Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[stormi]

except for Dirk who was older than pistons and the lakers. With an even older supporting cast vs the not 1 not 2....not 7 Heat were the GOAT candidate got outplayed by a 33 year old Jason Terry and jj barea that is the most EPIC choke by a star player in all of sports history then got sent back to cleveland by a 37 year old duncan, 36 year old ginobili and 32 year old Parker all older than the pistons and lakers.

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Dirk is not below Kawhi nor KD. That's just absurd.

Yes he absolutely is, unless you're giving him longevity points. Kawhi has won championships and FMVP's in both conferences. KD is arguably the greatest scorer the game has ever seen and a B2B FMVP. Dirk isn't on that level, magical run included.

[stormi]

Lebron James was the 5th best player in the 2011 NBA Finals behind Dirk, Dwayne Wade, Jason Terry and Chris Bosh.

Was there ever a playoff series that Michael Jordan played in where he was not the best player? and that includes the series against one the greatest teams of all time in 1986 Celtics.

You are out of your mind if you don't think Dirk is an all time great player. With the exception of Shaq, Dirk beat every other comparable superstar in the post season at least once and that includes defeating
Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Tim Duncan (2x without HCA), Kevin Garnett, Steve Nash

I count 10 MVP's among those players I just listed, and that is not including Russel Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, or James Harden.

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

Jordan never had a series as bad as Lebron's in 2011.

As for the bold: some of you need to brush up on your history. Don't talk when you don't know.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html

I don't see any other stars on that Bulls team.

Jordans record without Pippen:

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)

shocker.

[TheGOATRises007]

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Dirk is not below Kawhi nor KD. That's just absurd.

Yes he absolutely is, unless you're giving him longevity points. Kawhi has won championships and FMVP's in both conferences. KD is arguably the greatest scorer the game has ever seen and a B2B FMVP. Dirk isn't on that level, magical run included.

Who cares about Kawhi's FMVP in 2014? It's one of the weakest FMVP's ever. Why would you even cite that? It's nonsense.

He was basically a role player then. Any of Duncan, Parker or Manu could have also won MVP.

Dirk's career value far exceeds Kawhi's. Kawhi's peak is arguable over Dirk, but he's not a tier above him. Did you even watch Dirk? Kawhi doesn't even come close to the body of work Dirk has.

KD isn't arguably the greatest scorer we've ever seen. His playoff runs sans GS are all rather disappointing and he hasn't exactly fared that well against great defenses throughout his OKC playoff career. He's not even the best active scorer. Lebron is a better scorer than KD.

[TheGOATRises007]

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

Jordan never had a series as bad as Lebron's in 2011.

As for the bold: some of you need to brush up on your history. Don't talk when you don't know.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html

I don't see any other stars on that Bulls team.

Jordans record without Pippen:

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)

shocker.

That's actually a brilliant way to illustrate stats without context.

Pippen with his 10.6 PPG average on under 50% TS is definitely a star and played a key role in the Bulls upset of the Cavs.

His BPM was negative that entire season. He was terrible when he came into the league. He was terrible the following season too.

Why do you talk when you don't know?

I swear the way some of you go on about Pippen, you'd think he was a superstar equivalent to Jordan.

[stormi]

Dirk is not below Kawhi nor KD. That's just absurd.

Yes he absolutely is, unless you're giving him longevity points. Kawhi has won championships and FMVP's in both conferences. KD is arguably the greatest scorer the game has ever seen and a B2B FMVP. Dirk isn't on that level, magical run included.

Who cares about Kawhi's FMVP in 2014? It's one of the weakest FMVP's ever. Why would you even cite that? It's nonsense.

He was basically a role player then. Any of Duncan, Parker or Manu could have also won MVP.

Dirk's career value far exceeds Kawhi's. Kawhi's peak is arguable over Dirk, but he's not a tier above him. Did you even watch Dirk? Kawhi doesn't even come close to the body of work Dirk has.

