Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[TheGOATRises007]

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

What a hilariously disingenuous argument.

The only reason why 22 year old LeBron wasn't being bounced in the 1st round is because the Eastern conference was so vapid that even those "just getting good" Cleveland teams could advance to the finals. Yeah...22 year old MJ got bounced in the 1st round...by ****ing Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics, and the Detroit Pistons with a HOF Zeke Thomas. Need we bring up that MJ averaged 44 ppg against the Celtics; playing alongside who exactly? They simply weren't ready to battle teams that were literal dynasties, big deal. LeBron's only competition in the East for years was Demar Derozan's Raptors. You are comparing apples to hot dogs.

Both guys get the obvious leeway of the fact that as being young stars on teams that were previously horrendous, there is an expected initial stage in the "rising period" wherein the young star finally takes the team to the playoffs, but lacks playoff experience and the rest of the team still isn't good enough to actually contend against a good team. This is the case with virtually every young star who actually succeeds in turning around a bad team. The only difference is that when LeBron was in this "stage" the East was so pathetically bad that even with Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic he was able to advance. You're telling me that 22 year old LeBron beats Bird and the Celtics? Ooookay.

Also, how in the hell is LeBron in the Wizards era of his career? He is 35 years old...Jordan was 40 when he was playing with the Wizards. There is a huge difference in 35 vs. 40. LeBron has also played in the softest era of NBA basketball in decades; which means that he has avoided punishment his entire career...hence why he has been able to age gracefully.

I think your missing the point that back in the early 2000s, the East wasnt weak and he had to beat teams with multiple AllStars/HOFers to get to the Finals. The East became weak in 2010 when he went to the Heat and the Celtics shortly after were disbanded. Those Pistons teams with Chauncy/RIP/Sheed/Prince/Ben was no joke. And LeBron beat them practically single handedly

The Pistons weren't very good in 2007 though. They were better in 2008(but they didn't play the Cavs).

Their SRS was just 3.69. The Cavs were at 3.33.

The East was very weak that year.

The 3 best teams in the league were clearly in the West.

[BigBoss23]

So the whole argument by OP is basically empty stats = better basketball player.

LeBron isn't even in the GOAT discussion...its simple

I'm actually surprised after multiple collusions and so many cherry picked teams, that this loser could only muster up 3 rings...2 of which he was luckily bailed out on and given.

Nothing about this guy makes him Goat

Man is closer to 1-8 than 4-5 like you said. Despite a decade's worth of free agent superteaming on 3 occasions and counting.

[BigBoss23]

What a hilariously disingenuous argument.

The only reason why 22 year old LeBron wasn't being bounced in the 1st round is because the Eastern conference was so vapid that even those "just getting good" Cleveland teams could advance to the finals. Yeah...22 year old MJ got bounced in the 1st round...by ****ing Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics, and the Detroit Pistons with a HOF Zeke Thomas. Need we bring up that MJ averaged 44 ppg against the Celtics; playing alongside who exactly? They simply weren't ready to battle teams that were literal dynasties, big deal. LeBron's only competition in the East for years was Demar Derozan's Raptors. You are comparing apples to hot dogs.

Both guys get the obvious leeway of the fact that as being young stars on teams that were previously horrendous, there is an expected initial stage in the "rising period" wherein the young star finally takes the team to the playoffs, but lacks playoff experience and the rest of the team still isn't good enough to actually contend against a good team. This is the case with virtually every young star who actually succeeds in turning around a bad team. The only difference is that when LeBron was in this "stage" the East was so pathetically bad that even with Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic he was able to advance. You're telling me that 22 year old LeBron beats Bird and the Celtics? Ooookay.

Also, how in the hell is LeBron in the Wizards era of his career? He is 35 years old...Jordan was 40 when he was playing with the Wizards. There is a huge difference in 35 vs. 40. LeBron has also played in the softest era of NBA basketball in decades; which means that he has avoided punishment his entire career...hence why he has been able to age gracefully.

