Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

[Sprewell4Three]

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

0 rings that's fact.

But that doesn't change the fact Bron continue to seek out alphas to pursue his runs. That's facts too, no?

with 5 losing season in 5 seasons and 1-9 in the playoffs....This is the facts...Everyone need help to win.

I swear some of you guys just pop off at the mouth without any context. How old was MJ during that 1-8 run in the playoffs? Was he a seasoned veteran like Lebron was when he lost to the Mavericks?
Not only that who were the players that played with MJ during that 1-8 playoff run. And one last thing, how many points did Scottie average during his first couple of stints in the playoffs. Because all I hear is people saying Scottie carried MJ To championships.

[Cavsfansince84]

So reason Jordan win championships was due to Pippen..yup that is very true. In fact, if if it wasn't for Jordan, Pippen wouldn't been as good as he was. Jordan helped pushed Pippen to become the best he could be, Jordan was already GREAt before Pippen came in. Jordan made his team better due to that mentality of winning.

Lebron is a different story. Instead of wanting to push the other players to become great like him, he instead either joins the team that has the GREAT players, or he would put the Franchise In that searching for All Star mode to pair him up (AD, Kevin Love, etc). This what really sperate the Greatest players of all time and the One of the Greats..Lebron is one of the Greats, but not better than Jordan.

I definitely agree that MJ built Pippen into the player he became but the one factor you are leaving out in all of that is the Phil/Tex factor. It is a big part of it. Having Phil with Tex to install an offensive scheme which not only allowed MJ to flourish but also his teammates and maybe more importantly, their bench when MJ was sitting. Also, Phil's ability to keep guys motivated and playing hard when they had had enough of dealing with Jordan behind the scenes. MJ can be the goat but he likely comes nowhere to reaching that mythical status with most any other hc. MJ ended his career rather than consider playing for any other coach.

[LesGrossman]

Lebron James is a great player, but he's not going to be considered the GOAT by the majority of the public, nor should he. He's had too many blemishes and weaknesses to be best ever. Those aren't going away by winning another title.

...in the same way he won the previous ones. He has to change something to get back into consideration.

I get it, Kawhi struck so much fear into the hearts of the LeBron fanbase taht they really went overboard cheering his exit yesterday. All those crazy hot takes are nothing but the testament of the relief they felt knowing LeBron wont have to face him. But keep in mind: Kawhi's first and foremost goal for the future was to play in LA, and Bron practically begged him to join his lakers. Should we not give him respect instead of schadenfreude for turning down this really, really despisable proposal? As someone who would consider himself a fan of Kawhis game, but also professionality and attitude, would i be able to celebrate a title that would be manufactured like that?

I dont think so - i'd much rather take this L but know that Kawhi kept his integrity. So i just refuse the OP's proposal that a title, no matter how it came to be, should change the way we look at a player. Context is what matters. The context here is, LeBron once again teaming up with a prime top shelf talent, and while that guy carries the heavy load, the "volatile" part of the lakers fanbase tries to spin everything into a LeBron achievement. If 50, 60, 70% of the title come out of AD, why would it prop up LeBrons status? Good job, keep it up if it floats your boat, but the stain on his legacy - he can only do it with superstar power around him - will remain as long as he keeps doing that.

It is, ultimately, the one thing that turned me from a vivid LeBron fan back in his first seasons into someone who deeply despises him and everything he means and stands for in the game and the league. Cowardliness.

[Baronious]

What year did you start watching the NBA?

Lebron fans are something else.

Every season From 2010 until 2016 Lebron James played on the most talented team in the NBA. He did this while also playing in a horrible Eastern Conference.

When did his teams overachieve? a 3-6 record in the Finals is garbage with the amount of talent LBJ played with.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

The 2007 and 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks, and 2015 and 16 Golden St Warriors were not any better than any of teams that Jordan defeated in the 1990's.

The 17 and 18 Warriors are the only two teams that were clearly better than any team that Jordan faced.

Looks like I started watching it a lot earlier than you did. All you're doing is blindly hating without stating anything worthwhile.

07 Cavs, 15 Cavs, 18 Cavs are all teams that significantly overachieved. Those teams had no business of being in the finals. Now you're gonna come here and say but but but 15 Cavs had Love and Kyrie. Love was out of the playoffs in the first round. Kyrie was pretty much injured the whole playoff run and he was gone during the first game of the finals once he blew his knee cap. LeBron with Dellevadova as his second option took that GSW team to 6 games... but of course, haters like you will hold it against him.

