Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[MagicBagley18]

Besides what everyone else said remember the KD warriors and how good they were and how the nba season seemed irrelevant because you knew no one was going to beat them 4x in a series........

That’s Jordan his entire prime. you knew he was gonna win one way or the other. 7 game series or not he was Gina find a way, knicks, Jazz, Pacers, didn’t matter.

[Pelly24]

No.

MJ without Pippen:
5 seasons
5 losing seasons
1-9 playoff record


MJ never faced an athletic perimeter defender his size in his prime. He was dominating smaller players like Starks, Hornacek, Byron Scott, Hersey Hawkins, Dan Majerle. LeBron was facing the greatest perimeter defensive team in the finals on a yearly basis. Draymond, KD, Iggy, and Klay is a stacked defensive lineup. MJ never faced a defender as tough as one of those, with the exception of Payton who shut him down, let alone 4 on the same team. Not to mention beasts like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion too.

I think you actually needed people the size of Starks to guard MJ. He was literally to fast and explosive to be guarded by someone like Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy and PG. Goodluck stopping a 6'5" Westbrook with agility and body control like prime DWade lol.

[r0drig0lac]

funny

[benson13]

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

You see an argument in your favor. I see a stat that says the 2012 Thunder were better than the 96 Sonics. I'd like to tell you that you're using a flawed stat, but I wouldn't want to ruin your happiness.

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"

Yeah, that little white guy was a scrub...




(btw, don't see your friend Lebron in those stats...)

Somehow he managed to wear those shorts for 19 years without anyone ever making him visiting a tanning booth or waxing salon.

[LAKESHOW]

WTH, I'm divin in. Record 16 Time All NBA team. And should he win with his 3rd different team. He is solidly up there

[Pelly24]

Besides what everyone else said remember the KD warriors and how good they were and how the nba season seemed irrelevant because you knew no one was going to beat them 4x in a series........

That’s Jordan his entire prime. you knew he was gonna win one way or the other. 7 game series or not he was Gina find a way, knicks, Jazz, Pacers, didn’t matter.

This seems true but 'm too young to remember lol.

The closest thing I have is LeBron's run of finals appearances. Every year it just seemed inevitable that he'd get that far. That's also a function of the East rarely having top notch talent. But if all things are equal, LeBron feels the same way.

[JoeyLightYears]

You see an argument in your favor. I see a stat that says the 2012 Thunder were better than the 96 Sonics. I'd like to tell you that you're using a flawed stat, but I wouldn't want to ruin your happiness.

What is your argument, then? The "eye test"? Because that is the worst method of all.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Spoiler:

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Spoiler:

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

That's kind of unfair. SRS takes into account point differential and strength of schedule.

Here are the years they won, along with their opponents SRS, sorted by highest to lowest average SRS. Jordans teams are red.


1993 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
1992 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
1994 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)

**2020 (2.59 or 5.83)/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865-2.675 average)**

The 2017 Warriors really bring up the Cavs average and the 1997 Miami heat drag down the Bulls average.

The numbers really confirm what everyone really knows: The East was weak post Jordan era, and the West kind of sucked in 2020.

Jordan beat 13 teams with an SRS of 5 or higher. LeBron beat 3. If the Lakers beat Boston it will be his 4th in a Championship year.

Again, just based on conference opponents average SRS:

1993 4.28
1996 3.83
1992 3.53
1994 3.03
2016 2.67
2012 2.41
1997 1.69
**2020 1.62**
1998 0.75
2013 0.51

Jordan had better numbers, was a clearer #1 option, and he won more against better competition.

There is no argument for LeBron over Jordan.

[benson13]

You see an argument in your favor. I see a stat that says the 2012 Thunder were better than the 96 Sonics. I'd like to tell you that you're using a flawed stat, but I wouldn't want to ruin your happiness.

What is your argument, then? The "eye test"? Because that is the worst method of all.

Regular season record and point differential. No black box stats here friend, and certainly none using 20 game samples.

[r3demption]

It is like Lebron fans have a fetish for people to trash their player. Lebron is great but when you compare him to the greatest he falls short. If you are really his fan just stop making these dumb threads please.

[JoeyLightYears]

You see an argument in your favor. I see a stat that says the 2012 Thunder were better than the 96 Sonics. I'd like to tell you that you're using a flawed stat, but I wouldn't want to ruin your happiness.

What is your argument, then? The "eye test"? Because that is the worst method of all.

Regular season record and point differential. No black box stats here friend.

Well those aren't exactly objective stats either since they depend a great deal on the conference. In the 1996, the East was a lot better than the West, and vice-versa in 2012. Also, in neither case is the discrepancy in either record or point differential that great, certainly not laughable. The 2012 Thunder were a very good team.

[Winsome Gerbil]

It would be nice to do away with the old "kids these days" saying, but unfortunately they...are kind of dumb.

And it's ok, I was dumb too at that age. A curious combination of ignorance and talking out of my behind that is typical of the age.

