Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[dhsilv2]

Nba players may be better but the rule changes have made it damn near impossible to guard anyone effectively today. Literally every player carries on 75% of their dribbles, 12 years ago 3 steps was a clear travel today 4 steps aren't a travel, you cannot touch anybody outside of the paint, it is a joke and a huge reason stats are going way up.

The 3 steps is old as time. As for the rules...it is harder to stop a player. That doesn't mean defenses are better. Just because rules increase scoring doesn't mean the defensive counters aren't better.

3 steps are not old as time, it being legal is 11 years old.

Please explain how defense is better today than it was in the 90s, because those of us who watched the 90s know it was, he'll those of us that watched the 80s know that LeBron has not even surpassed Bird.

3 steps was standard in the 90's, the first step tended to be a bit less overt as it is today, but they were doing those all the time. Even the late 80's had it.

Defense are today far more aware of zones of high value and low value, they're better at understanding space, they know where players shoot better than before. Simply everything we see today is night and day better than the 90's. The 90's allowed defenders to get more physical, that isn't better. That's simply a difference in what refs allow. it brings down scoring through officiating, not better actual defense.

[The Explorer]

Yes.

Jordan is better at several things.

Scoring - Jordan
Shooting - Jordan
Defense - Jordan
Offensive post - Jordan
Handles - Jordan
Footwork - Jordan
Paint Shooting - Jordan
Drawing fouls - Jordan
FT shooting - Jordan
Finishing at the rim - Jordan
Steals - Jordan
Offensive consistency - Jordan
Defensive consistency - Jordan
Off the ball play - Jordan
Midrange - Jordan
Vertical - Jordan
Hangtime - Jordan
Durability - Jordan
Coachability - Jordan

Shot blocking - James
Defensive Rebounding - James
Passing - James



Overall Jordan is much better at basketball than James. And the team results and career prove this.

[Duke4life831]

Are you slandering the name of John Stockton in the OP? Stockton was a heck of a player and would still be dominant today. If you're going to pick two white guys from Jordan's era to prove it was worse maybe don't start with John Stockton.

John Stockton was never "dominant" even in his own era. He played in a system that facilitated easy assists and he played for a really long time and never got hurt.

What? He made an all NBA team in 10 consecutive seasons, during that span he also made 5 All defense teams. He played in a system that made getting assists easy because Stockton mastered that system and he made it look easy. Also if he was just a system guy, how did he end up being the all time steal leader by a huge margin? From 87-97 he averaged 2.5 steals per game. To put that into perspective, you have to go back to 2009 to find a season where someone averaged more than 2.5 steals in a game. Stockton is an all time great for a reason.

[Jaqua92]

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

How does net effeciency mean that team would win a series? To call that ABC logic would be a compliment. Jesus.

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[VanWest82]

Let's get real for a second. Lebron has benefitted so tremendously in ways that Mike didn't/couldn't because of advances in tech, medicine, overall advancement of the game, etc., that it'd be a massive upset if he didn't eclipse MJ from a pure basketball POV. The fact that this is even a discussion with all the built in advantages the current generation has over 80s/90s players is a testament to Jordan's greatness.

Also, these one-sided bait threads are exhausting. Especially the ones on topics that have been litigated and re-litigated 100x over.

[Jaqua92]

Spoiler:

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Spoiler:

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

That's kind of unfair. SRS takes into account point differential and strength of schedule.

Here are the years they won, along with their opponents SRS, sorted by highest to lowest average SRS. Jordans teams are red.


1993 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
1992 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
1994 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)

**2020 (2.59 or 5.83)/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865-2.675 average)**

The 2017 Warriors really bring up the Cavs average and the 1997 Miami heat drag down the Bulls average.

The numbers really confirm what everyone really knows: The East was weak post Jordan era, and the West kind of sucked in 2020.

Jordan beat 13 teams with an SRS of 5 or higher. LeBron beat 3. If the Lakers beat Boston it will be his 4th in a Championship year.

Again, just based on conference opponents average SRS:

1993 4.28
1996 3.83
1992 3.53
1994 3.03
2016 2.67
2012 2.41
1997 1.69
**2020 1.62**
1998 0.75
2013 0.51

Jordan had better numbers, was a clearer #1 option, and he won more against better competition.

There is no argument for LeBron over Jordan.

This is cute. You aren't just cherry picking numbers like people here do. You demonstrate a knowledge of statistics measuring CONTEXT..not objective ranking/prediction.

You provided an analysis.

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[Quattro]

Lebron totally dominates MJ in tampering to get stars on his team to give him the help he needs to go 3-6 in the nba finals. It’s really no contest.

