Turner to the Celtics - How?

[djFan71]

Playing out the final year of his contract with a followup much smaller contract versus opting out and signing for a still hefty deal for a #3 type of player.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085......$16,000,000.....$16,000,000....$16,000,000.....$82,187,085

Gordon Hayward....$20,000,000......$20,000,000.....$20,000,000....$20,000,000.....$80,000,000

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

I have very modest expectations for the salary cap with 2020-21 roughly unchanged and 2021-22 having slight growth, I find it difficult to project a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward because that is a lot of salary for a player that is likely to be classified as a #3 or #4 type of player.

The numbers can be shifted as necessary, but here is a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward...$21,000,000......$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000......$90,000,000



Will Boston sign him to a 3/$69 million deal in summer 2021 if he plays out his exisitng contract?

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085.....$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000....$103,187,085

Why do you consider $4/90M a lot for a 3rd option? Teams can be structured with 3 maxes. That's a bargain 3rd isn't it?

[Resistance]

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

I have very modest expectations for the salary cap with 2020-21 roughly unchanged and 2021-22 having slight growth, I find it difficult to project a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward because that is a lot of salary for a player that is likely to be classified as a #3 or #4 type of player.

The numbers can be shifted as necessary, but here is a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward...$21,000,000......$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000......$90,000,000



Will Boston sign him to a 3/$69 million deal in summer 2021 if he plays out his exisitng contract?

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085.....$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000....$103,187,085

Why do you consider $4/90M a lot for a 3rd option? Teams can be structured with 3 maxes. That's a bargain 3rd isn't it?

With some combination of no growth or slow growth in the salary cap for the 2020-21 and 2021-22 seasons, teams will look to tighten up their spending when possible.

* Players worthy of getting a Max contract will still get it.

* The yearly increases in Rookie scale contracts will probably still be there or adjusted if absolutely necessary.

* Raises already agreed to in existing contracts will either be paid in full or adjusted if absolutely necessary.


That leaves the Free Agents in the middle to take most of the hit when teams are forced to control spending.

1. The lower tier Free Agents worth the non-Taxpayer MLE and less will also see some downward pressure in the offers.

2. The Free Agents expecting more than the non-Taxpayer MLE but less than Max will also see some downward pressure in the offers.


If Hayward does opt out and goes into Free Agency this coming offseason, which teams are going to be offering him a 4/$90 million deal? If it is hard for him to find 4/$90 million offers, why should Ainge give him that?

[TheProfessor]

Who is Jaylen Brown.

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

I have very modest expectations for the salary cap with 2020-21 roughly unchanged and 2021-22 having slight growth, I find it difficult to project a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward because that is a lot of salary for a player that is likely to be classified as a #3 or #4 type of player.

The numbers can be shifted as necessary, but here is a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward...$21,000,000......$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000......$90,000,000



Will Boston sign him to a 3/$69 million deal in summer 2021 if he plays out his exisitng contract?

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085.....$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000....$103,187,085

Why do you consider $4/90M a lot for a 3rd option? Teams can be structured with 3 maxes. That's a bargain 3rd isn't it?

With some combination of no growth or slow growth in the salary cap for the 2020-21 and 2021-22 seasons, teams will look to tighten up their spending when possible.

* Players worthy of getting a Max contract will still get it.

* The yearly increases in Rookie scale contracts will probably still be there or adjusted if absolutely necessary.

* Raises already agreed to in existing contracts will either be paid in full or adjusted if absolutely necessary.


That leaves the Free Agents in the middle to take most of the hit when teams are forced to control spending.

1. The lower tier Free Agents worth the non-Taxpayer MLE and less will also see some downward pressure in the offers.

2. The Free Agents expecting more than the non-Taxpayer MLE but less than Max will also see some downward pressure in the offers.


If Hayward does opt out and goes into Free Agency this coming offseason, which teams are going to be offering him a 4/$90 million deal? If it is hard for him to find 4/$90 million offers, why should Ainge give him that?

Yeah, that makes sense for sure. I see it more as he opts in and banks the $34M. Now he only needs 3/$56m in 21 offseason. Same summer teams are lining up space for Giannis. And maybe the forecast looks rosier for growth by then. Cap # will be basically flat, like you say, but a decent number of teams will have adjusted financially by then (ie this offseason, contracts coming up etc). It seems likely he could get a 3 year deal starting at $18M (8% raises => $58) or better from a number of teams if he puts in another really good season and is further removed from the injury. He's just really, really good.

