Knicks rumoured to offer FVV 22M per year

[maternal85]

I don't believe this. This doesn't move the needle for new york. Why do this ? Also Fred is not going anywhere. A 50 win team, being out in the 2nd round, is more profitable than a lottery team with no hope. MLSE doesn't plan to go back to the lottery days.

But if that contract hinders you from signing someone down the road or making moves that help you become an actual contender (and you know, get out of the 2nd round) then it is an issue. I understand trying to retain an asset. But that doesn't always work out and there is no guarantee that we can move him. It is much harder to move large, newly-signed contracts without moving assets along with them (even for decent players). Which then seems like a waste.

There are desperate teams out there that want to make a splash (i.e. Knicks) and are willing to pay a lot to make it happen. That is why it isn't crazy that the Knicks would sign Fred for above his market value. Fred is also benefitting from a very poor FA class, being one of the biggest names out there, and being unrestricted. Fred's cap hold is around 17mil, I think that is a fair value for what he brings and the clear weaknesses he has. That's why I think the 17-20mil range is more than fair from the Raptors. Anything above... you're basically paying a premium for your own player.

Also, we went down the whole "a good team but not a contender route" with the Demar lead teams. A championship run or perennial contender is better than a first or second-round exit if you're looking at just a fiscal situation. So why would MLSE/Raptors FO settle for just that? It isn't like we are completely stuck if Fred leaves either. Lowry is here next year, Davis has shown flashes, 2021 FA has a ton of PGs, and there is always a trade route if worse comes to worst.

For me, it comes down to a simple question. Are Pascal and Van Vleet good enough to lead a contending team (post-Lowry) and eating up over 60mil of your cap? And I don't see it. I think Pascal will be fine and probably get better but he's probably better as a number two guy.

First it's a business, both MU and FVV know that. Second, they'll always be a market for any contract period. If OKC can trade Westbrook's 40 million per year contraxct, you can trade FVV. Remember the cap is bound to increase as they years go by. People once thought Powell was overpaid. Now years later its a bargain contract. But to answer your question.

1. You can definitely move FVV. He's durable, a good shooter, good player, good attitude, etc. A team will take a chance on him. Even if a team trades for FVV just to buy him out later on to save money. They'll always be a market for any player. Remember, some people were upset Derozan got the max. Some people say you could never trade "DeChoke". Well Derozan and his contract ended up getting us KL2.

2. Unless you have a Lebron James it's almost impossible to predict you'll at least make the conference finals, and win a title. It's safer and more profitable to be a 50 win, 2nd round playoff team, than try to go for it all. To go for it all, it really has to be a calculated move where you get ready for the "what if it doesn't work out". Or it can comeback and back fire on you. It looks like things may back fire for the clippers for example. Lowry has 1-2 years left in him. TD is developing nicely but you don't want to rush him. Even if 2021 has a ton of FA, since when did we become a top FA destination ? And like you said there's always a trade route. You need assets and/or picks to make a trade. Fred would be an asset.

3. Teams and GM's don't think like that. Fred and Pascal will never be good enough to lead a team. We all know. What MU and his team are thinking is that we didn't take a chance on this guy, develop him, only for him to go to the Knicks with no compensation.

[UneducatedFan86]

I don't believe this. This doesn't move the needle for new york. Why do this ? Also Fred is not going anywhere. A 50 win team, being out in the 2nd round, is more profitable than a lottery team with no hope. MLSE doesn't plan to go back to the lottery days.

But if that contract hinders you from signing someone down the road or making moves that help you become an actual contender (and you know, get out of the 2nd round) then it is an issue. I understand trying to retain an asset. But that doesn't always work out and there is no guarantee that we can move him. It is much harder to move large, newly-signed contracts without moving assets along with them (even for decent players). Which then seems like a waste.

There are desperate teams out there that want to make a splash (i.e. Knicks) and are willing to pay a lot to make it happen. That is why it isn't crazy that the Knicks would sign Fred for above his market value. Fred is also benefitting from a very poor FA class, being one of the biggest names out there, and being unrestricted. Fred's cap hold is around 17mil, I think that is a fair value for what he brings and the clear weaknesses he has. That's why I think the 17-20mil range is more than fair from the Raptors. Anything above... you're basically paying a premium for your own player.