I think your missing the point that back in the early 2000s, the East wasnt weak and he had to beat teams with multiple AllStars/HOFers to get to the Finals. The East became weak in 2010 when he went to the Heat and the Celtics shortly after were disbanded. Those Pistons teams with Chauncy/RIP/Sheed/Prince/Ben was no joke. And LeBron beat them practically single handedly

The Pistons weren't very good in 2007 though. They were better in 2008(but they didn't play the Cavs).

Their SRS was just 3.69. The Cavs were at 3.33.

The East was very weak that year.

The 3 best teams in the league were clearly in the West.

The 2007 Pistons were at the end of their run like you said, No prime Ben Wallace but rather the corpse of Chris Webber lol.

[JoeyLightYears]

So the whole argument by OP is basically empty stats = better basketball player.

LeBron isn't even in the GOAT discussion...its simple

I'm actually surprised after multiple collusions and so many cherry picked teams, that this loser could only muster up 3 rings...2 of which he was luckily bailed out on and given.

Nothing about this guy makes him Goat

Man is closer to 1-8 than 4-5 like you said. Despite a decade's worth of free agent superteaming on 3 occasions and counting.

Jerry West actually was 1-8 and he was a phenomenal player and considered the clutchest ever. Team sports, eh?

[dhsilv2]

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

The titles is what everything is about and demonstrates the player was able to overcome the many many diversities and issues to get that. Granted you have some players like Robert Horry was really along for some free rides - but when you are talking about elite players, those titles says a lot even though it's not everything. I remember Jordan play, I have seen Kobe play his entire career and LeBron. There are things that Kobe could do that Michael Jordan could do and there are things that LeBron does that Kobe did not. No one will ever be the pure shooter and closer Kobe was, but LeBron has a balanced game and is the best team player I have seen and is ore who empowers others to play with him. I simply have to go with Michael Jordan if for no other reason was a pioneer in the game right next to Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabaar who definitely deserve to be in the same conversation

Titles are won by teams, not individuals. Jordan doesn't have the same legacy if say Paxton or Kerr miss those shots. MJ never won a title without elite defenders around him either. Nobody wins alone and using titles to rank players is just nonsense.

And Horry was by no means just along for the ride. He was a key and critical player on multiple title teams. Those teams very likely don't win without him.

[dhsilv2]

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

This is how the greatest in sports are measured by how much they won, Messi and CR7 they won a bunch, pele also, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Brady also won a bunch.
Its like that in all sports the guys who win the most=greatest.
That is what fans want TITLES not 2nd places.
But you want change how people view the greatest because it fits your narative to prop Lebron up

Given I don't care for lebron, I'm clearly not trying to change the criteria. I'm just going against stupid criteria used by simple casual fans.

[life_saver]

Lebron is better but sadly we have lot of nostalgia merchants

[nikster]

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

What a hilariously disingenuous argument.

The only reason why 22 year old LeBron wasn't being bounced in the 1st round is because the Eastern conference was so vapid that even those "just getting good" Cleveland teams could advance to the finals. Yeah...22 year old MJ got bounced in the 1st round...by ****ing Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics, and the Detroit Pistons with a HOF Zeke Thomas. Need we bring up that MJ averaged 44 ppg against the Celtics; playing alongside who exactly? They simply weren't ready to battle teams that were literal dynasties, big deal. LeBron's only competition in the East for years was Demar Derozan's Raptors. You are comparing apples to hot dogs.

Both guys get the obvious leeway of the fact that as being young stars on teams that were previously horrendous, there is an expected initial stage in the "rising period" wherein the young star finally takes the team to the playoffs, but lacks playoff experience and the rest of the team still isn't good enough to actually contend against a good team. This is the case with virtually every young star who actually succeeds in turning around a bad team. The only difference is that when LeBron was in this "stage" the East was so pathetically bad that even with Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic he was able to advance. You're telling me that 22 year old LeBron beats Bird and the Celtics? Ooookay.

