Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[ILOVEIT]

Jordan wasn't a better basketball player SKILLs wise.

But he is ten times the clutch player Lebron is.

[Heej]

Spoiler:

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Spoiler:

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

That's kind of unfair. SRS takes into account point differential and SRS.

Here are the years they won, along with their opponents SRS, sorted by highest to lowest average SRS. Jordans teams are red.


1993 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
2012 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
1992 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
1994 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.4425 average)
2016 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.2475 average)
2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.04 average)

The 2017 Warriors really bring up the Cavs average and the 1997 Miami heat drag down the Bulls average.

The numbers really confirm what everyone really knows: The East was weak post Jordan era.

Jordan beat 13 teams with an SRS of 5 or higher. LeBron beat 3.

Man funny how you don't actually include the 2017 or 2018 Warriors. And really it's not that impressive to beat a bunch of 5 SRS teams as much as it is to beat 1 team that's at 8+. It gets exponentially harder to win a series vs teams the higher up they go in quality. What you're telling me is that MJ basically had a slightly more difficult walk through the Eastern conference and then played some average ass Finals competition. It's way harder to beat one juggernaut than it is to beat a bunch of mid tier opponents lol. The margin for error is way too small with the former

[JoeyLightYears]

Jordan wasn't a better basketball player SKILLs wise.

But he is ten times the clutch player Lebron is.

This is objectively false by any metric for "clutch" that has been recorded. You have to go back almost a decade to find a single bad series by LeBron, crunchtime or otherwise.

[dhsilv2]

> NBA defenders are at their toughest/best right now
> Teams are scoring at a higher rate and efficiency than anytime in the past ~50 years

Pick one.

But it's both...

Nba players may be better but the rule changes have made it damn near impossible to guard anyone effectively today. Literally every player carries on 75% of their dribbles, 12 years ago 3 steps was a clear travel today 4 steps aren't a travel, you cannot touch anybody outside of the paint, it is a joke and a huge reason stats are going way up.

The 3 steps is old as time. As for the rules...it is harder to stop a player. That doesn't mean defenses are better. Just because rules increase scoring doesn't mean the defensive counters aren't better.

[dhsilv2]

Yes - Michael Jordan won 6 champions and would have won 8 straight he hadn't quit the NBA to go play baseball

LeBron is a great player though, but is not quite there on the same level as MJ

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

Personally - I think Michael Jordan was that good - If any one could have done it - He would have been the one - but you would most likely win that bet

Teams win, not players.

[-MetA4-]

I don't think Jordan was the better offensive player. He was the better scorer, but offence is also distributing, creating, controlling the pace, etc.. All of which I consider LeBron to be better at.

I can't wait for the **** of quotes I'm about to receive.

Offense is about putting the ball through the basket.

Arguing that a guy isn't as good offensively because he's too dominant a scorer and isn't "facilitating" enough is so weak. If he can put the ball through the basket himself more efficiently than the rest of the team, then why does he need to facilitate? Here's the fact of the matter: the Bulls won more with MJ just focusing on scoring than LeBron has won while being an "all around offensive player". You would have had an argument had MJ's style of offense been less effective in terms of wins/losses...but it wasn't. And the point of the matter is that his scoring-driven style of offense wasn't about hogging the ball or taking away from his teammates, so there was literally no negative to Jordan's offense.

"Versatility" has to be the most overrated trait. There comes a point wherein the guy who can just take the ball and put it in the basket himself is more valuable than the guy who tries to juggle scoring, distributing, controlling the pace, etc, etc. Especially in the playoffs/finals wherein each game is expected to go down to the wire. Given that both teams are likely to be similarly matched and the game goes down to the wire...what becomes more valuable? Jordan being able to assert his dominance as a scorer in the final ~4 minutes of the game, or LeBron's "superior passing"? Every coach in the league would take Jordan's superior scoring.

[scrabbarista]

Yes, for me Jordan was unquestionably better at basketball than LeBron. Among other things, he didn't have any huge weaknesses to his game either offensively or defensively, while that could not be said for LeBron (free throwing throughout the career, long-range shooting for a big part of his career). And there's so much more one could say about "MJ > LBJ", but it's all been said before.

And for me, LeBron isn't even #2, players such as KAJ, Magic, Duncan, Bird and Russell are ahead of him in the GOAT rankings, while besides Wilt LeBron has the GOAT athleticism in NBA history.

How did you manage to decide that long-range shooting is an advantage for Jordan over Lebron?

Here is a good place to start:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1930800

You could also check out the Michael Jordan: The Legend of the Greatest video referenced in the thread. I was watching some MJ highlights recently, and he shot a shot from beyond half court, before the buzzer of a game in which the Bulls were up by close to ten points. To be clear, that was the buzzer at the end of the game. That's how much guys cared about protecting their 3P% in his day. When you're already only shooting one or two 3's a game, those kinds of shots can have a huge influence on your percentages. Even without adjusting for the facts that the three point line wasn't even in the NBA until he was like 16 years old and nobody really shot it much until he was getting close to his second retirement, Jordan was a much better three-point shooter than his numbers indicate.

[The4thHorseman]

> NBA defenders are at their toughest/best right now
> Teams are scoring at a higher rate and efficiency than anytime in the past ~50 years

Pick one. Even if Jordan never develops a real 3 to keep up with today's game, he's still tearing up today's league. If he does, he puts up a few 40+ per game seasons.

