2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

[KGdaBom]

Random question.

Would drafting Killian Hayes be a mistake?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

IMO yes. A very big mistake at #1 overall. He's a PG which we don't need and he's not a good shooter.

[KGdaBom]

Random question.
Would drafting Killian Hayes be a mistake?

Nope. I think he can be our version of Jamal Murray, combo guard with shooting and passing. But I hope we can trade down and draft him at 4/5/6.

We already have our version of Murray and that's Russell. Hayes is not Murray like in any way that I can see.

[Klomp]

Okogie is only 6-4 on a tall hair day and he been playing some SF. Landry Shamet plays some backup SF minutes for Clippers behind Kawhi and Shamet is only 6-4. There are oodles of 6-6 players supposedly in this draft and any of them might be able to play SF here if they can prove some 3 and D and slashing skills. Of course it would be nice to find a tru 6'7 player with some length to wreck the role here.

Once again there's no way to know how tall these players are because all the sites just make up whatever they want. I trust Basketball reference pretty well and they have Okogie at the 6'4" you mentioned. They have Culver at 6'6" and they have Deni Avdija at 6'7" while many reports are he's 6'9". I really believe he has every bit as much potential as Edwards plays a position or greater need, actually defends people and creates better for his teammates. I like the big guys Wiseman and Okongwu, but supposedly per doogie no way in hell we are taking a big so lets at least take someone sort of big.

You just have to know which sites to trust.

These measurements were taken at the NBA Draft Combine (no shoes / shoes). Obviously players can still grow after this point, but it still gives a good baseline where most NBA players are measured at the same stage of their NBA careers.
Josh Okogie: 6'3" / 6'4.5"
Jarrett Culver: 6'5.25" / 6'6.75"

Compare with some other players....
Jaylen Brown: 6' 5.25'' / 6' 6.75''
Justise Winslow: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 6.5''
Jerami Grant: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 7.75''
Marcus Smart: 6' 2'' / 6' 3.25''
Brandon Clarke: 6' 7.25'' / 6' 8.25''
Tyler Herro: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 6''
Cam Reddish: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 8''
PJ Washington: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 8''
Landry Shamet: 6' 4'' / 6' 5.25''
OG Anunoby: 6' 6.25'' / 6' 7.75''
Malik Beasley: 6' 3.5'' / 6' 4.5''
Buddy Hield: 6' 3.75'' / 6' 5''
Jake Layman: 6' 8'' / 6' 9.25''
Caris LeVert: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7''
Devin Booker: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 5.75''
Montrezl Harrell: 6' 7'' / 6' 7.5''
D'Angelo Russell: 6' 3.25'' / 6' 5''
Robert Covington: 6' 6.25'' / 6' 7.5''
Victor Oladipo: 6' 3.25'' / 6' 4.25''
Jae Crowder: 6' 4.75'' / 6' 6.5''
Draymond Green: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7.5''
Khris Middleton: 6' 6.75'' / 6' 8.25''
Jimmy Butler: 6' 6'' / 6' 7.75''
Tobias Harris: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 7.75''
Kawhi Leonard: 6' 6'' / 6' 7''
Klay Thompson: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7.25''
Danny Green: 6' 5.25'' / 6' 6.5''
James Harden: 6' 4'' / 6' 5.25''
James Johnson: 6' 7'' / 6' 7.75''

[minimus]

Jarrett Culver: 6'5.25" / 6'6.75"

