lowry is better than someone like Tracy McGracy whose longevity is lackluster in comparison?

Lol, you can't keep making excuses. Lowry has also had injury issues throughout his career.

Injuries or not, he never replicated that season.

Lowry between 2014 and 2020 was more valuable than VC was between 1999 and 2004 and it shouldn't even be a debate.

Lowry has sustained an elite level of play longer than VC, and he brings more than VC in terms of overall impact to the game.

So yes, you could argue that peak VC in 2001 was better than peak Lowry in 2016.

But I'm saying Lowry's overall prime was better than VC' overall prime.

[B-Ball Freak]

Yes, he helped our team win a championship doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism especially after being in the ''best player in the league'' convo which is dead now after that choke job imo. It's also how he and his team tried to snake their way through free agency and tried to use the Raptors, that left a bad taste in alot of people's mouth too.