I have LeBron in my top 3, and his longevity is otherworldly, but you don't need to put down MJ to prop LeBron up. You call Jordan's teams stacked, when LeBron never won anything without 2+ future HOFers on his team either. MJ never had the spacing LeBron did, and LeBron never had to go against the class of rim protectors that Jordan did. LeBron also has had by far more offensive help than Jordan ever did. Jordan also never choked away a Finals like LeBron did.

Bosh and Love were already considered HOF'ers before playing with LeBron??

Bosh scoring zero points in game 7 of the 2013 Finals and Love avg. 8-8 on 36% shooting in the 2016 Finals is looked at as HOF type play?

What great offensive teams / players did MJ and the Bulls face? People say that John Starks and Reggie Miller were his 2 biggest nemesis'. That's pretty bad.

[Karate Diop]

Nope. Dude couldn't get out the first round without Pipp pulling him up by the bootstraps.

[Harry Garris]

Are you slandering the name of John Stockton in the OP? Stockton was a heck of a player and would still be dominant today. If you're going to pick two white guys from Jordan's era to prove it was worse maybe don't start with John Stockton.

John Stockton was never "dominant" even in his own era. He played in a system that facilitated easy assists and he played for a really long time and never got hurt.

[TheGOATRises007]

OP had to slander Stockton in order to prop up Lebron.

Unreal.

[Camping Fan]

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

Personally - I think Michael Jordan was that good - If any one could have done it - He would have been the one - but you would most likely win that bet

Teams win, not players.

This is true - but Michael Jordan was still the GOAT

[-MetA4-]

John Stockton was never "dominant" even in his own era. He played in a system that facilitated easy assists and he played for a really long time and never got hurt.

He made some of the most difficult passes look fundamentally flawless. The "system" may have propped up his assist totals, but his pure ability to distribute was elite regardless of what system he would have played in. There is a difference between an average distributor who's assists are propped up due to the offensive system, and an elite distributor who just so happens to also play in a beneficial offensive system.

[dhsilv2]

Personally - I think Michael Jordan was that good - If any one could have done it - He would have been the one - but you would most likely win that bet

Teams win, not players.

This is true - but Michael Jordan was still the GOAT

I don't really disagree, but lebron has a hell of a good case as does Kareem and Bill.

[Camping Fan]

Yes - Michael Jordan won 6 champions and would have won 8 straight he hadn't quit the NBA to go play baseball

LeBron is a great player though, but is not quite there on the same level as MJ

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

In fact, I would argue that had he not retired, even if they continue to win in 1994 and 1995, that they would have been more content to stop sooner. 5 straight titles would be incredible and history in itself and something to part ways on. They had to pull teeth to stay together in 1998. The retirement actually worked out very well for their final ring count because it incentivized 6 (repeat 3peat was the rhetoric). Without that incentive for 6, they likely stop and settle before 6.

I just don't see any circumstance where I would consider Lebron better then Michael - and I was a Bulls hater - Hated Phil Jackson - but I had to respect the game that Michael brought - James also brings a great game - but Michael was still a little higher to me

[NZB2323]

Jordan is undefeated with homecourt advantage.

Lebron has lost 3 series with homecourt advantage.

Jordan demanded the most our his teammates in games and in practice.

Lebron let Dwayne Wade get fat when he joined him in Cleveland.

Every championship team Lebron has been on has been stacked. Jordan wasn't on a stacked team in 98, when Pippen was injured, Rodman was an aging alcohlic, and Jordan had to do pretty much everything in game 6. Jordan had 45 points, Kukoc had 15, and no other Bull had double digit points. In the last 2 minutes of the game Jordan scored, stole the ball, and then scored again. No other Chicago Bull touched the ball.

[boren]

Not choking and always performing at a high level is a very strong argument in favor of MJ. Jordan's deepest Finals "valley" is his 22 pt game in a win against the Sonics. Now compare that to Lebron's performance in 2011. You can't have such a stain on your record and claim to be the GOAT, no matter what happens later. And what happened later is mostly more Finals losses.

Not deferring when you clearly have a great shot and not flopping are two more arguments. Others have already raised many stat-based arguments that I mostly agree with and don't need to repeat.

With that said, over the years I learned to ignore these weaknesses and the hype and simply enjoy watching Lebron for what he is - a brilliant basketball player, just one with too many indelible "valleys" to be considered a real candidate for GOAT.

[TheGOATRises007]

Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity


"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"


I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Seriously. Some of you come up with the dumbest arguments.

[oaktownwarriors87]

It is like Lebron fans have a fetish for people to trash their player. Lebron is great but when you compare him to the greatest he falls short. If you are really his fan just stop making these dumb threads please.

LeBron fans: LeBron is the GOAT and you can't prove otherwise!

Everyone else: Here's the proof. It's pretty clear he isn't.

LeBron fans: Stop hating LeBron!

[oaktownwarriors87]

Man funny how you don't actually include the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

Yeah, it's almost like I only showed teams they beat. Anyone can lose to a good team.

Should I have shown the Celtics and Pistons teams that Jordan lost too?

No one cares who you lose to, it's about who you beat.

Anyways, here we go:

Teams Jordan lost to

1985 Bucks 6.69
1986 Celtics 9.06
1987 Celtics 6.57
1988 Pistons 5.46
1989 Piston 6.24
1990 Pistons 5.41
1995 Magic 6.44

Teams LeBron lost to

2006 Pistons 6.24
2007 Spurs 8.35
2008 Celtics 9.30
2009 Magic 6.48
2010 Celtics 3.37
2011 Mavericks 4.41
2014 Spurs 8.00
2015 Warriors 10.01
2017 Warriors 11.35
2018 Warriors 5.79


Interesting note: Jordan never lost to a team with an SRS below 5