Compare with some other players....
Jaylen Brown: 6' 5.25'' / 6' 6.75''
Justise Winslow: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 6.5''
Jerami Grant: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 7.75''
Marcus Smart: 6' 2'' / 6' 3.25''
Brandon Clarke: 6' 7.25'' / 6' 8.25''
Tyler Herro: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 6''
Cam Reddish: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 8''
PJ Washington: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 8''
Landry Shamet: 6' 4'' / 6' 5.25''
OG Anunoby: 6' 6.25'' / 6' 7.75''
Malik Beasley: 6' 3.5'' / 6' 4.5''
Buddy Hield: 6' 3.75'' / 6' 5''
Jake Layman: 6' 8'' / 6' 9.25''
Caris LeVert: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7''
Devin Booker: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 5.75''
Montrezl Harrell: 6' 7'' / 6' 7.5''
D'Angelo Russell: 6' 3.25'' / 6' 5''
Robert Covington: 6' 6.25'' / 6' 7.5''
Victor Oladipo: 6' 3.25'' / 6' 4.25''
Jae Crowder: 6' 4.75'' / 6' 6.5''
Draymond Green: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7.5''
Khris Middleton: 6' 6.75'' / 6' 8.25''
Jimmy Butler: 6' 6'' / 6' 7.75''
Tobias Harris: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 7.75''
Kawhi Leonard: 6' 6'' / 6' 7''
Klay Thompson: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7.25''
Danny Green: 6' 5.25'' / 6' 6.5''
James Harden: 6' 4'' / 6' 5.25''
James Johnson: 6' 7'' / 6' 7.75''

I would love to get Reddish, he might be SF we need. Also I think weight/functional muscles is equally important. Still drives me crazy that Wiggins could not put additional 10-15lbs after many season.

[KGdaBom]

Okogie is only 6-4 on a tall hair day and he been playing some SF. Landry Shamet plays some backup SF minutes for Clippers behind Kawhi and Shamet is only 6-4. There are oodles of 6-6 players supposedly in this draft and any of them might be able to play SF here if they can prove some 3 and D and slashing skills. Of course it would be nice to find a tru 6'7 player with some length to wreck the role here.

Once again there's no way to know how tall these players are because all the sites just make up whatever they want. I trust Basketball reference pretty well and they have Okogie at the 6'4" you mentioned. They have Culver at 6'6" and they have Deni Avdija at 6'7" while many reports are he's 6'9". I really believe he has every bit as much potential as Edwards plays a position or greater need, actually defends people and creates better for his teammates. I like the big guys Wiseman and Okongwu, but supposedly per doogie no way in hell we are taking a big so lets at least take someone sort of big.

You just have to know which sites to trust.

These measurements were taken at the NBA Draft Combine (no shoes / shoes). Obviously players can still grow after this point, but it still gives a good baseline where most NBA players are measured at the same stage of their NBA careers.
Josh Okogie: 6'3" / 6'4.5"
Jarrett Culver: 6'5.25" / 6'6.75"

Compare with some other players....
Jaylen Brown: 6' 5.25'' / 6' 6.75''
Justise Winslow: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 6.5''
Jerami Grant: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 7.75''
Marcus Smart: 6' 2'' / 6' 3.25''
Brandon Clarke: 6' 7.25'' / 6' 8.25''
Tyler Herro: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 6''
Cam Reddish: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 8''
PJ Washington: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 8''
Landry Shamet: 6' 4'' / 6' 5.25''
OG Anunoby: 6' 6.25'' / 6' 7.75''
Malik Beasley: 6' 3.5'' / 6' 4.5''
Buddy Hield: 6' 3.75'' / 6' 5''
Jake Layman: 6' 8'' / 6' 9.25''
Caris LeVert: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7''
Devin Booker: 6' 4.5'' / 6' 5.75''
Montrezl Harrell: 6' 7'' / 6' 7.5''
D'Angelo Russell: 6' 3.25'' / 6' 5''
Robert Covington: 6' 6.25'' / 6' 7.5''
Victor Oladipo: 6' 3.25'' / 6' 4.25''
Jae Crowder: 6' 4.75'' / 6' 6.5''
Draymond Green: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7.5''
Khris Middleton: 6' 6.75'' / 6' 8.25''
Jimmy Butler: 6' 6'' / 6' 7.75''
Tobias Harris: 6' 6.5'' / 6' 7.75''
Kawhi Leonard: 6' 6'' / 6' 7''
Klay Thompson: 6' 5.75'' / 6' 7.25''
Danny Green: 6' 5.25'' / 6' 6.5''
James Harden: 6' 4'' / 6' 5.25''
James Johnson: 6' 7'' / 6' 7.75''

Because of the idiotic in shoes measurements NBA player heights have always been a joke. Players wear different thickness of shoes. Some players do continue to grow after the combine and others don't. Due to privacy issues particularly regarding weight do the players have to sign a release for the combine #s to be released. Hopefully the combine never gives in shoes heights again.

