Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

[homecourtloss]

The Goat tier is MJ and Kareem... That's it... LeBron is somewhere below with Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kobe, etc... Who's on the top of that list is probably subjective, but to me, LeBron, with his cherry picking Teams etc, isn't getting to the top of the mountain... Now, if he 3peats with the Lakers... I'll put him at the peak...

The underlined is just as subjective as the bolded.

[Brandon_Roy7]

Let me ask the older guys a simple question to end the MJ vs. Bron debate for good. OK, its a trick question.

Which stat stood out for you the most when thinking about MJ?

Dunk contest championship. But to add to this. What really stood out to me is MJ demolished I.T. Bird and magic before he even entered the league.

[SF_Warriors]

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

And yet people making these same arguments won't actually count the Celtics losses against MJ because they were in the first round, while counting the GSW losses against LeBron because they were in the Finals. How many times do we have to see this stupid 6/6 record parroted, as if the earlier rounds mean nothing? That's the problem I have with these MJ fans who probably weren't even watching basketball when he played-- the guy was phenomenal, maybe the greatest ever, but it's not like he didn't ever lose.

Bro people are in this thread literally bringing up how MJ was losing in the first round in his first few years without pippen...were they not?

So which one is it? Not fair to bring up lebron's finals record? Or not fair to bring up MJ's early playoff exits in his early years?

[JoeyLightYears]

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

And yet people making these same arguments won't actually count the Celtics losses against MJ because they were in the first round, while counting the GSW losses against LeBron because they were in the Finals. How many times do we have to see this stupid 6/6 record parroted, as if the earlier rounds mean nothing? That's the problem I have with these MJ fans who probably weren't even watching basketball when he played-- the guy was phenomenal, maybe the greatest ever, but it's not like he didn't ever lose.

Bro people are in this thread literally bringing up how MJ was losing in the first round in his first few years without pippen...were they not?

So which one is it? Not fair to bring up lebron's finals record? Or not fair to bring up MJ's early playoff exits in his early years?

Pretty sure I already responded to this but my point is that using Finals records as the end-all is a sure sign that someone either doesn't understand the NBA (and how difficult it is to win a title) or they are being disingenuous. What we should say is that LeBron has a record of 3/16 with 9/16 trips to the Finals. And this is very good (many franchises don't even have a single title in decades of competition and getting to the Finals for over half of your career is amazing). Jordan has a record (both Finals appearances and wins obviously) of 6/15 which is even better. We don't need to misrepresent the data by saying things like LeBron is 3/9 and Jordan is 6/6. That's disingenuous.

[Amares]

LeBron has been goat for 2 years now. Whether he wins or not changes nothing on his GOAT title. But adding the next title would help him of course, with the next all-time season he is going to be called clear GOAT słowly after this year. I dont see any arguments for Jordan at this point.

[OdomFan]

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

And yet people making these same arguments won't actually count the Celtics losses against MJ because they were in the first round, while counting the GSW losses against LeBron because they were in the Finals. How many times do we have to see this stupid 6/6 record parroted, as if the earlier rounds mean nothing? That's the problem I have with these MJ fans who probably weren't even watching basketball when he played-- the guy was phenomenal, maybe the greatest ever, but it's not like he didn't ever lose.

Well if the conversation topic is the Finals then of course they're going to mention MJs 6-0 vs Lebrons 3-6. Mentioning the first round makes absolutely no sense in that conversation.

People also don't mention Lebrons Cavs not making the playoffs at all in his first 2 seasons so it works both ways. MJs playoff history has it's flaws llike every other all time great, but when it comes down to it his has far less flaws than Lebrons, and he impacted the game far more in both the regular season and playoffs. Lebron has been given good teammates over the years but because of his play style, quite a bit of them that played better else where saw their productions go down when playing on his team. Also the fact that Jordan could play within a coaches system much better than Lebron has been able to do is a positive in Jordans favor.

[shi-woo]

Let me ask the older guys a simple question to end the MJ vs. Bron debate for good. OK, its a trick question.

Which stat stood out for you the most when thinking about MJ?

For me it's the fact that he won DPOTY while also leading the league in scoring. 35/6/6/3/2 on 54% shooting.

Facts. LeBron has never averaged 2 offensive rebounds a game for a season. He's only averaged more than 1 bpg twice, and 2 spg once. Those are all hustle stats and effort plays.

