Turner to the Celtics - How?

[pacers33granger]

I would also add that I don't see us agreeing to pay Hayward much on an extension or new deal. I think we'd want it to be close to Turner's number of $18 mil. We certainly would not go up to 4/100.

[Scoot McGroot]

I guess it depends on the next coach. If its Pringles, I would guess Bjelica/Warren would be sharing a ton of time at the 4.

I think 14/26 gives you an opportunity to make moves elsewhere.

I could also see this expanded to include Aaron Gordon. Something where Holmes or Kanter/Lamb and 1 of the picks is routed to Orlando for Gordon.

Final roster for Pacers would be

Sabonis/Goga
Gordon/Bjelica
Warren/Justin Holiday
Dipo/Aaron Holiday
Brogdan/TJ

While still retaining #26

If it’s D’Antoni, a Sabonis/Gordon duo at the 4/5 spots seems like one of the worst possible combos in the league. Neither is a reliable 3 point shooter in any way, shape, or form. And Gordon can’t really defend or distribute (or just isn’t willing to). What’s he going to do for an MDA system?

And can’t afford to resign Justin Holiday in that scenario either due to luxury tax.

I said if its D'Antoni I imagine it would be Bjelica and Warren?

Also the scenario where you guys swap Turner/Lamb for Gordon/Bjelica it actually reduces your overall payroll by about 3 million or so. So if resigning Justin isn't possible in this scenario, then it isn't possible right now.

I was replying to your idea that if it’s “Pringle’s” (I assume you mean MDA?) and then said to include the deal of adding Gordon. Which also I think still had Holmes heading to Indy? Any cost cutting is gone at that point.

[Scoot McGroot]

If it’s D’Antoni, a Sabonis/Gordon duo at the 4/5 spots seems like one of the worst possible combos in the league. Neither is a reliable 3 point shooter in any way, shape, or form. And Gordon can’t really defend or distribute (or just isn’t willing to). What’s he going to do for an MDA system?

And can’t afford to resign Justin Holiday in that scenario either due to luxury tax.

I said if its D'Antoni I imagine it would be Bjelica and Warren?

Also the scenario where you guys swap Turner/Lamb for Gordon/Bjelica it actually reduces your overall payroll by about 3 million or so. So if resigning Justin isn't possible in this scenario, then it isn't possible right now.

I think everyone agrees, Justin is leaving and not playing for 6 mil. He will get at least 25% more than that and this will be the first time he can make some money.

We can use the MLE to sign and keep him as we are now. Dump Leaf and there’s plenty of room. But not in this scenario. We can use the MLE instead of his non bird rights, but only to keep him, and not in a S&T.

[Scoot McGroot]

I think the Kings should be involved, but i've got a bit of a different idea here.

Celtics out: Hayward, Kanter, Romeo, #14, #26
Celtics in: Barnes & Turner

Celtics get Turner, and also another big wing.

Kings out: Barnes, Bjelica, Holmes
Kings in: Romeo, Hayward, Kanter

Kings get Hayward and Romeo for 3 good vets.

Pacers Out: Turner
Pacers in: Bjelica, Holmes, #14, #26

Pacers pick up 2 1st round picks, and get some better fitting pieces for the front court.

Neither is better fitting than Turner though. And both would compete to fill the backup big spots, but creates a crater at the starting big spot at the 4. Is the 14/26 supposed to fill the starting 4 spot?

Why wouldn't Bjelica play the 4? he is not a rebounder, but neither is turner, he is a better shooter. He can defend 4s too.
But I would think that precious would be the target at 14 for sure and 26 orturo/nadji/Stewart

He’s just a massive downgrade at 4 from Turner. He’d play the 4 but he’s much more a bench 4, creating a massive hole at the starting 4 spot that we would need to fill over him. Any draft picks are likely 3-4 years from possibly starting at a 4 and being a positive in that role.

[Scoot McGroot]

I do want to make one note on Hayward expiring... it’s very logistical to add years on. Normally that’s tough to do because players won’t take less to extend but Hayward isn’t in that boat. He’s very much a trade and extend candidate rather than a trade and hope he stays guy. Obviously they’d have to come to terms with him but it’s a realistic possibility.

I wouldn’t assume that. Why would Hayward lock up a possibly sub market deal now at quite a bit of length? Why wouldn’t he play out the year and then see what he can get? Why lock yourself out kore than a year before the market other than fear that you’re going to decline quickly, and then the other team should have no interest in the extension. It’s a weird Catch-22.