Also, we went down the whole "a good team but not a contender route" with the Demar lead teams. A championship run or perennial contender is better than a first or second-round exit if you're looking at just a fiscal situation. So why would MLSE/Raptors FO settle for just that? It isn't like we are completely stuck if Fred leaves either. Lowry is here next year, Davis has shown flashes, 2021 FA has a ton of PGs, and there is always a trade route if worse comes to worst.

For me, it comes down to a simple question. Are Pascal and Van Vleet good enough to lead a contending team (post-Lowry) and eating up over 60mil of your cap? And I don't see it. I think Pascal will be fine and probably get better but he's probably better as a number two guy.

First it's a business, both MU and FVV know that. Second, they'll always be a market for any contract period. If OKC can trade Westbrook's 40 million per year contraxct, you can trade FVV. Remember the cap is bound to increase as they years go by. People once thought Powell was overpaid. Now years later its a bargain contract. But to answer your question.

1. You can definitely move FVV. He's durable, a good shooter, good player, good attitude, etc. A team will take a chance on him. Even if a team trades for FVV just to buy him out later on to save money. They'll always be a market for any player. Remember, some people were upset Derozan got the max. Some people say you could never trade "DeChoke". Well Derozan and his contract ended up getting us KL2.

2. Unless you have a Lebron James it's almost impossible to predict you'll at least make the conference finals, and win a title. It's safer and more profitable to be a 50 win, 2nd round playoff team, than try to go for it all. To go for it all, it really has to be a calculated move where you get ready for the "what if it doesn't work out". Or it can comeback and back fire on you. It looks like things may back fire for the clippers for example. Lowry has 1-2 years left in him. TD is developing nicely but you don't want to rush him. Even if 2021 has a ton of FA, since when did we become a top FA destination ? And like you said there's always a trade route. You need assets and/or picks to make a trade. Fred would be an asset.

3. Teams and GM's don't think like that. Fred and Pascal will never be good enough to lead a team. We all know. What MU and his team are thinking is that we didn't take a chance on this guy, develop him, only for him to go to the Knicks with no compensation.

I agree and disagree at the same time with some of your points.

The DeRozan situation was different. DeRozan was a multi-time all-star and was seen as the main guy here in Toronto (I'd argue Kyle has always been that, but... the rest of the league tends to ignore the Raptors). You also had a very toxic situation with Kawhi and the Spurs, and the fact that they didn't want to move him to any Western Conference teams. I don't think you'll have that option with Van Vleet. He is a good player but he's definitely not the face of the franchise and he's not even a top-10 PG in the league. A lot of people saw DeRozan as a top-10 SG (some said top-5).

You're right that there is no guarantee on success. But I mean, there was no guarantee with the Kawhi trade. But Masai and Bobby took the high-risk move and it paid off - albeit for one season, but it still paid off. I think that the league perspective on Toronto has definitely changed over the years. Winning a championship probably helped that even more. Plus, there have been a lot more rumblings of players wanting to be here/traded here. But you're right, FA is hardly a guarantee. But sometimes you gotta roll the dice.

And I'm not advocating losing Fred (or anyone) for nothing. If you can sign him for a fair deal, you do it. But if someone outbids you or gives him money that you can't match... it doesn't always make sense to match. The cap isn't guaranteed to go up anymore. If anything, it will likely drop next year and then take a couple of years to get some traction. Plus, Pascal getting a higher % raise doesn't help the situation at all. OG is a free agent next season and likely going to get a pretty decent pay increase.

Edit: The fact that Masai puts a lot of emphasis on 2021 in his end of the season press conference also leads me to believe the idea is going all-in there. I mean, Giannis is likely the main target, but there are a bunch of other big FAs that year. So, I think they'll be very careful with their cap situation.

[phanman]

With the career year Freddy has had, it is hard to imagine him settling for anything less than 20m. Remember, Freddy put up numbers in line with starting caliber PG: 17.6pts, 6.6ast, 3.8reb, 1.9stl on 55%TS and 39% from deep on 6.9 attempts

If the Knicks make that offer, I think it sort of forces Masai's hand because even though it is an overpay, it isn't something totally outrageous. It allows us to continue with continuity and with coaching staff and building blocks in place he isn't going to tank his new deal with us. That said, being the saavy business man Masai is, I am sure he can get Freddy take a slight annual discount (20 vs 22) to stay with a playoff contender.

We are in a world of trouble if he leaves. I have no idea how any posters have confidence in TD transitioning to be our backup PG.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

if FVV signed with the Knicks, and he has a subpar year and the Knicks had another abysmal year, would Raptors fans who are on the pro-FVV side be happy he didn't resign?