As for this tired old topic, its a better question if there is any reasonable argument other than longevity that works n Lebron's favor. Playing in a defenseless era now sure to give him several more years of faux dominance, playing in a player centric era that has let him design his own perfect teams for a solid decade, and play in a weak Conference or destroyed league every single year of that span...and still, he never achieved that same level of invincibility. Most intimidating player since Jordan, unless you count a few years of Shaq perhaps. But one you could always scheme to defeat, and one whom people constantly throw up challengers to his reign as best player. In the last decade of Jordan's career there was not a player who was even given that honor for a moment -- Hakeem only had it because Jordan was out for a couple of years. And that was with half a dozen Top 20 all timers trying to break through.

[benson13]

What is your argument, then? The "eye test"? Because that is the worst method of all.

Regular season record and point differential. No black box stats here friend.

Well those aren't exactly objective stats either since they depend a great deal on the conference. In the 1996, the East was a lot better than the West, and vice-versa in 2012. Also, in neither case is the discrepancy in either record or point differential that great, certainly not laughable. The 2012 Thunder were a very good team.

96 Sonics Point Differentials

Western Conference-7.6
Eastern Conference-8.1

They sure fell apart against those EC teams. I'm sure they'd have lost to the Knicks in the Finals.

I'll give you another try, but eventually I'll have to go back to being productive today.

[JoeyLightYears]

Regular season record and point differential. No black box stats here friend.

Well those aren't exactly objective stats either since they depend a great deal on the conference. In the 1996, the East was a lot better than the West, and vice-versa in 2012. Also, in neither case is the discrepancy in either record or point differential that great, certainly not laughable. The 2012 Thunder were a very good team.

96 Sonics Point Differentials

Western Conference-7.6
Eastern Conference-8.1

They sure fell apart against those EC teams. I'm sure they'd have lost to the Knicks in the Finals.

I'll give you another try, but eventually I'll have to go back to being productive today.

Nevertheless, if the graphic posted by the other person above is correct, they weren't exactly tearing it up in the Western playoffs, unlike OKC that year. Not sure what you are trying to argue exactly.

[Fencer reregistered]

Yes, for me Jordan was unquestionably better at basketball than LeBron. Among other things, he didn't have any huge weaknesses to his game either offensively or defensively, while that could not be said for LeBron (free throwing throughout the career, long-range shooting for a big part of his career). And there's so much more one could say about "MJ > LBJ", but it's all been said before.

And for me, LeBron isn't even #2, players such as KAJ, Magic, Duncan, Bird and Russell are ahead of him in the GOAT rankings, while besides Wilt LeBron has the GOAT athleticism in NBA history.

How did you manage to decide that long-range shooting is an advantage for Jordan over Lebron?

[benson13]

Well those aren't exactly objective stats either since they depend a great deal on the conference. In the 1996, the East was a lot better than the West, and vice-versa in 2012. Also, in neither case is the discrepancy in either record or point differential that great, certainly not laughable. The 2012 Thunder were a very good team.

96 Sonics Point Differentials

Western Conference-7.6
Eastern Conference-8.1

They sure fell apart against those EC teams. I'm sure they'd have lost to the Knicks in the Finals.

I'll give you another try, but eventually I'll have to go back to being productive today.

Nevertheless, if the graphic posted by the other person above is correct, they weren't exactly tearing it up in the Western playoffs, unlike OKC that year. Not sure what you are trying to argue exactly.

I'm arguing the Sonics were better by dismissing your counter arguments. I thought that was clear.

[CBS7]

Its also weird that Jordan's record sans Pippen is constantly brought up like Pippen carried Jordan to success, as if Pippen wasn't a 7 point per game bench player in his rookie year, which coincidentally was the first year Jordan made it past the first round.

Jordan's three year's pre Pippen were 1) Rookie Jordan 2) Injured Jordan and 3) his next two best players were Oakley and Paxson. Not only not a single all star, but not a single other player who could put up a PER higher than 14, other than Threatt who wasn't on the roster until new years eve.

Players don't have success with garbage rosters. Those teams shouldn't even have been playoff teams, but the league decided it was ok for 8 teams to make the playoffs in a conference that was 11 deep.

[kobe808lak]

Do people think Jordan beats the GSW Durant team? Or that Lebron wouldn't of dominated with Scottie by his side vs really no one who could match his speed/size in the 90s?

The wing defenders Lebron has played against are better than just about anything Jordan faced... Kawhi\Draymond\Iguodala\Durant vs Byron Russel or 6ft Gary Payton?

That said I still probably pick Jordan > Lebron at the end of the day... but it's close. Jordan has the better resume in terms of Finals wins but the longevity and peak of Lebron is insane.

[nedleeds]

That he wasn't a dick riding coward who left when the Celtics took his nutsack? That he beat his arch nemesis without having to go run and join Isiah or Bird.

[NyKnicks1714]

Do people think Jordan beats the GSW Durant team? Or that Lebron wouldn't of dominated with Scottie by his side vs really no one who could match his speed/size in the 90s?

The wing defenders Lebron has played against are better than just about anything Jordan faced... Kawhi\Draymond\Iguodala\Durant vs Byron Russel or 6ft Gary Payton?

That said I still probably pick Jordan > Lebron at the end of the day... but it's close. Jordan has the better resume in terms of Finals wins but the longevity and peak of Lebron is insane.

This is about as reasonable a post as you'll find in this debate.