I am conservative financially, so I think of players and others who are not conservative with money as foolish. If I was hayward, I already made 150 mill and this is my last go round in all likelihood. I leverage my current deal of 34 mill to get a new deal at 4 and 100 to ride out my career. I do this with the eye on if this covid acts up again in the winter, revenue is down 25% and the money will dry up. I also have missed 15 games this year and if I miss 15 more my market value will plummet in this new environment. I am a get mine now kind of guy. I rather be assured of 100 mil than the possibility of getting 75-125 mill over the next 4 years.

Who’s offering him 4/100, now? Sure, he’d take that, but that’s not conservative, that’s quite a bold statement. Once he hits unrestricted in 2021 and is one of the likely team switchers, he really might get 4/115. So, 4/80 now, or 4/115 by waiting?

[LightTheBeam]

If it’s D’Antoni, a Sabonis/Gordon duo at the 4/5 spots seems like one of the worst possible combos in the league. Neither is a reliable 3 point shooter in any way, shape, or form. And Gordon can’t really defend or distribute (or just isn’t willing to). What’s he going to do for an MDA system?

And can’t afford to resign Justin Holiday in that scenario either due to luxury tax.

I said if its D'Antoni I imagine it would be Bjelica and Warren?

Also the scenario where you guys swap Turner/Lamb for Gordon/Bjelica it actually reduces your overall payroll by about 3 million or so. So if resigning Justin isn't possible in this scenario, then it isn't possible right now.

I was replying to your idea that if it’s “Pringle’s” (I assume you mean MDA?) and then said to include the deal of adding Gordon. Which also I think still had Holmes heading to Indy? Any cost cutting is gone at that point.

So I think theres some confusion here.

I said if Pringles is the coach MDA, then I assume Warren/Bjelica would play the 4.

But another alternative to the trade would be having Gordon includes (this is separate from MDA being the coach). In this situation Holmes or Kanter would get routed to Orlando with the other in Sac. Neither would be going to Indiana.

It would be Indiana getting Gordon/Bjelica/#14/#26 for Lamb/Turner from Indis perspective.

[patman66]

I would also add that I don't see us agreeing to pay Hayward much on an extension or new deal. I think we'd want it to be close to Turner's number of $18 mil. We certainly would not go up to 4/100.

An 18 mill wing is levert, Prince THJ, fournier, you are not going to get a hayward type wing for that price. You are much more likely to get a 4-5 big. You have gold with warren, those deals are surprises and not the norm. If you think hayward is only worth 18 that is surprising, to a fan that is willing to pay dipo 33.

[patman66]

I wouldn’t assume that. Why would Hayward lock up a possibly sub market deal now at quite a bit of length? Why wouldn’t he play out the year and then see what he can get? Why lock yourself out kore than a year before the market other than fear that you’re going to decline quickly, and then the other team should have no interest in the extension. It’s a weird Catch-22.

I am conservative financially, so I think of players and others who are not conservative with money as foolish. If I was hayward, I already made 150 mill and this is my last go round in all likelihood. I leverage my current deal of 34 mill to get a new deal at 4 and 100 to ride out my career. I do this with the eye on if this covid acts up again in the winter, revenue is down 25% and the money will dry up. I also have missed 15 games this year and if I miss 15 more my market value will plummet in this new environment. I am a get mine now kind of guy. I rather be assured of 100 mil than the possibility of getting 75-125 mill over the next 4 years.

Who’s offering him 4/100, now? Sure, he’d take that, but that’s not conservative, that’s quite a bold statement. Once he hits unrestricted in 2021 and is one of the likely team switchers, he really might get 4/115. So, 4/80 now, or 4/115 by waiting?

I think the celts do as it gets us out the repeater tax by dropping his salary to approx 22, 24. 27 29

[patman66]

Neither is better fitting than Turner though. And both would compete to fill the backup big spots, but creates a crater at the starting big spot at the 4. Is the 14/26 supposed to fill the starting 4 spot?

Why wouldn't Bjelica play the 4? he is not a rebounder, but neither is turner, he is a better shooter. He can defend 4s too.
But I would think that precious would be the target at 14 for sure and 26 orturo/nadji/Stewart

He’s just a massive downgrade at 4 from Turner. He’d play the 4 but he’s much more a bench 4, creating a massive hole at the starting 4 spot that we would need to fill over him. Any draft picks are likely 3-4 years from possibly starting at a 4 and being a positive in that role.