Jordan did the dirty work. Those have always been the stats that set him apart, especially when you take into account he was a guard

[jerok]

Pip and Grant 1987 is what Jordan got and he stuck with them until he made'm champions 3peat. Lebron is trading'em both.
Please, elaborate on Rodmans' impact a bit more, educate me with you informed opinion. Tell me about Bulls matching up league MVP Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp at PF with Rodman. Not that Dennis wasnt a phenomenal role player, he was, but Jordan didnt need his role players to do anything else but deliver on their specialities which they could do game in game out, no problem. The rest, the difficult part that takes the best of the best to deliver, he'd take care of regardless of specifics (system, no system, types of teamates, opponents, stage etc). A player like Rodman would be worthless to little Lebroni, for Lebroni needs a very particular supporting cast to win, he cant afford no Rodmans' that cant shoot or score.
Scottie became an all star in 1992, KA-BOOM! How you like that.
Nobody is downgrading anyone. Bulls werent supposed to even win one championship, let alone dominate basketball history. You dont get to throw MJ's success to his face as reason to take him down. Luc Longley...

Man you gotta stop embarrassing and contradicting yourself in the same post.

Pip and Grant 1987 is what Jordan got and he stuck with them until he made'm champions 3peat

Pip and Grant help Jordan win, how many rings did MJ win without Pip and Grant? Please explain and elaborate why MJs playoff record was 1-9 before getting Scottie?

Please, elaborate on Rodmans' impact a bit more, educate me with you informed opinion. Tell me about Bulls matching up league MVP Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp at PF with Rodman.

With a handle like "trueballer7", i find it amazing that someone has to explain what Dennis Rodman's impact is to that 2nd 3peat.
You dissed him for being matched up to Karl and Kemp? Only the 2 best players on those teams. Please, Kawhi and Iggy won Finals MVP matched up vs Bron.
Please elaborate how the league leaders in rebounds for every year during the 2nd 3peat and one of the games best defenders EVER, not have any impact on that bulls team, or any team for that matter? If Jordan, didn't need him why did he personally grab him from his hotel, in a different city when Dennis took an in season vacay?

Jordan didn't need his role players to do anything else but deliver on their specialities which they could do game in game out, no problem. The rest, the difficult part that takes the best of the best to deliver, he'd take care of regardless of specifics (system, no system, types of teamates, opponents, stage etc).

Jordan played in different systems before the triangle, please elaborate why he didn't get his teammates to deliver on their specialties to win multiple titles pre Scottie, Grant and Phil's System? Please explain why MJ only won with Scottie and Phil's system, if none of the specifics matter as you alluded.

Scottie became an all star in 1992, KA-BOOM! How you like that.

UMM.. Scottie was all star in 1990, HOW YOU LIKE THAT!?
Please elaborate and explain why you didn't know he was an all star in 1990.

Bulls werent supposed to even win one championship, let alone dominate basketball history.

What? team with the best player in the league, weren't supposed to win one championship? Any time you have the best player in the league, you're in the running to win a chip.

Like, I said, MJ is GOAT, no question. But he had help.
Some facts are lost because how in awe we were with those 90s Bulls.
Off course MJ gets the glory, he was the best player on that team. But that team was Stacked. He didn't need to leave, he had the most stacked team in the league.
Please don't make an ass of yourself by making uneducated blasphemous claims cause you hate Bron, and have your tongue inside Mj's ass.

[cursedsportsfan]

Imagine being called the goat with a ft % like that. Lmao. If you think hes the goat. Thats fine but someone will obviously take over him his goat status soon.

You know they're running out of things when ft % is getting brought up in goat status. Lmao

[Lalouie]

LeBron stans are insufferable. This is why people root against him.

not only that, most of them were born after 1990 so they have no perspective. it is impossible to talk about the breadth of something when you haven't lived through most of what you know nothing.

when i was little i thought the best qb in the nfl was billy wade, being a tot as i was and growing up in los angeles. my dad said it was johnny unitas who i never heard of. lebron stans remind me of me when i was a mere child

[michaelm]

And yet people making these same arguments won't actually count the Celtics losses against MJ because they were in the first round, while counting the GSW losses against LeBron because they were in the Finals. How many times do we have to see this stupid 6/6 record parroted, as if the earlier rounds mean nothing? That's the problem I have with these MJ fans who probably weren't even watching basketball when he played-- the guy was phenomenal, maybe the greatest ever, but it's not like he didn't ever lose.