I'm just curious, is FVV the product of our system (in terms of possibly inflated stats and extremely overplayed in Nurse's offense)

[Psubs]

Why wouldn't Fred take slightly less and stay here?

Watch on YouTube

[Psubs]

With the career year Freddy has had, it is hard to imagine him settling for anything less than 20m. Remember, Freddy put up numbers in line with starting caliber PG: 17.6pts, 6.6ast, 3.8reb, 1.9stl on 55%TS and 39% from deep on 6.9 attempts

If the Knicks make that offer, I think it sort of forces Masai's hand because even though it is an overpay, it isn't something totally outrageous. It allows us to continue with continuity and with coaching staff and building blocks in place he isn't going to tank his new deal with us. That said, being the saavy business man Masai is, I am sure he can get Freddy take a slight annual discount (20 vs 22) to stay with a playoff contender.

We are in a world of trouble if he leaves. I have no idea how any posters have confidence in TD transitioning to be our backup PG.

22-20-22-24 should get it done. If Masai can work his magic, 21-19-21-23. Or give him $30 million / 1 year.

[LastNameEver]

FVV is a very good player but its not a deal breaker if he walks, we’ve probably already gotten our money’s worth out of him, undersized players are great when they’re not costing an arm and a leg.
Id only sign him with the intention of quickly trading him.

[Birth of the Cool]

FVV has been great for the Raptors. He hit so many big shots during the Championship run (esp Finals). Undersized. Not elite passing skills/feel but has improved tremendously as a finisher around the rim and is a very good shooter all the way out to the 3pt line. He's also got grit and plays good defense despite his height limitations. He's done great for himself during his time with the Raptors and deserves to get his payday and I'm sure he'll go with the team that offers him the most years/$$$ and he should.

Maybe FVV leaving will be the impetus that Nurse needs to be forced to play Davis and maybe try and mold him like FVV as hybrid PG/undersized SG. I think with consistent minutes Davis is ready to grow into that FVV role.

[canada_dry]

Give him an extra year than the knicks can at 18- 20 mil. Deal done.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Steelo Green]

Fred is not much better than Schroeder. Shouldn’t make more than 15-17 mil.

He’s a negative asset at 22. Better to walk than keep.

Look at bad contracts handed out because they didn’t want to lose the asset. Would rather have no asset.

I mean look at Eric Gordon making 16 mil.

so you think, Schroeder can take over a NBA Finals closing game? At least with FVV, we know he is not a Clayton Kershaw. He must be re-signed

I think everyone needs to look at Fred’s finals numbers.

He’s essentially a Robert Horry type.

That’s not an insult but when you make a player more than he is, then his production becomes a negative.

He needs to be pegged as that 4-5 best player on a title team.

Kawhi-Pascal-Kyle-Marc/Fred

Is my pecking order.

That’s not an insult, it’s just what you should expect.

Schroeder is a damned good player. He would have done well in Fred’s spot last year too.

We can’t ignore the 2.5 series of useless Fred too lol

[niQ]

[Parataxis]

I know the 'if he doesn't perform to his contract trade him for assets' sounds appealing, but this isn't 2k. There's another team involved.

Players who aren't living up to their contracts aren't easy to trade, especially not for assets.

You must be new !
Go look at mosaics trade history starting with bargnani who should have no value whatsoever

To add to this, baring injuries, I'd be surprised if Fred Van Vleet would ever have no value even on a 20M contract. He's a good shooter, ball handler, defender, has plenty of playoff experience and will be in his 20s throughout the duration of the contract. That sounds like a solid player.

It sure does! And if he plays like that, he'll live up to his contract (and we won't want to trade him, unless it's to get a better piece).

But the question here is what happens if he doesn't. What happens if he falls off a wall, and becomes just a mediocre player - a backup role player?

Those players, on 22m/year contracts, aren't easy to trade AND get assets for them.

Yes, Masai is a miracle worker, but expecting miracles leads to disappointment.

[ash_k]

Fred is not much better than Schroeder. Shouldn’t make more than 15-17 mil.

He’s a negative asset at 22. Better to walk than keep.

Look at bad contracts handed out because they didn’t want to lose the asset. Would rather have no asset.