Combine heights are the most trustworthy as long as we look at the no shoes measurements. Once we have the combine #s if there is a combine we can know the actual heights of the draft picks.

[Rookie-Mistake]

Interesting..

I'm not a stats guy per se and I have only just started looking at YouTube videos of the guys other than Wiseman, ball and Edwards.

I don't mind his shot, reminds me of DLO..

I looked at his stats in the EuroCup and they're healthy man.. I get that we have a "point guard" but DLO can easily go catch and shoot for a bit... I don't know but I can't help but feel that with every single draft that players get picked high because of "consensus".

Random question.

Would drafting Killian Hayes be a mistake?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

IMO yes. A very big mistake at #1 overall. He's a PG which we don't need and he's not a good shooter.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

[Jedzz]

Okogie is only 6-4 on a tall hair day and he been playing some SF. Landry Shamet plays some backup SF minutes for Clippers behind Kawhi and Shamet is only 6-4. There are oodles of 6-6 players supposedly in this draft and any of them might be able to play SF here if they can prove some 3 and D and slashing skills. Of course it would be nice to find a tru 6'7 player with some length to wreck the role here.

The thing with Josh though is his 7ft wingspan. Not a lot of guys his height with that kind of length.

Right. Which is how a 6'4 player can handle it. But we talking about 6'6 and 6'7 players that are in this draft. A long list of them that can have 6'8 to 6'10 wingspans and be just as effective. Only these ones shoot well.

[shangrila]

Okogie is only 6-4 on a tall hair day and he been playing some SF. Landry Shamet plays some backup SF minutes for Clippers behind Kawhi and Shamet is only 6-4. There are oodles of 6-6 players supposedly in this draft and any of them might be able to play SF here if they can prove some 3 and D and slashing skills. Of course it would be nice to find a tru 6'7 player with some length to wreck the role here.

The thing with Josh though is his 7ft wingspan. Not a lot of guys his height with that kind of length.

Right. Which is how a 6'4 player can handle it. But we talking about 6'6 and 6'7 players that are in this draft. A long list of them that can have 6'8 to 6'10 wingspans and be just as effective. Only these ones shoot well.

I'm not sure I see the long list of them in this draft. Just going down Tankathon's mock looking at all the 6-6/7 guys you've got;

LaMelo Ball - poor shooter
Isaac Okoro - poor shooter
Devin Vassell - fits
Aaron Nesmith - fits but ?s about defence
Josh Green - average shooter
Leandro Bolmaro - poor shooter
Tyler Bey - fits but ?s about overall offence
Robert Woodard II - fits but ?s about shooting
Cassius Stanley - average shooter
Jordan Nwora - fits but ?s about athleticism
Abdoulaye N'Doye - fits with 43% from 3 surprisingly. Low attempts though. Might be worth investigating
Elijah Hughes - fits but ?s about defence
Kenyon Martin Jr - don't know. Straight from high school. Reports say he's a poor shooter though.

If you want to stretch it out to 6-8/9 guys who could project to play the 3 you can add;
Deni Avdija - average shooter
Saddiq Bey - fits but ?s overall
Patrick Williams - fits but raw overall
Jaden McDaniels - average shooter, raw overall
Paul Reed - more of a 4 but average shooter anyway

So with the added guys you've got 18, which I guess is about a 3rd of the draft. That said there's only 1 guy (Vassell) that looks like a surefire fit for what you want. Everyone else either lacks the shooting you want or has questions about the rest of their game.