16 GSW that won 73 games wasn't better than any of the teams Jordan defeated in the 1990s? Get real bro. 14 SAS and 16 GSW are far better than any team Jordan faced in the playoffs.

Like I said, the only finals you can hold against LeBron is 2011.

Why did you duck my question?

What year did you start watching the NBA?

I'm not hating anyone. My team destroyed Lebron James in the Finals, and I was there to witness it.

I do find guys you and Homer38 to be amusing. Grown men worshipping another man is strange.,,,and then these same grown men getting angry when others don't idolize these guys is different.....but to each his own.

The 2014 Spurs are exactly the type of teams that the Bulls would destroy. The Bulls destroyed deep teams with no real superstar like the 1991 Trailblazers or the 1996 Sonics.

The 91 Lakers, 93 Suns and and 97-98 Jazz were led by all time great hall of fame players. The Late 90's Jazz used to destroy Shaq/Kobe as well as TIm Duncan/David Robinson....but according to guys born in the 2000's all the other players in the NBA sucked.

Bro you're 100% blindly hating. You literally just said 16 GSW that won 73 GAMES wasn't better than any of the teams Jordan defeated . It took an all time great finals performance from LeBron (leading both teams in every major category) and Kyrie to beat them in 7.

To answer your question, I started watching the NBA in 2000. I haven't seen the 90s live, but I watched a **** ton of games from start to finish from the 90s. It's easy to say 2014 spurs are exactly the type of teams the Bulls would destroy. I can say 2017 Cavs would easily destroy 91 Lakers, 93 Suns and 97-98 Jazz as well... Nothing you say changes the fact that 2014 Spurs and 2016 GSW are far better than any team the Bulls played against. All metrics support this claim.

Players from the 90s didn't suck. However, the talent pool in the NBA is a lot larger now. The game has evolved as a whole. Defensive schemes are better etc etc.

Let's talk about Jordan's squad and how they won 55 games and almost made it to the ECF without him in 94. This alone shows that Jordan always played with superior squads in the finals without any major injuries. What happened when he didn't play with superior squads? 1-9. First round exits... It doesn't matter though because apparently first round exits are considered to be better than over achieving and making it to the finals..

Just so you know I have Jordan as the GOAT because of the way he dominated his era and total accolades. I do think LeBron impacts the game more though and has a legit case of being the better player. If Love and Kyrie doesn't get injured in 15 and Durant doesn't join GSW in 17, it'd be fair to say that he'd be going for his 6th ring right now. Cleveland also wasted a few years of his prime by not surrounding him with more talent. 09 Bron with a legit 2nd option had a pretty good chance of winning the ring.

Difference is when Lebron leaves the team, they instantly become a lottery team. When Jordan leaves the team, they end up winning 55 games and almost making it to the conference finals.

You completely ignore facts and try to nit pick every little thing to support your claims. Saying 2015 was a failure on Bron's part while knowing Love and Kyrie was out and Dellevadova was his 2nd option in the finals is enough of a reason for me to not take you serious..

[LesGrossman]

Wierd how people have a short term memory problem. LeBron got swept in the finals, then missed the whole playoffs. The whole talk was "this should ultimately end the G.O.A.T. discussions for good", feel free to pull up GB discussions, it was pretty much consensus. Now Giannis' and Kawhi's teams lose in the 2nd round and that somehow reopens the discussions on ... LeBron's G.O.A.T. status? Exactly what has changed, other than his road getting possibly even easier now, having by far the best partner in AD and no superstar oppoents left? If anything this is the easiest ring ever. No asterisk because its their own fault to not make the finals, but in my book, this title wouldnt change a thing on LeBron's legacy.

Do the same, but without the only remaining other top5 player on your team to carry the scoring load (leading the taem in PER). That would be impressive. Giannis playing next to guys the Lakers would maybe allow on the bench is honorable, failing is nothing to be ashamed of, doesnt take away from the fact that Giannis is this seasons' MVP. Kawhi getting NO help from his supposed partner PG13 who predictably folds under pressure and clanks every shot is nothing that would prop up LeBrons status.

Sometimes i wonder, do guys get paid to create such threads? Is this guerilla marketing or something? Some of the takes are so unreal i refuse to believe real people would come up with that.