Bro people are in this thread literally bringing up how MJ was losing in the first round in his first few years without pippen...were they not?

So which one is it? Not fair to bring up lebron's finals record? Or not fair to bring up MJ's early playoff exits in his early years?

Pretty sure I already responded to this but my point is that using Finals records as the end-all is a sure sign that someone either doesn't understand the NBA (and how difficult it is to win a title) or they are being disingenuous. What we should say is that LeBron has a record of 3/16 with 9/16 trips to the Finals. And this is very good (many franchises don't even have a single title in decades of competition and getting to the Finals for over half of your career is amazing). Jordan has a record (both Finals appearances and wins obviously) of 6/15 which is even better. We don't need to misrepresent the data by saying things like LeBron is 3/9 and Jordan is 6/6. That's disingenuous.

A dynasty was built around Jordan, including Pippen who developed next to him, no ifs, buts or maybes. If LeBron hasn’t had enough help as is claimed it is basically down to his own choices. If he wins 2 or 3 in his old age playing team ball with Davis and bringing other players through /building around the two of them then he gets into the conversation with Jordan for me.

[Lalouie]

• Lebron has been dominating the league for 13 seasons, every season (with the exception of the previous one) since 2006. 
• Jordan "only" did n,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,h clear-cut. 

*I'm bad arithmetic, corrected some numbers.

i'll try to explain where the "lebron is NOT the goat" fans are coming from.
it's simple really. he has too many flaws for a goat

while pro lebron fans gush all over themselves about his clear superior physical self and the numbers he has accrued, he is absolutely assailable because he has too many flaws for a wannabe goat. our goats should be as close to perfect as can be. it's like, you don't want a mustache on the mona lisa, an egg shell in your omelet. flawless is how goats SHOULD BE.

you can say what you want about lebron but you know damn well his has MANY flaws, too many for a goat. no reason to point them out, you know what they are and they are MANY. and among the list of all the goats lebron has THE MOST flaws in spite of his many many gifts.

that aside, if i have to go in for an operation i would want the best possible surgeon with the scalpel, and at the end of games there are several players i would want to entrust the ball ahead of lebron. lebron lovers readily admit this by replying "BUT lebron brought the team there". the thing is ALL GOATS carry their teams through games, that is their job. they just finish the job better than lebron.

[trueballer7]

Pip and Grant 1987 is what Jordan got and he stuck with them until he made'm champions 3peat. Lebron is trading'em both.
Please, elaborate on Rodmans' impact a bit more, educate me with you informed opinion. Tell me about Bulls matching up league MVP Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp at PF with Rodman. Not that Dennis wasnt a phenomenal role player, he was, but Jordan didnt need his role players to do anything else but deliver on their specialities which they could do game in game out, no problem. The rest, the difficult part that takes the best of the best to deliver, he'd take care of regardless of specifics (system, no system, types of teamates, opponents, stage etc). A player like Rodman would be worthless to little Lebroni, for Lebroni needs a very particular supporting cast to win, he cant afford no Rodmans' that cant shoot or score.
Scottie became an all star in 1992, KA-BOOM! How you like that.
Nobody is downgrading anyone. Bulls werent supposed to even win one championship, let alone dominate basketball history. You dont get to throw MJ's success to his face as reason to take him down. Luc Longley...

Man you gotta stop embarrassing and contradicting yourself in the same post.

Pip and Grant 1987 is what Jordan got and he stuck with them until he made'm champions 3peat

Pip and Grant help Jordan win, how many rings did MJ win without Pip and Grant? Please explain and elaborate why MJs playoff record was 1-9 before getting Scottie?

Please, elaborate on Rodmans' impact a bit more, educate me with you informed opinion. Tell me about Bulls matching up league MVP Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp at PF with Rodman.

With a handle like "trueballer7", i find it amazing that someone has to explain what Dennis Rodman's impact is to that 2nd 3peat.
You dissed him for being matched up to Karl and Kemp? Only the 2 best players on those teams. Please, Kawhi and Iggy won Finals MVP matched up vs Bron.
Please elaborate how the league leaders in rebounds for every year during the 2nd 3peat and one of the games best defenders EVER, not have any impact on that bulls team, or any team for that matter? If Jordan, didn't need him why did he personally grab him from his hotel, in a different city when Dennis took an in season vacay?