Also, how in the hell is LeBron in the Wizards era of his career? He is 35 years old...Jordan was 40 when he was playing with the Wizards. There is a huge difference in 35 vs. 40. LeBron has also played in the softest era of NBA basketball in decades; which means that he has avoided punishment his entire career...hence why he has been able to age gracefully.

Jordan was going up against the Celtics in the first round because his team sucked. Sub 0.500, only making the playoffs because the bottom of the East was very weak. No I dont think Lebrons beating those Celts teams. I also dont think MJ is going to the Finals in 07

[nikster]

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

Mavs continue to be underrated

[Camping Fan]

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

The titles is what everything is about and demonstrates the player was able to overcome the many many diversities and issues to get that. Granted you have some players like Robert Horry was really along for some free rides - but when you are talking about elite players, those titles says a lot even though it's not everything. I remember Jordan play, I have seen Kobe play his entire career and LeBron. There are things that Kobe could do that Michael Jordan could do and there are things that LeBron does that Kobe did not. No one will ever be the pure shooter and closer Kobe was, but LeBron has a balanced game and is the best team player I have seen and is ore who empowers others to play with him. I simply have to go with Michael Jordan if for no other reason was a pioneer in the game right next to Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabaar who definitely deserve to be in the same conversation

Titles are won by teams, not individuals. Jordan doesn't have the same legacy if say Paxton or Kerr miss those shots. MJ never won a title without elite defenders around him either. Nobody wins alone and using titles to rank players is just nonsense.

And Horry was by no means just along for the ride. He was a key and critical player on multiple title teams. Those teams very likely don't win without him.

That's a valid argument, but titles are won by teams with key players that are the leaders. In all walks of life it comes down to the leadership which in this case comes down to Michael Jordan vs Lebron and Michael Jordan hands down was the best of the two by a wide margin

[Camping Fan]

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

This is how the greatest in sports are measured by how much they won, Messi and CR7 they won a bunch, pele also, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Brady also won a bunch.
Its like that in all sports the guys who win the most=greatest.
That is what fans want TITLES not 2nd places.
But you want change how people view the greatest because it fits your narative to prop Lebron up

Given I don't care for lebron, I'm clearly not trying to change the criteria. I'm just going against stupid criteria used by simple casual fans.

It's not a simple criteria - for the fans who watched basketball - I guarantee you most of those who favor Michael Jordan saw him play and have seen LeBron play - the championship titles is an important piece, but honestly - I don't think anyone who has seen both of them play is going to say with authority that LeBron is better

[Myth]

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"

Yeah, that little white guy was a scrub...




(btw, don't see your friend Lebron in those stats...)

I don't know the posters age and don't know if his age has to do with this brutally bad take, but it saddens me that there are now adults who never saw Jordan and other players of his era and will gradually over time become louder and louder voices for LeBron (and eventually others) being better than Jordan despite never seeing Jordan. I truly value and love listening to older people talk and compare players of eras I have seen to guys like prime KAJ, Russell, and Wilt. But some people just dismiss anything before their time. I assume there is some subconscious desire to have seen the best.

[Air Apparent]

if the topic is better at the sport, then there is no need for arguments

jordan was farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr better offensively, had a complete offensive game, mid-range, ft, post-up etc., and the one small stretch he was playing pg in his early career (not playing in the triangle) he was dropping triple-doubles left and right, and farrrrrrrrrrr better defensively

[stormi]

I always find it strange that people are so fiercely invested in another man's place in history, especially in comparison to other men. Why can't it be as simple as both of them are amongst the absolute greatest, in the same echelon of greatness?

You post on an internet forum dedicated to watching grown men play a children's game. This is the wrong time to virtue signal.