KD isn't arguably the greatest scorer we've ever seen. His playoff runs sans GS are all rather disappointing and he hasn't exactly fared that well against great defenses throughout his OKC playoff career. He's not even the best active scorer. Lebron is a better scorer than KD.

[stormi]

Jordan never had a series as bad as Lebron's in 2011.

As for the bold: some of you need to brush up on your history. Don't talk when you don't know.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html

I don't see any other stars on that Bulls team.

Jordans record without Pippen:

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)

shocker.

That's actually a brilliant way to illustrate stats without context.

Pippen with his 10.6 PPG average on under 50% TS is definitely a star and played a key role in the Bulls upset of the Cavs.

His BPM was negative that entire season. He was terrible when he came into the league. He was terrible the following season too.

Why do you talk when you don't know?

I swear the way some of you go on about Pippen, you'd think he was a superstar equivalent to Jordan.

oh, now here come the excuses. but when it's Lebron it's 3-6. No context. crazy

[TheGOATRises007]

Jordans record without Pippen:

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)

shocker.

That's actually a brilliant way to illustrate stats without context.

Pippen with his 10.6 PPG average on under 50% TS is definitely a star and played a key role in the Bulls upset of the Cavs.

His BPM was negative that entire season. He was terrible when he came into the league. He was terrible the following season too.

Why do you talk when you don't know?

I swear the way some of you go on about Pippen, you'd think he was a superstar equivalent to Jordan.

oh, now here come the excuses. but when it's Lebron it's 3-6. No context. crazy

You don't even address my points and I never mentioned Lebron's 3-6 record in the finals. I had Lebron as the 2nd best player ever after 2013. Probably higher than anyone on here after his 2013 season.

You're not interested in any discussion. You just want to come off like a smart-ass. Congrats. You achieved that.

[Sgt Major]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Jonny Blaze]

DIrk isn't an ATG from this era, a slot below Durant, Kawhi and Steph. But he and those Mavs are leagues better than the .500 Cavs led by Larry Nance and Mark Price that bounced Air Slot Machine in a 5 game first round

Lebron James was the 5th best player in the 2011 NBA Finals behind Dirk, Dwayne Wade, Jason Terry and Chris Bosh.

Was there ever a playoff series that Michael Jordan played in where he was not the best player? and that includes the series against one the greatest teams of all time in 1986 Celtics.

You are out of your mind if you don't think Dirk is an all time great player. With the exception of Shaq, Dirk beat every other comparable superstar in the post season at least once and that includes defeating
Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Tim Duncan (2x without HCA), Kevin Garnett, Steve Nash

I count 10 MVP's among those players I just listed, and that is not including Russel Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, or James Harden.

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

Lebron also had a bad series in the 2007 Finals. Lebron stans seem to want to pretend that the 2011 Finals is an isolated incident.

Lebron James was horrible in his first two Finals appearances against the Spurs and Mavericks.

Can you name me any playoff series that Michael Jordan ever played below average?

I can tell you were not alive to see Jordan play, but Jordan never had a bad series. Like it just did not happen. The dude always came to play.

[JordansBulls]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Actually 24-0 with HCA.

[VanWest82]

It's clear as day who was actually around and watching basketball 30 years ago. Some of these anti-MJ takes are just laughable.

[stormi]

Lebron James was the 5th best player in the 2011 NBA Finals behind Dirk, Dwayne Wade, Jason Terry and Chris Bosh.

Was there ever a playoff series that Michael Jordan played in where he was not the best player? and that includes the series against one the greatest teams of all time in 1986 Celtics.

You are out of your mind if you don't think Dirk is an all time great player. With the exception of Shaq, Dirk beat every other comparable superstar in the post season at least once and that includes defeating
Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Tim Duncan (2x without HCA), Kevin Garnett, Steve Nash

I count 10 MVP's among those players I just listed, and that is not including Russel Westbrook, Dwayne Wade, or James Harden.

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

Lebron also had a bad series in the 2007 Finals. Lebron stans seem to want to pretend that the 2011 Finals is an isolated incident.