I am refereing to may proposal that has Bjelica and Jymchal Green coming to Indy,
in 20 min green give 5 rebounds and shoots 3s at a .38 clip over the last three years
in 28 min bjlica gives you 6 rebounds and shots 3s at a .400 clip over three years.

I don't see that as a massive hole.

At the back up 5 Theis give you 24 min 6.5 rebounds and shoots with a .600 clip

I don't see a massive hole there either.

The 14th pick could be used on precious who needs a year, but is a Siakem/Bam style big on the upside.

Langford is or will be a fan favorite and is locked up for three years.

[pacers33granger]

I would also add that I don't see us agreeing to pay Hayward much on an extension or new deal. I think we'd want it to be close to Turner's number of $18 mil. We certainly would not go up to 4/100.

An 18 mill wing is levert, Prince THJ, fournier, you are not going to get a hayward type wing for that price. You are much more likely to get a 4-5 big. You have gold with warren, those deals are surprises and not the norm. If you think hayward is only worth 18 that is surprising, to a fan that is willing to pay dipo 33.

Totally understand that. I would not expect him to take that offer and think he's worth more. Indy's finance issues are overblown, but they still have to be careful with their money. I don't think the team would be comfortable paying a combo of Vic/Hayward close to $60 mil a year for that many years. It's nothing at all against Hayward.

The reality is that the team is committed to keeping Vic and has the rest of the starters on good to decent contracts, but the 3 other guys (sans Turner) still add up to a bit over $51 mil. So beyond the investment risk and losing Turner, we'd likely be losing another key role player due to the finances (Holiday, McDermott, etc.). I just don't see it as workable unless he's willing to take a pretty sizable discount.

[100proof]

I don't think there's a deal there to be had without a 3rd team somehow. Boston certainly have the value, but the fit isn't good.

- Hayward doesn't fit our timeline and forces either him or Warren to be the PF next to Domas. That's very very bad for our defense.
- I'd personally love Smart, but we have more than enough guards as is.
- Brown is worth much more than Turner.
- No team hates picks, but we're not in the market for them now (or ever really).
- We'd be looking to consolidate talent, not dilute it.

As other Indy fans have pointed out, find us a good defensive PF that can hit threes and we'll talk. But that guy isn't on the table for Turner. Plus Turner is like 80% of that, so it makes the most sense to stick with him.

Hayward and Kanter to Kings
Barnes and a pick to Indy
Turner, Bjelica and McDermott to Boston.

There is your PF that defends and makes 3s.

[patman66]

I would also add that I don't see us agreeing to pay Hayward much on an extension or new deal. I think we'd want it to be close to Turner's number of $18 mil. We certainly would not go up to 4/100.

An 18 mill wing is levert, Prince THJ, fournier, you are not going to get a hayward type wing for that price. You are much more likely to get a 4-5 big. You have gold with warren, those deals are surprises and not the norm. If you think hayward is only worth 18 that is surprising, to a fan that is willing to pay dipo 33.

Totally understand that. I would not expect him to take that offer and think he's worth more. Indy's finance issues are overblown, but they still have to be careful with their money. I don't think the team would be comfortable paying a combo of Vic/Hayward close to $60 mil a year for that many years. It's nothing at all against Hayward.

The reality is that the team is committed to keeping Vic and has the rest of the starters on good to decent contracts, but the 3 other guys (sans Turner) still add up to a bit over $51 mil. So beyond the investment risk and losing Turner, we'd likely be losing another key role player due to the finances (Holiday, McDermott, etc.). I just don't see it as workable unless he's willing to take a pretty sizable discount.

Ok great, I understand what you mean now- what you are willing to pay and what he is worth and the constraints that indy has as a pro team in a smaller market. But I think it is unreasonable view by some that they expect a better fit at the 4 but at the same overall talent level of turner and for the same price. That is not gong to happen. Atlanta is not trading you john collins with Cappela. Orlando does not want Turner, Siakem, Maybe PJ Washington, Draymont Green is a match, but the last two years he don't seem like the same guy. Collins from Portland? not with nurkic. there are not a lot of good 4s on teams that don't have 5s, or that one that do like toronto and boston the 4s are too much value for turner.