[KGdaBom]

Some Deni Tweets.

When the first videos of Deni's form came out, I said I wanted to see how he looked shooting off movement. Looking good!

I repeat for the ____th time: buy the shot. https://t.co/poNGVwS91E

— Spencer (@SKPearlman) September 17, 2020
Read on Twitter

Added data point: for the entire season, Deni was 59/158 on 3s outside of final 6 sec (this is important bc he was often bailout option) and was 41/107 on C&S w/same time frame. He's not a bad a shooter like some make him out to be. https://t.co/9cF3WJJ37w

— Spencer (@SKPearlman) September 17, 2020
Read on Twitter

[Jedzz]

The thing with Josh though is his 7ft wingspan. Not a lot of guys his height with that kind of length.

Right. Which is how a 6'4 player can handle it. But we talking about 6'6 and 6'7 players that are in this draft. A long list of them that can have 6'8 to 6'10 wingspans and be just as effective. Only these ones shoot well.

I'm not sure I see the long list of them in this draft. Just going down Tankathon's mock looking at all the 6-6/7 guys you've got;

LaMelo Ball - poor shooter
Isaac Okoro - poor shooter
Devin Vassell - fits
Aaron Nesmith - fits but ?s about defence
Josh Green - average shooter
Leandro Bolmaro - poor shooter
Tyler Bey - fits but ?s about overall offence
Robert Woodard II - fits but ?s about shooting
Cassius Stanley - average shooter
Jordan Nwora - fits but ?s about athleticism
Abdoulaye N'Doye - fits with 43% from 3 surprisingly. Low attempts though. Might be worth investigating
Elijah Hughes - fits but ?s about defence
Kenyon Martin Jr - don't know. Straight from high school. Reports say he's a poor shooter though.

If you want to stretch it out to 6-8/9 guys who could project to play the 3 you can add;
Deni Avdija - average shooter
Saddiq Bey - fits but ?s overall
Patrick Williams - fits but raw overall
Jaden McDaniels - average shooter, raw overall
Paul Reed - more of a 4 but average shooter anyway

So with the added guys you've got 18, which I guess is about a 3rd of the draft. That said there's only 1 guy (Vassell) that looks like a surefire fit for what you want. Everyone else either lacks the shooting you want or has questions about the rest of their game.

That's not all of them.

Of the three shooters you did list, Saddiq Bey is a monster. He has every chance to develop into a defensive stud if his next team pushes him in that direction than any of the top 3 picks people are hyped and locked in on. Vassell already is known as a defensive natual. Nesmith is a highly competitive personality that will jump on developing defense when his coaches ask for it and show him the tricks of the trade. All these players are great shooters as well. Tyler Bey isn't a question on defense. He actually defended 4s in college more than anything and will likely be a 3 in NBA I hear.

A lot of these players are all focusing on offense in college because that's what gives them their best chance to get noticed, get drafted. I'm just getting sick of all the people saying...defense wasn't a plus for this guy in college...so we should overlook them when it's the one thing they didn't show enough of in college. Meanwhile Edwards should be a #1 overall simply because he may have enough size to maybe be talked into defense? All these built in ratings on these players getting copied all over the internet are all trash. Look at the players and leave a little room for the possibility they are more than we've seen so far. Defending doesn't take the kind of accuracy and concentration skills that shooting does. It just takes practice and effort, and length doesn't hurt.

[Jedzz]

Interesting..

I'm not a stats guy per se and I have only just started looking at YouTube videos of the guys other than Wiseman, ball and Edwards.

I don't mind his shot, reminds me of DLO..

I looked at his stats in the EuroCup and they're healthy man.. I get that we have a "point guard" but DLO can easily go catch and shoot for a bit... I don't know but I can't help but feel that with every single draft that players get picked high because of "consensus".

Random question.