When LeBron loses, it's an individual sport ... when Kawhi loses, it's a team sport

Your logic.

Actually what you describe is the opposite of what we witness every day, in the media. Its never his fault, literally.

You have not understood what i wrote. Its exactly this: The context (the team they play with, their role within that team, the degree of responsibility they carry) is essential in assessing their achievement; a title by itself means nothing, individually. Some guys who havent any rings are to be considered better than other guys who have multiple rings. So what is the purpose of this thread?

Thats why i wondered if this was an actual topic or just a commercial.

[Homer38]

Wierd how people have a short term memory problem. LeBron got swept in the finals, then missed the whole playoffs. The whole talk was "this should ultimately end the G.O.A.T. discussions for good", feel free to pull up GB discussions, it was pretty much consensus. Now Giannis' and Kawhi's teams lose in the 2nd round and that somehow reopens the discussions on ... LeBron's G.O.A.T. status? Exactly what has changed, other than his road getting possibly even easier now, having by far the best partner in AD and no superstar oppoents left? If anything this is the easiest ring ever. No asterisk because its their own fault to not make the finals, but in my book, this title wouldnt change a thing on LeBron's legacy.

Do the same, but without the only remaining other top5 player on your team to carry the scoring load (leading the taem in PER). That would be impressive. Giannis playing next to guys the Lakers would maybe allow on the bench is honorable, failing is nothing to be ashamed of, doesnt take away from the fact that Giannis is this seasons' MVP. Kawhi getting NO help from his supposed partner PG13 who predictably folds under pressure and clanks every shot is nothing that would prop up LeBrons status.

Sometimes i wonder, do guys get paid to create such threads? Is this guerilla marketing or something? Some of the takes are so unreal i refuse to believe real people would come up with that.

When LeBron loses, it's an individual sport ... when Kawhi loses, it's a team sport

Your logic.

Actually what you describe is the opposite of what we witness every day, in the media. Its never his fault, literally.

You have not understood what i wrote. Its exactly this: The context (the team they play with, their role within that team, the degree of responsibility they carry) is essential in assessing their achievement; a title by itself means nothing, individually. Some guys who havent any rings are to be considered better than other guys who have multiple rings. So what is the purpose of this thread?

Thats why i wondered if this was an actual topic or just a commercial.

Not true

[Shanghai Kid]

The only thing about this specific ring for Lebron is that AD is basically a historically great player and having one of the best playoff runs ever in his own right. So if AD is his sidekick, than he's statistically the best #2 in NBA history.

Also, in the finals, Lebron will be playing a #3 seed Boston or a #5 seed Boston, where the best players...are Jason Tatum and Jimmy Butler. The two teams that many thought could challenge them were the Clippers and the Bucks. Lakers will have not played either.

Lebron's #2 is better than those teams #1.

In a nutshell, the stack is decked for Lebron and it would likely be considered one of the easier rings ever.

[Pointgod]

LeBron stans are insufferable. This is why people root against him.

They are literally the worst.

[LesGrossman]

When LeBron loses, it's an individual sport ... when Kawhi loses, it's a team sport

Your logic.

Actually what you describe is the opposite of what we witness every day, in the media. Its never his fault, literally.

You have not understood what i wrote. Its exactly this: The context (the team they play with, their role within that team, the degree of responsibility they carry) is essential in assessing their achievement; a title by itself means nothing, individually. Some guys who havent any rings are to be considered better than other guys who have multiple rings. So what is the purpose of this thread?

Thats why i wondered if this was an actual topic or just a commercial.

Not true

ok.

[Jonny Blaze]

Looks like I started watching it a lot earlier than you did. All you're doing is blindly hating without stating anything worthwhile.

07 Cavs, 15 Cavs, 18 Cavs are all teams that significantly overachieved. Those teams had no business of being in the finals. Now you're gonna come here and say but but but 15 Cavs had Love and Kyrie. Love was out of the playoffs in the first round. Kyrie was pretty much injured the whole playoff run and he was gone during the first game of the finals once he blew his knee cap. LeBron with Dellevadova as his second option took that GSW team to 6 games... but of course, haters like you will hold it against him.

16 GSW that won 73 games wasn't better than any of the teams Jordan defeated in the 1990s? Get real bro. 14 SAS and 16 GSW are far better than any team Jordan faced in the playoffs.