Jordan didn't need his role players to do anything else but deliver on their specialities which they could do game in game out, no problem. The rest, the difficult part that takes the best of the best to deliver, he'd take care of regardless of specifics (system, no system, types of teamates, opponents, stage etc).

Jordan played in different systems before the triangle, please elaborate why he didn't get his teammates to deliver on their specialties to win multiple titles pre Scottie, Grant and Phil's System? Please explain why MJ only won with Scottie and Phil's system, if none of the specifics matter as you alluded.

Scottie became an all star in 1992, KA-BOOM! How you like that.

UMM.. Scottie was all star in 1990, HOW YOU LIKE THAT!?
Please elaborate and explain why you didn't know he was an all star in 1990.

Bulls werent supposed to even win one championship, let alone dominate basketball history.

What? team with the best player in the league, weren't supposed to win one championship? Any time you have the best player in the league, you're in the running to win a chip.

Like, I said, MJ is GOAT, no question. But he had help.
Some facts are lost because how in awe we were with those 90s Bulls.
Off course MJ gets the glory, he was the best player on that team. But that team was Stacked. He didn't need to leave, he had the most stacked team in the league.
Please don't make an ass of yourself by making uneducated blasphemous claims cause you hate Bron, and have your tongue inside Mj's ass.

You are rather obtuse, which isnt your fault so I dont mind the passionate attack.
The question was what would Lebron do if he had the same teamates and coach as Jordan. You keep blathering about Grant and Pippen helping Jordan and Rodman having impact and so on and so forth, things that are completely irrelevant. Let me put it the most simple humanoid lingua possible, Grant, Pippen, Rodman, Phil were all great contributors to the Bulls' success, their impact was palpable, and Lebron would have traded all of them as he's done with anyone of analogous status in the past.
The Bulls werent supposed to win any chips, thats how people perceived them back then, the rest is worthless talk. Anyone can visit old sources and find out. Krause himself thought the Blazers would be the next multi champions after the Pistons. Before 1989 they werent even supposed to go past the Cavs.
Bulls won the chip in 1991. Pippen wasnt an all-star.

[WestGOAT]

That's all she wrote pretty much.

One of the most unlikable players ever, but it's undeniable LeBron is the GOAT.

[Triple7]

Hell No!!! Top 5? maybe, but that 6 finals losses won’t just magically disappear if he wins another one.

[LAKESHOW]

6 finals losses? Kidding me? Thats the take away? 10 is an astronomical number. Lets say Jordan stays on in the mid 90s, for those 2 finals, and doesn't play baseball. Thats still 8! Forget wins and losses, you can't just sweep under the rug, 10. THATS TEN appearances in the Finals. Thats mind boggling. We have a guy who did that, Kareem, but dude played almost 20 years and had all time records, a Legend. Another guy? Bill Russell. You don't put your name next to these types of players like Kareem or Russell unless an Epic accomplishment happens

[God Squad]

MJ is and for the considerable future be the GOAT. What LeBron has done is play himself into the conversation and #2 spot by a large margin IMO.

[WestGOAT]

:lol:

IF.

The word you're looking for is 'if'

I damn know well the difference between "when" and "if".

Lakers will handle the Nuggets which is the real finals this year.

Yup.

Lakers gonna 4-0 the Heat.

Lebron gonna be crowned the GOAT (I don't even like him but at this point it's pretty much undeniable).

ESPN gonna milk this victory as much as they can and push the narrative Lakers won for Kobe. Nauseating.

[letskissbro]

He's been the GOAT since 2017

[C-Melo Man]

Right now I have LeBron James at #3 for Greatest of All-Time behind Michael Jordan & Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. For me, he will surpass KAJ if he wins two more titles & Finals MVPs. To surpass MJ, he has to win more NBA titles (7-8) & Finals MVPs as his 3-6 Finals record as of right now including that disastrous 2011 NBA Finals vs. the Dallas Mavericks still sticks out to me to keep him from being the GOAT. He needs to have above a .500 record in Finals appearances to compete with Jordan's 6-0 and Kareem's 6-4.