Would drafting Killian Hayes be a mistake?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

IMO yes. A very big mistake at #1 overall. He's a PG which we don't need and he's not a good shooter.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

If the team wants a player with Point skills it should probably be Haliburton. He can certainly play point, or shooting guard, will have the height/length to switch higher if needed and once fills that wide frame might really be a force. He's another gifted vision/game IQ player only his shots go in. He ourthe countless other point guards in this draft that have game IQ and can shoot. Grant Riller is maybe between Lillard and CJ McCollum in height and can really ball.

There are so many in this draft it might pay to focus on the size guys early and then take your pick from the many left if you still want a guard with point skills later. Especially with how hype seems to be ignoring some great shooters.

[Nick K]

Anyone on here getting those Jonny Flynn vibes with Edwards? I've been watching some YouTube videos of both and see similarities.. stats look similar.. the hype is definitely there.. you could almost argue that if Flynn were in this draft, he would be top 3 consideration.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

NO! I see few similarities between the two. If there was one they both like to shoot 28 foot 3's. They really are very different.

[Nick K]

Random question.
Would drafting Killian Hayes be a mistake?

Nope. I think he can be our version of Jamal Murray, combo guard with shooting and passing. But I hope we can trade down and draft him at 4/5/6.

What would we do with D'Lo? D'Lo wants the ball in his hands.

[KGdaBom]

New Nickname for OO.
King Kong Woo!!

[shangrila]

That's not all of them.

Then by all means, feel free to list them. As I said I went through the Tankathon mock looking at all the guys in the height range you offered and even extended it out. If there's more then I didn't see them.

Of the three shooters you did list, Saddiq Bey is a monster. He has every chance to develop into a defensive stud if his next team pushes him in that direction than any of the top 3 picks people are hyped and locked in on.

He's got the chance but it's far from a guarantee. None of the statistics back it up and the eye test shows he's a little slow laterally. I do think he'll be solid for many years but that's far from monster territory. Interestingly he's remarkably similar to Rodney Hood coming out statistically and physically.

Vassell already is known as a defensive natual.

Of course.

Nesmith is a highly competitive personality that will jump on developing defense when his coaches ask for it and show him the tricks of the trade.

I don't know about that. I think he's got serious physical issues that will make it hard for him to become above average. I think he could be average though and assuming his shooting translates that's a solid guy to have coming off the bench.

All these players are great shooters as well.

In college, yeah. There's questions surrounding all of them translating to the league though.

Vassell - Shot is too high, dips over his head similar to Dieng's trebuchet shot. Needs to fix that as it can cause issues for him in terms of closeouts, let alone if he tries to get creative off the dribble.
S.Bey - He's got a hitch in his shot that concerns me. Kind of flicks his wrist outwards. Might not be an issue but I'm cautious.
Nesmith - His release needs to be quickened if he's going to have the same success in the NBA, especially since his driving game is nearly non-existent.

Tyler Bey isn't a question on defense. He actually defended 4s in college more than anything and will likely be a 3 in NBA I hear.

? I said there's questions about his OFFENCE, not defence. Obviously he's an elite defensive prospect, it's why he's being drafted at all. Offensively his shot is suspect due to low attempts and his game overall on that end is more reminiscent of someone 4-5 inches taller.

A lot of these players are all focusing on offense in college because that's what gives them their best chance to get noticed, get drafted.

That's possible but I find it hard to believe. There's plenty of defensive prospects ranked highly every year. Right now you've got guys like T.Bey or Okoro that are where they're mocked solely because of their defence. So if someone doesn't play defence or lacks the physical tools it needs to be held against them, same as any other aspect of their game. Obviously you need to contextualise things but that doesn't mean you ignore it completely. As a prospect I doubt guys just chuck defence out to focus on scoring. Especially in the modern NBA where defence is such a focus.

I'm just getting sick of all the people saying...defense wasn't a plus for this guy in college...so we should overlook them when it's the one thing they didn't show enough of in college. Meanwhile Edwards should be a #1 overall simply because he may have enough size to maybe be talked into defense?