[stormi]

Jordan has zero iconic finals wins. Jordan ducked all of the greats from his era. Got spanked by the Pistons, Bird, Magic; couldn't win until they all either got old or retired.

Lebron is clear tbh.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Jordan has zero iconic finals wins. Jordan ducked all of the greats from his era. Got spanked by the Pistons, Bird, Magic; couldn't win until they all either got old or retired.

Lebron is clear tbh.

No iconic finals wins? I guess carrying the team all by himself in 1998, scoring 40+ points the last game and hitting one of the most iconic game-winners of all time doesn't count?

Magic wasn't "old" in 1991, he was still a top 5 player, easily. He just was forced into early retirement due to HIV.

He got spanked by the Celtics because he had no team.

He took the Pistons to 6 and 7 games in the ECF, that's not getting spanked.

[LAKESHOW]

Lebron defeating a 73 win team, would be as if MJs team, which some round here call the greatest...Lost in the Finals. Lebron did that. And if Lebron wins this year with the LAKERS in 2020, with an unheard of 3rd different team? He will go down as G.O.A.T.

[JoeyLightYears]

Jordan has zero iconic finals wins. Jordan ducked all of the greats from his era. Got spanked by the Pistons, Bird, Magic; couldn't win until they all either got old or retired.

Lebron is clear tbh.

No iconic finals wins? I guess carrying the team all by himself in 1998, scoring 40+ points the last game and hitting one of the most iconic game-winners of all time doesn't count?

Pretty sure that iconic game-winner was an offensive foul

[JoeyLightYears]

I don't know the posters age and don't know if his age has to do with this brutally bad take, but it saddens me that there are now adults who never saw Jordan and other players of his era and will gradually over time become louder and louder voices for LeBron (and eventually others) being better than Jordan despite never seeing Jordan. I truly value and love listening to older people talk and compare players of eras I have seen to guys like prime KAJ, Russell, and Wilt. But some people just dismiss anything before their time. I assume there is some subconscious desire to have seen the best.

At the same time, there is a nostalgia factor that makes people overrate the players they saw growing up. For myself, I thought MJ was great and he was considered the consensus best player in the league in the 90s, but for his early career he did a lot of losing and there was this perception that his style of play would never win. Then PJ took over from Collins, introduced the triangle, and got pieces like Pippen and Grant to really contribute and the rest is history. But let's not rewrite history and pretend Jordan (or the Bulls, really), never struggled. Even in his wins he didn't always play the greatest. I didn't think his '96 performance against the Sonics was that much to write home about for one.

[Fencer reregistered]

Yes, for me Jordan was unquestionably better at basketball than LeBron. Among other things, he didn't have any huge weaknesses to his game either offensively or defensively, while that could not be said for LeBron (free throwing throughout the career, long-range shooting for a big part of his career). And there's so much more one could say about "MJ > LBJ", but it's all been said before.

And for me, LeBron isn't even #2, players such as KAJ, Magic, Duncan, Bird and Russell are ahead of him in the GOAT rankings, while besides Wilt LeBron has the GOAT athleticism in NBA history.

How did you manage to decide that long-range shooting is an advantage for Jordan over Lebron?

Here is a good place to start:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1930800

You could also check out the Michael Jordan: The Legend of the Greatest video referenced in the thread. I was watching some MJ highlights recently, and he shot a shot from beyond half court, before the buzzer of a game in which the Bulls were up by close to ten points. That's how much guys cared about protecting their 3P% in his day. When you're already only shooting one or two 3's a game, those kinds of shots can have a huge influence on your percentages. Even without adjusting for the facts that the three point line wasn't even in the NBA until he was like 16 years old and nobody really shot it much until he was getting close to his second retirement, Jordan was a much better three-point shooter than his numbers indicate.

I know Jordan got a lot of hype at the time for the unblockable 3s due to their elevation. He even lobbied to be in the 3 pt contest, only to do horribly once he was there.

But I just don't recall that being a serious/reliable weapon for any length of time.