It's spectacular that in a thread asking whether Jordan was a better basketball player how few arguments are even attempted that he was a better basketball player. A great deal of them are just this argle-bargle again.

Though the OP is slanted to the point of silliness, it's a reasonable question. Feel free to put the taking points away and debate.

If someone wants a reasonable discussion, perhaps they should start the thread with a reasonable question rather than the utter nonsense he posted.

[vxmike]

MJ never faced an athletic perimeter defender his size in his prime. He was dominating smaller players like Starks, Hornacek, Byron Scott, Hersey Hawkins, Dan Majerle. LeBron was facing the greatest perimeter defensive team in the finals on a yearly basis. Draymond, KD, Iggy, and Klay is a stacked defensive lineup. MJ never faced a defender as tough as one of those, with the exception of Payton who shut him down, let alone 4 on the same team. Not to mention beasts like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion too.

That’s a silly argument when Lebron has never faced anyone with his size or strength either.

[Camping Fan]

I just don't see any circumstance where I would consider Lebron better then Michael - and I was a Bulls hater - Hated Phil Jackson - but I had to respect the game that Michael brought - James also brings a great game - but Michael was still a little higher to me

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

I have been playing basketball for 38 years, guess I am the GOAT since the rest doesn't matter.

If you have been playing for 38 years and can still play good - then you must have a great sex life - lol

[Heej]

Jordan was the 70 win team. Get that through your head.

I understand that, what you need to get through your head is that it's an indictment on the rest of the league that no one else is even close. Trash organizations Fielding trash teams coached by inferior coaches. Every single Jordan finals opponent would get smoked in the West today and probably wouldn't even come out of the East of the last decade.

Again, go back to my first post. It already proved this idiotic take wrong.



Here you go:


1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)

**2020 (2.59 or 5.83)/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865-2.675 average)**

The 2017 Warriors really bring up the Cavs average and the 1997 Miami heat drag down the Bulls average.

The numbers really confirm what everyone really knows: The East was weak post Jordan era, and the West kind of sucked in 2020.

Jordan beat 13 teams with an SRS of 5 or higher. LeBron beat 3. If the Lakers beat Boston it will be his 4th in a Championship year.

Again, just based on conference opponents average SRS:

1992 4.28
1996 3.83
1991 3.53
1993 3.03
2016 2.67
2012 2.41
1997 1.69
**2020 1.62**
1998 0.75
2013 0.51

As I said before, all it proves is that Jordan faced teams of middling caliber. None of those teams are beating the Warriors in the West or any LeBron team in the East. Not a single one of Jordan's opponents during any of his runs were even above 8 SRS. And that's not even accounting for the fact that those aren't championship or Finals losing teams (except 98 Jazz) that play possum during the regular season and as such are demonstrably underrated by that statistic.

So as I've said multiple times, there's no reason to believe the opponents MJ faced were anything special compared to the competition LeBron faced in the Finals this decade. Beating up a bunch of mid-tier 5 SRS teams looks cool and all, but not one of those teams he beats measures up to beating the 2016 Warriors plain and simple.

[trueballer7]

Yes.

Jordan is better at several things.

Scoring - Jordan
Shooting - Jordan
Defense - Jordan
Offensive post - Jordan
Handles - Jordan
Footwork - Jordan
Drawing fouls - Jordan
FT shooting - Jordan
Finishing at the rim - Jordan
Steals - Jordan
Offensive consistency - Jordan


Lebron might be better at Rebounding, shot blocking, and passing. Overall Jordan is much better at basketball than James. And the team results and career prove this.

Off the ball play also, stamina, resilience. I read somewhere that during the 1997-1998 season, Jordan had the ball in his hands for 3 minutes and 50 seconds on average per game. You could pretty much pick the best system to maximize your random 4 starters' performance and just ask Mike to add what was missing to get them to the top. No need for special systems, specific personnel, spacing. Thats why those Bulls were so consistent. The role players, even Pippen, were only asked to play to their strengths which they could do game in game out. If I'm being honest, Larry Legend was pretty damn close to that level of perfection too.

[Camping Fan]

In fact, I would argue that had he not retired, even if they continue to win in 1994 and 1995, that they would have been more content to stop sooner. 5 straight titles would be incredible and history in itself and something to part ways on. They had to pull teeth to stay together in 1998. The retirement actually worked out very well for their final ring count because it incentivized 6 (repeat 3peat was the rhetoric). Without that incentive for 6, they likely stop and settle before 6.