I think that's the baseline Ainge competes against. If Hayward loves BOS (or a team we agree to trade him too) and wants to extend and lock in his money to minimize risk then you can be maybe a little lower? I'm not sure I'd go much lower if I was his agent.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Only realistic way I see it getting done is Hayward for Turner.

This isn't realistic though. Not from the Pacers PoV.

Realistically, the Celtics would call the Pacers and say they are interested in Turner, the Pacers would say they want Jaylen Brown, the Celtics would hang up, and both teams would move on.

Has probably already happened.

[Wizop]

Only realistic way I see it getting done is Hayward for Turner.

This isn't realistic though. Not from the Pacers PoV.

Realistically, the Celtics would call the Pacers and say they are interested in Turner, the Pacers would say they want Jaylen Brown, the Celtics would hang up, and both teams would move on.

Has probably already happened.

Celtics were 3rd seed. Pacers were 4th seed. Yes, they were swept but they were missing an all star. Neither team wants to risk making the other better. If Heyward, Brown, Turner, or Oladipo are on the move, they'll go West.

Sent from my phone.

[basketballwacko2]

No way Pacers giving a first let alone Turner for Smart haha.

Pacers rarely trade their picks literally the only time since ive been a fan since 07 they trade a 1st was 2020 for Brogdon.

Wow.

Smart is so much better than turner.

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

[patman66]

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

yeah, if we want him to cut his first year pay by 10 mill he is going to want at min 4/100, but i think he gets jaylen brown contract just to pacify him.

Sure, but I don’t think he’s going to opt out or extend. Teams are going to be absolutely nervous about extending him without knowing the full ramifications about the cap, and he’s not going to take a pay it without knowing already what he’s going to get long term.

I think the celts are positioned financially to take a hit one year. The team prints money, you think LA is worrying about extending Davis, ingram on the Pelicans. The top guys are going to get their deals It is the mid level guys who may be hurt. maybe some small markets might feel the pinch but the top ten markets a 25% one year decrease in op income is just like any other business that has a bad year, you don't sell the equipment.

[100proof]

Wow.

Smart is so much better than turner.

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

Smart is a better player than turner.

And theis blocks almost as many shots a game as turner.

Celtics team os 5th in the league in blocked shots, and Indiana is 12th.

Indiana needs rim protection more than the Celtics.

[patman66]

Wow.

Smart is so much better than turner.

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

[HartfordWhalers]

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

Don’t do this.

[basketballwacko2]

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

Smart is a better player than turner.

And theis blocks almost as many shots a game as turner.

Celtics team os 5th in the league in blocked shots, and Indiana is 12th.

Indiana needs rim protection more than the Celtics.

This is why it makes no sens to trade Turner for anyone on the Celtics team.

[basketballwacko2]

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

Turner is a unique combination of talent in today;s NBA. 6'11'' good shooter, defender and great shot blocker! Where else are you getting that? If you want him it's a premium not 4 quarter for a dollar bill.

[Scoot McGroot]

Make sense. On Hayward, you'd have to swallow that first year (or be some 3 team with cap space due to S&T from BOS end). But, if the "man I want to play in Indy" part is true, I could see something like a 2-3 year extension in the $20M/yr or less range tacked on, which could be good value once you get past next year. It's what I'm hoping he agrees to with BOS (or a resigin ~4/$100Mish to help us duck the tax for 1 more year).

The problem is, the massive gap means we simply can’t “just get to the next year”, as we’d have to deal (because of luxury tax) essentially 5 roster spots that would only be replaced with Hayward and vet minimums. We’d lose out on the ability to dump any salary (the only guys over vet min/rookie salaries would be the starting 5 and Doug McDermott). If he’d take a cheap extension the next summer, we’d already have thrown away an entire offseason of team building (trades and signings) to commit to enter a summer with two of our key 5 guys unrestricted free agents. It’s just not feasible.

I was assuming you'd be dumping McDermott and/or Leaf in the Hayward trade as well. But, yeah, I still don't think it's a good move for you guys. Did you see the Sabonis for OG/Powell idea in the other thread? Even if not that one per se, that's more the type of trades I'd look for on your end. Pick a center, get some young wing talent.

Yeah if we do that, it has to be a Turner/Lamb/Leaf for Hayward swap, which adds $3m or so to the books for Indy, and leaves us with only 10 guys u be we contract and almost $128m on The books. Filling out the final 5 spots, at just vet minimum signings would leave us over this years luxury tax. With the following roster:
Brogdon/McConnell/Sumner
Oladipo/AHoliday
Warren/McDermott
Hayward
Sabonis/Goga

And 5 vet minimums to fill all the rest of the roster, while still being over the tax. It’s just not realistic for Indy to fit in Hayward, especially if Boston wants to cut a couple million, too.