Like I said, the only finals you can hold against LeBron is 2011.

Why did you duck my question?

What year did you start watching the NBA?

I'm not hating anyone. My team destroyed Lebron James in the Finals, and I was there to witness it.

I do find guys you and Homer38 to be amusing. Grown men worshipping another man is strange.,,,and then these same grown men getting angry when others don't idolize these guys is different.....but to each his own.

The 2014 Spurs are exactly the type of teams that the Bulls would destroy. The Bulls destroyed deep teams with no real superstar like the 1991 Trailblazers or the 1996 Sonics.

The 91 Lakers, 93 Suns and and 97-98 Jazz were led by all time great hall of fame players. The Late 90's Jazz used to destroy Shaq/Kobe as well as TIm Duncan/David Robinson....but according to guys born in the 2000's all the other players in the NBA sucked.

Bro you're 100% blindly hating. You literally just said 16 GSW that won 73 GAMES wasn't better than any of the teams Jordan defeated . It took an all time great finals performance from LeBron (leading both teams in every major category) and Kyrie to beat them in 7.

To answer your question, I started watching the NBA in 2000. I haven't seen the 90s live, but I watched a **** ton of games from start to finish from the 90s. It's easy to say 2014 spurs are exactly the type of teams the Bulls would destroy. I can say 2017 Cavs would easily destroy 91 Lakers, 93 Suns and 97-98 Jazz as well... Nothing you say changes the fact that 2014 Spurs and 2016 GSW are far better than any team the Bulls played against. All metrics support this claim.

Players from the 90s didn't suck. However, the talent pool in the NBA is a lot larger now. The game has evolved as a whole. Defensive schemes are better etc etc.

Let's talk about Jordan's squad and how they won 55 games and almost made it to the ECF without him in 94. This alone shows that Jordan always played with superior squads in the finals without any major injuries. What happened when he didn't play with superior squads? 1-9. First round exits... It doesn't matter though because apparently first round exits are considered to be better than over achieving and making it to the finals..

Just so you know I have Jordan as the GOAT because of the way he dominated his era and total accolades. I do think LeBron impacts the game more though and has a legit case of being the better player. If Love and Kyrie doesn't get injured in 15 and Durant doesn't join GSW in 17, it'd be fair to say that he'd be going for his 6th ring right now. Cleveland also wasted a few years of his prime by not surrounding him with more talent. 09 Bron with a legit 2nd option had a pretty good chance of winning the ring.

Difference is when Lebron leaves the team, they instantly become a lottery team. When Jordan leaves the team, they end up winning 55 games and almost making it to the conference finals.

You completely ignore facts and try to nit pick every little thing to support your claims. Saying 2015 was a failure on Bron's part while knowing Love and Kyrie was out and Dellevadova was his 2nd option in the finals is enough of a reason for me to not take you serious..

Thank you for being honest. It truly is appreciated.

Im a little older than you. Started watching the NBA in the early 1980's. The first time team that ever blew me away was the 1984 Celtics.

I don't speak about the 60's or 70's era basketball because I was not alive to see it.

Im not directly speaking directly to you (but I kinda am) It gets really irritating listening to people that I know where not alive to see Michael Jordan play..... act like they are such experts on 1990's NBA basketball, or who was good and who wasn't.


One of the biggest excuses that I hear from Lebron fans is that Jordan didn't beat anyone in the Finals (not true) and Lebron has played against so much tougher competition (not true at all).

The 1998 Utah Jazz would have a case as one the Greatest teams of All time if they had beaten the Bulls. They would have swept a 60 win Shaq/Kobe Laker team, defeated Tim Duncan/David Robinson Spurs, and then been the only team to defeat the Bulls.

But because they lost.....younger fans act like the Utah Jazz and Sonics were not great teams....when they are the exact same caliber of teams as the Mavs, Spurs, OKC...etc
To Lebron fans....its almost as if they would respect Jordan and the Bulls more if they had lost to the teams they were beating.

The 2017 & 18 Warriors are the only two teams that are clearly better than any team Jordan beat...and that's because the 2017 Warriors are one of the greatest NBA teams of all time.