I just don't see any circumstance where I would consider Lebron better then Michael - and I was a Bulls hater - Hated Phil Jackson - but I had to respect the game that Michael brought - James also brings a great game - but Michael was still a little higher to me

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

[Heej]

Spoiler:

Indubitably my dude. Great post totally unbiased and pure facts. You love to see it

That's kind of unfair. SRS takes into account point differential and strength of schedule.

Here are the years they won, along with their opponents SRS, sorted by highest to lowest average SRS. Jordans teams are red.


1993 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
1992 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
1994 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)

**2020 (2.59 or 5.83)/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865-2.675 average)**

The 2017 Warriors really bring up the Cavs average and the 1997 Miami heat drag down the Bulls average.

The numbers really confirm what everyone really knows: The East was weak post Jordan era, and the West kind of sucked in 2020.

Jordan beat 13 teams with an SRS of 5 or higher. LeBron beat 3. If the Lakers beat Boston it will be his 4th in a Championship year.

Again, just based on conference opponents average SRS:

1993 4.28
1996 3.83
1992 3.53
1994 3.03
2016 2.67
2012 2.41
1997 1.69
**2020 1.62**
1998 0.75
2013 0.51

Jordan had better numbers, was a clearer #1 option, and he won more against better competition.

There is no argument for LeBron over Jordan.

This is cute. You aren't just cherry picking numbers like people here do. You demonstrate a knowledge of statistics measuring CONTEXT..not objective ranking/prediction.

You provided an analysis.

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Translation: this guys arbitrarily statistic listed without context agrees more with my preconceived notions than that other guys so I agree with this post.

[Lalouie]

i'd rather have mj's will and the ball in his hands in the closing minutes than lebron. i think that's very reasonable

[dhsilv2]

I just don't see any circumstance where I would consider Lebron better then Michael - and I was a Bulls hater - Hated Phil Jackson - but I had to respect the game that Michael brought - James also brings a great game - but Michael was still a little higher to me

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

[Camping Fan]

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

The titles is what everything is about and demonstrates the player was able to overcome the many many diversities and issues to get that. Granted you have some players like Robert Horry was really along for some free rides - but when you are talking about elite players, those titles says a lot even though it's not everything. I remember Jordan play, I have seen Kobe play his entire career and LeBron. There are things that Kobe could do that Michael Jordan could do and there are things that LeBron does that Kobe did not. No one will ever be the pure shooter and closer Kobe was, but LeBron has a balanced game and is the best team player I have seen and is ore who empowers others to play with him. I simply have to go with Michael Jordan if for no other reason was a pioneer in the game right next to Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabaar who definitely deserve to be in the same conversation

[loserX]

Lebron totally dominates MJ in tampering to get stars on his team to give him the help he needs to go 3-6 in the nba finals. It’s really no contest.

It's spectacular that in a thread asking whether Jordan was a better basketball player how few arguments are even attempted that he was a better basketball player. A great deal of them are just this argle-bargle again.

Though the OP is slanted to the point of silliness, it's a reasonable question. Feel free to put the taking points away and debate.

If someone wants a reasonable discussion, perhaps they should start the thread with a reasonable question rather than the utter nonsense he posted.

Or, we could all take responsibility for our own posts instead of responding "but Mom, he started it." I think the site would be much better for it.

[carrrnuttt]

Here's an argument for Jordan's basketball prowess:

Would you rather take...

...Someone with LeBron's physical stats with Jordan's skills, or...

...LeBron?

The fact that Jordan has many multiple arguments against a guy that was even more blessed than him physically, especially at the rim, where Jordan had HOF centers practically on every other team to contend against, tells you something about what that dude had/was all about.

Speaking of which, LeBron dodging dunk contests like a female dog? LMAO

[twyzted]

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

This is how the greatest in sports are measured by how much they won, Messi and CR7 they won a bunch, pele also, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Brady also won a bunch.
Its like that in all sports the guys who win the most=greatest.
That is what fans want TITLES not 2nd places.
But you want change how people view the greatest because it fits your narative to prop Lebron up

[Camping Fan]

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

This is how the greatest in sports are measured by how much they won, Messi and CR7 they won a bunch, pele also, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Brady also won a bunch.
Its like that in all sports the guys who win the most=greatest.
That is what fans want TITLES not 2nd places.
But you want change how people view the greatest because it fits your narative to prop Lebron up

that's the cold truth - LeBron is a great player and like it or not - Kobe Bryant himself said "What LeBron needs to do is find a way to win more championships" That's why you never here much about second rated players like Karl Malone, Stockton and Nash.