[Scoot McGroot]

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

Sigh. If this is your takeaway, then you’re just not engaging responsibly. I’m sorry you think that’s how we’re responding, instead of something realistic of “we don’t love trading Turner for a bunch of smaller pieces” or “we can’t afford to deal Turner for Hayward due to how the salary structure would have to work”. But, if you’d like to respond genuinely and discuss fairly, we’ll be here.

[Topofthekey]

Who is Jaylen Brown.

This is the correct answer

But Celtics won't do it, because they feel Brown is more valuable than Turner

Pacers wouldn't do it either, at least not without a follow up trade already in place, because neither Warren nor Brown should be a full time 4

Also Turner is such an important piece for Pacers defense that it is right to question whether the upgrade that Brown brings is worth the downgrade to their defense after trading Turner

Also, contrary to the conventional belief that quality wings are at a premium, it's actually much easier to make a list of players who can replicate what Brown does, than do the same for Turner


Edit:
Brown is a quality 2-way wing. Other quality 2-way wings:

Jimmy Butler
OG Anunoby
Josh Richardson
Victor Oladipo
Caris Levert

That's just the Eastern conference, off the top of my head. The list grows when you include the other conference

Do the same for Turner, who is a switchable, rim protecting, 3pt shooting 5. It'll be a much shorter list

[Scoot McGroot]

Who is Jaylen Brown.

This is the correct answer

But Celtics won't do it, because they feel Brown is more valuable than Turner

Pacers wouldn't do it either, at least not without a follow up trade already in place, because neither Warren nor Brown should be a full time 4

Also Turner is such an important piece for Pacers defense that it is right to question whether the upgrade that Brown brings is worth the downgrade to their defense after trading Turner

Also, contrary to the conventional belief that quality wings are at a premium, it's actually much easier to make a list of players who can replicate what Brown does, than do the same for Turner

Meh. I think Pacers would do it and figure out the 4 later. A defensive duo of Oladipo and Brown, with usable to good defenders in Warren and Brogdon would help minimize the issues with Sabonis in the center. One style of “rim protection” is to stop guys on the perimeter before they get to the rim, and a Brown/Oladipo duo could go a long way to doing that.

[Topofthekey]

Who is Jaylen Brown.

This is the correct answer

But Celtics won't do it, because they feel Brown is more valuable than Turner

Pacers wouldn't do it either, at least not without a follow up trade already in place, because neither Warren nor Brown should be a full time 4

Also Turner is such an important piece for Pacers defense that it is right to question whether the upgrade that Brown brings is worth the downgrade to their defense after trading Turner

Also, contrary to the conventional belief that quality wings are at a premium, it's actually much easier to make a list of players who can replicate what Brown does, than do the same for Turner

Meh. I think Pacers would do it and figure out the 4 later. A defensive duo of Oladipo and Brown, with usable to good defenders in Warren and Brogdon would help minimize the issues with Sabonis in the center. One style of “rim protection” is to stop guys on the perimeter before they get to the rim, and a Brown/Oladipo duo could go a long way to doing that.

That's one way to look at it

One could argue that a Brown-Smart duo is just as effective in perimeter defense as Brown-Oladipo, but Celtics still look like they could use better rim protection, despite also having Tatum in place of Warren

[basketballwacko2]

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

Sigh. If this is your takeaway, then you’re just not engaging responsibly. I’m sorry you think that’s how we’re responding, instead of something realistic of “we don’t love trading Turner for a bunch of smaller pieces” or “we can’t afford to deal Turner for Hayward due to how the salary structure would have to work”. But, if you’d like to respond genuinely and discuss fairly, we’ll be here.

I viewed his response and comment as a kind of "Sour Grapes" you known like, "We made a good offer and you are too stubborn or dumb to take it." I hate to disappoint these guys but that #14 pick and later #1's they have are not that interesting. Langford is neutral value hasn't shown me anything to think he's gonna be a stud, same with the 2 Williams' they have. Maybe if you put them on a team where they play they'd get better, IDK.

And like you said Hayward is a guy we might like if he wasn't on that 1 year $34 million contract. But still not for Turner because that leaves a giant hole in the 4/5 rotation.

[Guzman_9]

Exactly. The Pacers value Turner a ton. Now will he return a superstar? No but the Pacers arent gonna trade him for a few bench players and late lottery picks. Majority of people probably just typed in Myles Turner and see 12.5 and 6 and think “psh hes not good we will get him for cheap.”

He has Philly R. Covington value. Don’t like it? Sucks.