Lebron James was horrible in his first two Finals appearances against the Spurs and Mavericks.

Can you name me any playoff series that Michael Jordan ever played below average?

I can tell you were not alive to see Jordan play, but Jordan never had a bad series. Like it just did not happen. The dude always came to play.

Yes we point to examples of Lebron in the finals. Which Jordan could never make as the head honcho. His record without Pippen speaks for itself. The Bulls winning 50+ games after he left speaks for itself. He was the best scorer on a stacked team. Not diverse enough to carry a team. The stat above shows all of his playoff wins came from being a higher seed and needing HCA. Sad.

[tanuki1031]

92 Dream Team - MJ chose to and beat most of the big dogs who were his rivals
08 Redeem Team - Lebron chose to and played with most of the big dogs who were his rivals

Especially in the playoffs.

[FreeThrowLine]

If you watched Jordan play and aren't still feeling the effects of him destroying your teams chances of a trophy then the only argument you need is common sense. No unbiased person is watching these 2 guys careers, style of play, ability to control a game and lead his team to a win when it matters, then coming to the conclusion that Lebron is better.

The only people that think that are the young ones and the insufferable Lebron fans that treat the guy like he's cured cancer and gloss over all his failures with the same nonsense arguments about Jordan's record pre-Pippen as if Pippen was this superstar early in his career. These people love to overrate Pippen overall and MJ's supporting cast of mostly past their prime players or non allstar role players all while talking down Lebrons supporting casts.

These people also like to make out that the 90's was not only a weak era but apparently the weakest when that couldn't be further from the truth.

The reality is the Spurs and Warriors were amazing teams and both arguably better than any team the Bulls played in the finals but the rest of the playoffs/finals the Bulls faced tougher opponents in the Magic/Pacers/Knicks/Sonics/Lakers/Jazz. Those people will talk down the Jazz but not bring up the teams they beat on the way to the finals.

Finally they'll go on about total stats while ignoring the number of games played, and bring up 3 point shooting as if LBJ's career 34.4% from 3 is astronomically better than MJ's 32.7%. They'll also ignore how much the game has changed and that LBJ has already attempted 5,453 threes to MJ's 1,778

Nothing good ever comes from these threads anyway, I'm yet to see anyone change their mind and to be it's fairly obvious which one was 'actually better at basketball'

[LivingLegend]

So the whole argument by OP is basically empty stats = better basketball player.

LeBron isn't even in the GOAT discussion...its simple

I'm actually surprised after multiple collusions and so many cherry picked teams, that this loser could only muster up 3 rings...2 of which he was luckily bailed out on and given.

Nothing about this guy makes him Goat

Sure man, and all of that top level competition Jordan had to beat surely makes him the GOAT

Dude got locked up by a PG in Gary Payton and lost 3x in the first round before Pippen showed up. He surely was amazing though for those 6 years where the deck was stacked in the dead era of basketball hahaha

[TheGOATRises007]

Again you typed a lot to not really make a point. Lebron had a bad series in 2011, nobody will deny that, just like Jordan being swept in round 1 countless times and not being able to win a playoff round until he was surrounded by stars won't stop him from being an all time great. He's just not Lebron.

Lebron also had a bad series in the 2007 Finals. Lebron stans seem to want to pretend that the 2011 Finals is an isolated incident.

Lebron James was horrible in his first two Finals appearances against the Spurs and Mavericks.

Can you name me any playoff series that Michael Jordan ever played below average?

I can tell you were not alive to see Jordan play, but Jordan never had a bad series. Like it just did not happen. The dude always came to play.

Yes we point to examples of Lebron in the finals. Which Jordan could never make as the head honcho. His record without Pippen speaks for itself. The Bulls winning 50+ games after he left speaks for itself. He was the best scorer on a stacked team. Not diverse enough to carry a team. The stat above shows all of his playoff wins came from being a higher seed and needing HCA. Sad.