I mean look at Eric Gordon making 16 mil.

so you think, Schroeder can take over a NBA Finals closing game? At least with FVV, we know he is not a Clayton Kershaw. He must be re-signed

I think everyone needs to look at Fred’s finals numbers.

He’s essentially a Robert Horry type.

That’s not an insult but when you make a player more than he is, then his production becomes a negative.

He needs to be pegged as that 4-5 best player on a title team.

Kawhi-Pascal-Kyle-Marc/Fred

Is my pecking order.

That’s not an insult, it’s just what you should expect.

Schroeder is a damned good player. He would have done well in Fred’s spot last year too.

We can’t ignore the 2.5 series of useless Fred too lol

Certainly not saying that he is a number one option. That one-on-one at 90-87 was not for a player like him, but in this 3-pt shooting NBA, he is a 3rd option on a championship team. Horry was barely able to average 10ppg in the NBA thus it is an insult

Too many players have folded under the pressure, we don't know how Schroeder would have done as we have never seen him under that pressure. I will stick with FVV as the PG of the present and future as the 3rd option, with Pascal as the number 2 option. Finding players that can handle that kind of pressure is difficult enough and they are still young.

[Zeno]

if FVV signed with the Knicks, and he has a subpar year and the Knicks had another abysmal year, would Raptors fans who are on the pro-FVV side be happy he didn't resign?

I'm just curious, is FVV the product of our system (in terms of possibly inflated stats and extremely overplayed in Nurse's offense)

His production is definitely enhanced on the Raps from the system and by being part of the system. Look at Demar’s perceived value now minus the (regular season) winning. But Fred’s value here is to me about his performance here not about how he would be elsewhere in a losing situation.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

if FVV signed with the Knicks, and he has a subpar year and the Knicks had another abysmal year, would Raptors fans who are on the pro-FVV side be happy he didn't resign?

I'm just curious, is FVV the product of our system (in terms of possibly inflated stats and extremely overplayed in Nurse's offense)

His production is definitely enhanced on the Raps from the system and by being part of the system. Look at Demar’s perceived value now minus the (regular season) winning. But Fred’s value here is to me about his performance here not about how he would be elsewhere in a losing situation.

do you think FVV would be a $15M guy if he started somewhere else? I.e. if he was with the Detroit Pistons or the Knicks and their mess, do you think he would be written off as a guy who is a must sign? If he goes to the Knicks, I wish him luck and his career. he'll be on someone's bench by the time he hits 30.

and do you think the Raptors would sign a guy like FVV if he were a free agent if he weren't a Raptor to begin with. I would probably think most of you would say no. undersized and maybe above average athleticism, no hops, chucker. I would just let a role player like FVV move on and not use any feelings in the judgement of it.

if Masai is making an emphasis on cap space for 2021, doesn't resigning FVV to a contract worth over $20M per year, defeat that purpose, esp in a situation with a shrinking cap?

[brownbobcat]

I think everyone needs to look at Fred’s finals numbers.

He’s essentially a Robert Horry type.

That’s not an insult but when you make a player more than he is, then his production becomes a negative.

He needs to be pegged as that 4-5 best player on a title team.

Kawhi-Pascal-Kyle-Marc/Fred

Is my pecking order.

That’s not an insult, it’s just what you should expect.

Schroeder is a damned good player. He would have done well in Fred’s spot last year too.

We can’t ignore the 2.5 series of useless Fred too lol

Keep in mind Schroder was also 2 years away from unrestricted free agency when he signed his extension. All things being equal and notwithstanding China/Covid impact on the cap, you'd expect VanVleet to get more. "Negative" production relative to salary isn't a static measurement when there's no hard cap. He's young enough that I think there would still be a market for him at 20+ million, so unless there's someone better out there Toronto could actually sign instead, you might as well keep him. Same goes for Ibaka somewhat.

[Steelo Green]

so you think, Schroeder can take over a NBA Finals closing game? At least with FVV, we know he is not a Clayton Kershaw. He must be re-signed

I think everyone needs to look at Fred’s finals numbers.

He’s essentially a Robert Horry type.

That’s not an insult but when you make a player more than he is, then his production becomes a negative.

He needs to be pegged as that 4-5 best player on a title team.

Kawhi-Pascal-Kyle-Marc/Fred

Is my pecking order.

That’s not an insult, it’s just what you should expect.

Schroeder is a damned good player. He would have done well in Fred’s spot last year too.