This circles back to the context I mentioned earlier. Edwards is brought up as having potential defensively because, yes, he has the physical tools but also demonstrated the ability to lockdown when he's focused. Now that last part does raise a red flag as well and so that's the question you end up asking yourself as a team; can you get him engaged? It's not necessarily "can he play defence?"

If I contrast that with the opposite kind of prospect, Obi Toppin, I don't believe his physical tools give him much potential on the defensive end. So I do ignore him because, for us, we do need defence. If a guy can't defend right now but could with further development, I'm ok with that. If the guy never can be a meaningful defender then I don't want him. We just can't afford to surround Towns and DLo with poor defenders if the goal is to be successful.

All these built in ratings on these players getting copied all over the internet are all trash. Look at the players and leave a little room for the possibility they are more than we've seen so far.

Agreed, though for different reasons. Overall there's a consensus that the mainstream guys at least don't seem to want to go against. It's boring.

Defending doesn't take the kind of accuracy and concentration skills that shooting does. It just takes practice and effort, and length doesn't hurt.

Couldn't disagree more.

Defence takes knowing your assignments, knowing your system, developing/having good instincts, being able to read opponent's plays unfolding, etc. If effort was all it took there'd be far more elite defenders around.

[minimus]

Random question.
Would drafting Killian Hayes be a mistake?

Nope. I think he can be our version of Jamal Murray, combo guard with shooting and passing. But I hope we can trade down and draft him at 4/5/6.

What would we do with D'Lo? D'Lo wants the ball in his hands.

1) they both are comboguards
2) we need more than one playmaker

[minimus]

Watch on YouTube

If Okongwu can dribble and pass like that, I'd draft him even at #1. But I personally think that the closest player to Bam is Xavier Tillman. Call me crazy, but I think that in MIN, next to KAT in five-out system he might be our version of Draymond Green/Bam.

Watch on YouTube

[Jedzz]

Nesmith is a highly competitive personality that will jump on developing defense when his coaches ask for it and show him the tricks of the trade.

I don't know about that. I think he's got serious physical issues that will make it hard for him to become above average.

Is he missing a leg or something I don't know about?

[Jedzz]

Defending doesn't take the kind of accuracy and concentration skills that shooting does. It just takes practice and effort, and length doesn't hurt.

Couldn't disagree more.

Defence takes knowing your assignments, knowing your system, developing/having good instincts, being able to read opponent's plays unfolding, etc. If effort was all it took there'd be far more elite defenders around.

Did I say all it takes is effort? Why claim that's all I said? You even quoted more than that.

Where in there do I say they don't need game IQ or developing instincts and knowledge of their assignments? Where? What exactly do you think the Practice is for? Coaches teach them defense, they practice it, there by learning it and then it just comes down to effort on what they know how to do.

The ponit is that you can't simply coach shooting and expect efforts to shoot more to solve accuracy, concentration and focus problems in the heat of games. These aren't easily solved problems. If they were more vets would be 40% shooters. They aren't for a reason. It's difficult to gain and maintain this skill. Defense isn't anywhere near as hard to learn and maintain, especially for players with enough size for their role. But more than anything you can say about vets in the NBA, it comes down to choice and effort on D. That's why we get to see most of it in the playoffs and a couple heated games in the regular season and then otherwise not. If there was a useful metric of defense that we could equate with 40% shooting level, you would find it from players in the playoffs.

[KGdaBom]

Did I mention how waiting for the draft is pure agony? We have 2 months to wait starting today.
However, this is very much to our advantage. We will get a chance to perform due diligence on the potential picks. If it was held mid October maybe we wouldn't. We all have our ideas about which players are best, but my understanding is we will be able to meet with them all and at least do some drills. I don't know if that will just be solo drills or perhaps we can test them working out with our players. Does anybody know. We can actually measure their height and weight rather than going by the often fabricated numbers from the various sources.