[djFan71]

I don't think there's a deal there to be had without a 3rd team somehow. Boston certainly have the value, but the fit isn't good.

- Hayward doesn't fit our timeline and forces either him or Warren to be the PF next to Domas. That's very very bad for our defense.
- I'd personally love Smart, but we have more than enough guards as is.
- Brown is worth much more than Turner.
- No team hates picks, but we're not in the market for them now (or ever really).
- We'd be looking to consolidate talent, not dilute it.

As other Indy fans have pointed out, find us a good defensive PF that can hit threes and we'll talk. But that guy isn't on the table for Turner. Plus Turner is like 80% of that, so it makes the most sense to stick with him.

Hayward and Kanter to Kings
Barnes and a pick to Indy
Turner, Bjelica and McDermott to Boston.

There is your PF that defends and makes 3s.

You know my "Hayward's not opting in to get traded by draft time to go to the Kings" theory by now, so.... you could expand on that and send him to DAL and Wright/THJ to SAC. They still get off Barnes' long term money and save money this year too.

https://tradenba.com/trades/5SCC7SOKr

BOS makes out pretty good in this one, they probably need to send 26 too. Not sure who deserves it more, though - IND or SAC. Maybe split the difference. Keep 26. 30 to IND, 47 to SAC.

EDIT: Maybe BOS doesn't send picks, I dunno, lol.... DAL probably adds a future second to SAC and IND takes it or leaves it.

[BullyKing]

I don't think there's a deal there to be had without a 3rd team somehow. Boston certainly have the value, but the fit isn't good.

- Hayward doesn't fit our timeline and forces either him or Warren to be the PF next to Domas. That's very very bad for our defense.
- I'd personally love Smart, but we have more than enough guards as is.
- Brown is worth much more than Turner.
- No team hates picks, but we're not in the market for them now (or ever really).
- We'd be looking to consolidate talent, not dilute it.

As other Indy fans have pointed out, find us a good defensive PF that can hit threes and we'll talk. But that guy isn't on the table for Turner. Plus Turner is like 80% of that, so it makes the most sense to stick with him.

Hayward and Kanter to Kings
Barnes and a pick to Indy
Turner, Bjelica and McDermott to Boston.

There is your PF that defends and makes 3s.

You know my "Hayward's not opting in to get traded by draft time to go to the Kings" theory by now, so.... you could expand on that and send him to DAL and Wright/THJ to SAC. They still get off Barnes' long term money and save money this year too.

https://tradenba.com/trades/5SCC7SOKr

BOS makes out pretty good in this one, they probably need to send 26 too. Not sure who deserves it more, though - IND or SAC. Maybe split the difference. Keep 26. 30 to IND, 47 to SAC.

I think Boston makes out way too well here. Hayward is a good player but also expiring. I don't think a late first comes close to turning that into Turner and Bjelica since that's basically Bjelica's value alone.

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

Hayward and Kanter to Kings
Barnes and a pick to Indy
Turner, Bjelica and McDermott to Boston.

There is your PF that defends and makes 3s.

You know my "Hayward's not opting in to get traded by draft time to go to the Kings" theory by now, so.... you could expand on that and send him to DAL and Wright/THJ to SAC. They still get off Barnes' long term money and save money this year too.

https://tradenba.com/trades/5SCC7SOKr

BOS makes out pretty good in this one, they probably need to send 26 too. Not sure who deserves it more, though - IND or SAC. Maybe split the difference. Keep 26. 30 to IND, 47 to SAC.

I think Boston makes out way too well here. Hayward is a good player but also expiring. I don't think a late first comes close to turning that into Turner and Bjelica since that's basically Bjelica's value alone.

I have such a hard time valuing him. Healthy, extended Hayward is one of the best assets available - a playmaking, shooting wing with good defense. Fits on any team. If he agrees to a 3/$60M extension or something, then DAL makes out huge. But, does DAL even want that? Will they gamble that the ankle sprain could have happened to anyone and commit the extra years?

I also value Turner less than others. Like him a lot, but it's not where I want to spend my money. I get his contract is cheap, but it's still $18M, and BOS has made do with Baynes, Theis, etc. I'd rather keep Theis @ $5M, R Williams on a rookie deal. Then spend money on the shot creating wings. Exceptions to the $ at center rule are ones like Jokic/AD who also create offense for you.