You should go follow a different sport.

The Bulls' SRS without Jordan wasn't very good either. It was 2.87. It was 6+ the prior season. It was even worse in 94-95 until Jordan came back from retirement and led them to a 4.32 SRS.

It's quite obvious by now that you literally have no clue what you're talking about.

I hope you're trolling, but I think you're just clueless.

[TheGOATRises007]

So the whole argument by OP is basically empty stats = better basketball player.

LeBron isn't even in the GOAT discussion...its simple

I'm actually surprised after multiple collusions and so many cherry picked teams, that this loser could only muster up 3 rings...2 of which he was luckily bailed out on and given.

Nothing about this guy makes him Goat

Sure man, and all of that top level competition Jordan had to beat surely makes him the GOAT

Dude got locked up by a PG in Gary Payton and lost 3x in the first round before Pippen showed up. He surely was amazing though for those 6 years where the deck was stacked in the dead era of basketball hahaha

Payton is one of the best defenders ever. Why are you saying it like he wasn't?

And Jordan's 96 finals performance is still way better than Lebron's in 2011 and 2007.

[soxfan2003]

> NBA defenders are at their toughest/best right now
> Teams are scoring at a higher rate and efficiency than anytime in the past ~50 years

Pick one.

But it's both...

It isn't really both...it is relatively easy nowadays to score driving to the hoop. I am no Jordan jocker but when Jordan played, there was still plenty of teams playing big front lines and the refs were not calling all of the fouls on players like Charles Oakley. Celtics were bigger than most teams but had a starting lineup of 2 6"4 guards, a 6"9 SF, a 6-10 PF and a 7ft center.

Given the rules back then and the game not having evolved to favor the 3, driving to the hoop against many teams was very difficult.

When you watch Jordan in most of his finals, you get a misleading portrait of what he really faced in the mid to late 80's especially. Despite Jordan's awesome leaping ability, incredible quickess and really good speed, he was like a ballerina in how he darted to the hoop.

For a 6"5 player with the ball in his hands, the young Jordan before the 90's at least could change directions in like the basketball version of Barry Sanders. He could weave in between players really fast. Guy was like a 6"5 ballerina at times.

When Jordan scored a ton of points against Celtics in playoffs, I will be the first to admit Celtics didn't prioritize him that much in 86 and certainly didn't go out and try to trade for a quicker guard like Sydney Moncrief. But how he was moving to get quite a few 6-10 ft shots at various angles was ridiculously impressive. He wasn't going to get many dunks against the Celtics big front line since paint was too congested but his incredible maneuverability to go alongside his jumping ability, allowed him to get shots off that even Kobe/Wade would have struggled to come close to matching. And Kobe/Wade probably two of the best after Jordan of making moves like Jordan was doing routinely.

[LivingLegend]

Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity


"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"


I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Your trash ass thread is devoid of any facts, statistics or personal analysis on why you think your **** opinion doesn't stink, and you want others to take the time and effort to retort your troll attempt with in depth thought?

Here, I'll **** with you, too....don't want to bring championships into this, how about personal accomplishments. We'll start with 10 scoring titles.

How about aesthetics, skills? Can Kawhi or Lebron do a single thing MJ could mid-air? Many called MJ the GOAT during his first threepeat, he didn't even need the second one, simply because OF HIS GAME, forget everything else. Couple that with dominance, and you have a thing of beauty.

Turn off Youtube, close basketballreference.com and go watch some Bulls ESPN classic from opening tip to final horn, that's the only way you'll get it.

Kurt Rambis and John Stockton ....here he is shooting a beautiful fadeaway on a muscle bound black guy that would chew and spit out the defensive stalwarts of this era, RIP.



Kawhi could three peat twice, foh, 13ppg Finals MVP.

Stop. Watch this. It was better than Jordans fadeaways and it just happend 2 years ago.

Watch on YouTube

[Metallikid]

#1 - Most championships as the #1

#2 - Most FMVPs

#3 - Better Scorer