We can’t ignore the 2.5 series of useless Fred too lol

Certainly not saying that he is a number one option. That one-on-one at 90-87 was not for a player like him, but in this 3-pt shooting NBA, he is a 3rd option on a championship team. Horry was barely able to average 10ppg in the NBA thus it is an insult

Too many players have folded under the pressure, we don't know how Schroeder would have done as we have never seen him under that pressure. I will stick with FVV as the PG of the present and future as the 3rd option, with Pascal as the number 2 option. Finding players that can handle that kind of pressure is difficult enough and they are still young.

Problem with Fred is he is great at one thing while being mediocre pretty much at anything (or below average for that matter) with anything outside the 3 point line.

The PG position is the deepest in the league and there’s always another great one around the corner. Investing in an above average one who can’t make plays because he has 10 good games in the PO is a bit much. We saw how bad he looked against Boston.

He would be the 4th best guy personally on a title winning team who is made to make plays off ball to hit big shots but otherwise is limited.

Can’t give that guy 22 mil.

What he did was incredible but we have to look at the entire picture, success in the finals (he averaged 12 PPG) as well as poor play against the Celtics.

[Steelo Green]

I think everyone needs to look at Fred’s finals numbers.

He’s essentially a Robert Horry type.

That’s not an insult but when you make a player more than he is, then his production becomes a negative.

He needs to be pegged as that 4-5 best player on a title team.

Kawhi-Pascal-Kyle-Marc/Fred

Is my pecking order.

That’s not an insult, it’s just what you should expect.

Schroeder is a damned good player. He would have done well in Fred’s spot last year too.

We can’t ignore the 2.5 series of useless Fred too lol

Keep in mind Schroder was also 2 years away from unrestricted free agency when he signed his extension. All things being equal and notwithstanding China/Covid impact on the cap, you'd expect VanVleet to get more. "Negative" production relative to salary isn't a static measurement when there's no hard cap. He's young enough that I think there would still be a market for him at 20+ million, so unless there's someone better out there Toronto could actually sign instead, you might as well keep him. Same goes for Ibaka somewhat.

n

There’s no hard cap but there is a soft one so teams when trying to save money to sign other guys will likely not try to trade for a Fred who isn’t even a top 15 PG.

Hell is he top 20?

22 mil for a not star player is too much when other players of his caliber are making something in the 15-17 mil range.

[brownbobcat]

There’s no hard cap but there is a soft one so teams when trying to save money to sign other guys will likely not try to trade for a Fred who isn’t even a top 15 PG.

Hell is he top 20?

22 mil for a not star player is too much when other players of his caliber are making something in the 15-17 mil range.

Brogdon gets 20+, Rozier is 19ish and so is Dragic, Teague. Some of the guys getting a few mil less like Rubio or Bledsoe are also closer to 30 and/or signed their max contract when the cap was lower like Reggie Jackson.

I do think 22M+ would be an overpay, but you could still move him for an asset.

[nikster]

I think everyone needs to look at Fred’s finals numbers.

He’s essentially a Robert Horry type.

That’s not an insult but when you make a player more than he is, then his production becomes a negative.

He needs to be pegged as that 4-5 best player on a title team.

Kawhi-Pascal-Kyle-Marc/Fred

Is my pecking order.

That’s not an insult, it’s just what you should expect.

Schroeder is a damned good player. He would have done well in Fred’s spot last year too.

We can’t ignore the 2.5 series of useless Fred too lol

Keep in mind Schroder was also 2 years away from unrestricted free agency when he signed his extension. All things being equal and notwithstanding China/Covid impact on the cap, you'd expect VanVleet to get more. "Negative" production relative to salary isn't a static measurement when there's no hard cap. He's young enough that I think there would still be a market for him at 20+ million, so unless there's someone better out there Toronto could actually sign instead, you might as well keep him. Same goes for Ibaka somewhat.

n

There’s no hard cap but there is a soft one so teams when trying to save money to sign other guys will likely not try to trade for a Fred who isn’t even a top 15 PG.

Hell is he top 20?

22 mil for a not star player is too much when other players of his caliber are making something in the 15-17 mil range.

Can we afford to lose him tho? Its really only a hit if we can do something better with that cap space. Raps in 18' had like 80 million tied up to Derozan, Lowry and Ibaka. They were able to still make get rid of one of those contracts, and make another trade for a rotation player. Even their championship roster had like $77 million just for Lowry Ibaka and Gasol