Another false hood that I hear is that Magic Johnson and the Lakers were old, and over the hill in 1991.....despite Magic finishing 2nd in MVP voting, the Lakers going 58-24 and beating Portland in the WCF without HCA. (I thought the 1991 Lakers were going to beat the Bulls, especially after Sam Perkins hit that huge 3 in Game 1 for the Lakers).

If Magic did not get HIV he (and the Lakers) would have still been an elite player for at least another 4 or 5 seasons.

20 years from now you are going to have some kid telling you the Golden St Warriors were not that good, and that Lebron was overrated.



I've seen the entire Lebron and Michael Jordan era with my own two eyes.
Lebron James was not as good as Michael Jordan...period.
I don't know anyone (aside from the Bad Boy Pistons) that has seen both play and says that LBJ is better.

And I think LBJ is badass. He is an amazing player. What is truly going to set him apart is not the rings or stats....its his amazing conditioning. The fact that in his 14-17th year he is still the best player in the league is remarkable.

[SichtingLives]

For as long as you have to beg for something that isn't yours, it isn't yours.

[gp2015]

Mostly only people that consider LeBron to be the GOAT, are the people who have never watched MJ play.

That or they're LeBron homers.

[1993Playoffs]

Been in my top 2 since 2018. Another title just increases his goat case

[10DayContract]

The GOAT involves a feeling, not just stats and results. LeBron doesn't do it for me, and millions of others. Sorry.

[Sark]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[1993Playoffs]

Also LeBron‘s 2016 finals performance is better than any Jordan finals imo.

[TheFinishSniper]

jordan fans are worried about this situation

they will NEVER EVER EVER be worried about this situation. put that clearly in head of yours. but dont worry rest of us will always be here as guardians so idiots never get chance to push false narratives which fits their ideology.

[The4thHorseman]

What year did you start watching the NBA?

Lebron fans are something else.

Every season From 2010 until 2016 Lebron James played on the most talented team in the NBA. He did this while also playing in a horrible Eastern Conference.

When did his teams overachieve? a 3-6 record in the Finals is garbage with the amount of talent LBJ played with.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

The 2007 and 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks, and 2015 and 16 Golden St Warriors were not any better than any of teams that Jordan defeated in the 1990's.

The 17 and 18 Warriors are the only two teams that were clearly better than any team that Jordan faced.

The 2010, 2015 and 2016 Cavs best team in the league???

2014 Heat best team???

Thanks for the laugh.

You just made my point.

Since you won't answer what year you started watching the NBA....and based on the maturity of your retorts I am going to assume you were born in something like 95 or 96, and probably started following the NBA around the time Lebron entered the league.

You most likely never watched Michael Jordan play.

All of those teams prior to the start of the season where considered the most TALENTED team in the NBA. But all of them got smoked. None of them ended up being that great.



Every Lebron fan loves to rewrite history because their boo thang has lost so much in the Finals.....


The Cleveland Cavaliers led by Lebron James, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love were the pre-season favorite to win the 2015 and 2016 NBA Finals.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

To the Lebron fans:
8 years ago I honestly thought that Lebron was going to dominate the 2010's like Jordan did in the 1990's when some of the elite talent fell off and retired.......and then the Golden St Warriors happened.

Its pretty obvious why you LBJ super fans have such a dislike of the Warriors and Kevin Durant. Its ruined your narrative of Lebron being this ultimate winner.

An ultimate winner who has stacked the deck in his favor his entire career by teaming up with other superstar players has a 3-6 record in the Finals.....with 2007, 2011, 2014, 2017 and 2018 not being close at all.



Lebron has a losing record in the Finals to Dirk, Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant and Steph Curry.

That is not GOATISH level stuff....especially compared to Michael Jordan.

Since when did pre-season rankings become the tell all end all to whose the most talented team? Do you bet big money on the pre-season favorite (before the season starts) in all 4 major sports leagues? Yeah, I didnt think so.

[Spanish_Laker]

The Anti-LeBron stans are even more insufferable.

[The Rodzilla]

jordan fans are worried about this situation

they will NEVER EVER EVER be worried about this situation. put that clearly in head of yours. but dont worry rest of us will always be here as guardians so idiots never get chance to push false narratives which fits their ideology.

you are worried and are only acting like you arent worried as a tactic to downplay lebron, its ok to admit this

i personally guarantee that the jordan fans including you are rooting against lebron every season and dont want him to add to his championship total, if you dont mind how lebron does then feel free to refute this accusation