If I'm BOS I keep Hayward and do that extension (or a 4/$100M+ like Jaylen) and keep rolling. But, I do love a good trade proposal, and if it's time to part ways, there are options. But, I'm not giving a ton of assets away to make it happen.

[basketballwacko2]

What does that deal look like?

Evan Turner? Sign him.


Myles Turner there is no possible way there is a deal to be made that doesn't screw up any chances the Pacers have of being a better team in 2021

[Wizop]

there are not a lot of good 4s on teams that don't have 5s, or that one that do like toronto and boston the 4s are too much value for turner.

We would rather send Vic West and keep Turner. Then we don't need a starting 4. We just need one worthy of 24 backup minutes half with Turner and half with Sabonis. Vic is worth more than a backup so maybe a smaller deal can be found.

[basketballwacko2]

It's tough. From the Boston perspective you'd love to use Hayward plus picks as the path there, but that likely requires a 3rd team and even then its tricky.

something like Hayward/#14/future pick(s) for Turner/Lamb with Boston likely using its late firsts to dump Lamb elsewhere. But with no extension that's a tough sell for Indy. Maybe a 3rd team to take Hayward?

I don't believe the Pacers have any interest in Hayward given his huge salary and short term. In addition who plays PF/C on this team now? They already don't have a playable backup at PF and the backup center is Goga who is not going to be ready in 2021.

[Scoot McGroot]

Why wouldn't Bjelica play the 4? he is not a rebounder, but neither is turner, he is a better shooter. He can defend 4s too.
But I would think that precious would be the target at 14 for sure and 26 orturo/nadji/Stewart

He’s just a massive downgrade at 4 from Turner. He’d play the 4 but he’s much more a bench 4, creating a massive hole at the starting 4 spot that we would need to fill over him. Any draft picks are likely 3-4 years from possibly starting at a 4 and being a positive in that role.

I am refereing to may proposal that has Bjelica and Jymchal Green coming to Indy,
in 20 min green give 5 rebounds and shoots 3s at a .38 clip over the last three years
in 28 min bjlica gives you 6 rebounds and shots 3s at a .400 clip over three years.

I don't see that as a massive hole.

At the back up 5 Theis give you 24 min 6.5 rebounds and shoots with a .600 clip

I don't see a massive hole there either.

The 14th pick could be used on precious who needs a year, but is a Siakem/Bam style big on the upside.

Langford is or will be a fan favorite and is locked up for three years.

If you could combine all those guys into one, no drop off. But it takes 72 minutes a night, as you listed, for them to produce ok numbers in a game that’s only 48 minutes long. And that’s numbers, not even impact.

And if it was so simple to get Bam/Siakam at 14, why don’t teams get them every year? Infinitely rare, not something to just assume will happen.

As for Langford, yeah, he’s an Indiana guy, but he definitely didn’t elicit any warm feelings at IU. He was supposed to be the savior, and is unfairly denigrated for playing through the thumb injury. He’s not Oladipo beloved at all.

[Scoot McGroot]

I don't think there's a deal there to be had without a 3rd team somehow. Boston certainly have the value, but the fit isn't good.

- Hayward doesn't fit our timeline and forces either him or Warren to be the PF next to Domas. That's very very bad for our defense.
- I'd personally love Smart, but we have more than enough guards as is.
- Brown is worth much more than Turner.
- No team hates picks, but we're not in the market for them now (or ever really).
- We'd be looking to consolidate talent, not dilute it.

As other Indy fans have pointed out, find us a good defensive PF that can hit threes and we'll talk. But that guy isn't on the table for Turner. Plus Turner is like 80% of that, so it makes the most sense to stick with him.

Hayward and Kanter to Kings
Barnes and a pick to Indy
Turner, Bjelica and McDermott to Boston.

There is your PF that defends and makes 3s.

You know my "Hayward's not opting in to get traded by draft time to go to the Kings" theory by now, so.... you could expand on that and send him to DAL and Wright/THJ to SAC. They still get off Barnes' long term money and save money this year too.

https://tradenba.com/trades/5SCC7SOKr

BOS makes out pretty good in this one, they probably need to send 26 too. Not sure who deserves it more, though - IND or SAC. Maybe split the difference. Keep 26. 30 to IND, 47 to SAC.

EDIT: Maybe BOS doesn't send picks, I dunno, lol.... DAL probably adds a future second to SAC and IND takes it or leaves it.

Indy “leaves it”. Doesn’t even listen to the end of the phone call to take it or leave it.