Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[Ice Man]

It's threads like this that make me unable to discuss LeBron on the Bulls board, because all Bulls fans detest LeBron and get irrational, becuase of threads like this.

Personally, I don't find it useful to compare guys across different generations. Kareem was the greatest player of the Seventies. Was he better than MIke? I dunno, they never played against each other when both were prime. And then Mike never played against LeBron, period.

The way I look at it is Kareem led to Mike and MIke led to LeBron. In another 10 or 15 years, we'll know who the next guy in the chain will be.

[dhsilv2]

> NBA defenders are at their toughest/best right now
> Teams are scoring at a higher rate and efficiency than anytime in the past ~50 years

Pick one.

But it's both...

It isn't really both...it is relatively easy nowadays to score driving to the hoop. I am no Jordan jocker but when Jordan played, there was still plenty of teams playing big front lines and the refs were not calling all of the fouls on players like Charles Oakley. Celtics were bigger than most teams but had a starting lineup of 2 6"4 guards, a 6"9 SF, a 6-10 PF and a 7ft center.

Given the rules back then and the game not having evolved to favor the 3, driving to the hoop against many teams was very difficult.

When you watch Jordan in most of his finals, you get a misleading portrait of what he really faced in the mid to late 80's especially. Despite Jordan's awesome leaping ability, incredible quickess and really good speed, he was like a ballerina in how he darted to the hoop.

For a 6"5 player with the ball in his hands, the young Jordan before the 90's at least could change directions in like the basketball version of Barry Sanders. He could weave in between players really fast. Guy was like a 6"5 ballerina at times.

When Jordan scored a ton of points against Celtics in playoffs, I will be the first to admit Celtics didn't prioritize him that much in 86 and certainly didn't go out and try to trade for a quicker guard like Sydney Moncrief. But how he was moving to get quite a few 6-10 ft shots at various angles was ridiculously impressive. He wasn't going to get many dunks against the Celtics big front line since paint was too congested but his incredible maneuverability to go alongside his jumping ability, allowed him to get shots off that even Kobe/Wade would have struggled to come close to matching. And Kobe/Wade probably two of the best after Jordan of making moves like Jordan was doing routinely.

If the refs are a reason you think defense is or isn't better, then you're wrong. Defense is how team's plan around the rules. The rules don't shift defense or offense. They shift results, of course. Today we have better offensive systems than ever before AND we have better defensive systems. It's not debatable.

[DrCoach]

Jordan stans throw around 6-0 like it implies he never lost. He played like 15 damn season lmfaoooooo

And you cant read

6-0 in FINALS

Yeah, because he couldn't get there until all his competition washed away and his GM had built an all star team.

1-9 PLAYOFF RECORD WITHOUT PIPPEN

Go check all the Superstar HOF players who dont have a ring because of Jordan


All star team? Luc Longley? Bill Wennington? Jordan never even had a Real PG or Center

Please see GSW for a real allstar team

[Dino353]

People will always say Jordan but I'd take LeBron, LeBron is faster,stronger,and has better court-vision. I was never wowed away by anything Jordan did, LeBron is showtime.

because you were hiding your eyes while he was doing things to your Knicks

Space Jam, Hanes, Coca-Cola, and McDonald's commercials made Michael Jordan it was primarily propaganda which I never bought into. Jordan got all the glamor in the 90's but he is not the GOAT. I would take Magic and LeBron over him.

[mtron32]

People will always say Jordan but I'd take LeBron, LeBron is faster,stronger,and has better court-vision. I was never wowed away by anything Jordan did, LeBron is showtime.

because you were hiding your eyes while he was doing things to your Knicks

Space Jam, Hanes, Coca-Cola, and McDonald's commercials made Michael Jordan it was primarily propaganda which I never bought into. Jordan got all the glamor in the 90's but he is not the GOAT. I would take Magic and LeBron over him.

...That's cool, I love Magic and LeBron too

[kuclas]

No.

MJ without Pippen:
5 seasons
5 losing seasons
1-9 playoff record


MJ never faced an athletic perimeter defender his size in his prime. He was dominating smaller players like Starks, Hornacek, Byron Scott, Hersey Hawkins, Dan Majerle. LeBron was facing the greatest perimeter defensive team in the finals on a yearly basis. Draymond, KD, Iggy, and Klay is a stacked defensive lineup. MJ never faced a defender as tough as one of those, with the exception of Payton who shut him down, let alone 4 on the same team. Not to mention beasts like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion too.

MJ got to the free throw line 10 iTunes a game with a lot rougher defense hacking away and no fouls getting called like today’s nba.

He’s be getting to the free throw line 20 times a game. So he would be like James harden PLUS ALL
NBA DEFENSE.

Sounds like MJ would be A ok if he had Harden offensive game plus all word defense.

Jordan was already 32/33 years old when he was facing Gary Payton. It was pretty much impossible to stop Jordan 1986-1993 ages 23-30.

[Heej]

Imagine thinking Jordan wasn't already just gifted foul calls for getting breathed on. His FTA ain't goin up much at all in this era lol he already got the biggest superstar whistle in NBA history off little baby ticky tack fouls. I've done the film study myself and watched full games on YouTube of some of the Pistons series' he got A TON of soft fouls lol. MFs really just be lying to you about Jordan lol

[kuclas]

Jordan is a better scorer than Lebron

Jordan better defender than Lebron

He’s better at shooting free throws as well

Jordan has better low post game than Lebron

Only thing Lebron does better than Jordan
1. Passing
2. Flopping

Jordan wins 4-2 in this argument. It’s really 4-1 since flipping is not an actual part of basketball.

Basketball 101
Offensive
Defense
Passing
Shooting

Lebron only excels at one thing better than Jordan.

[DrCoach]

Jordan is a better scorer than Lebron

Jordan better defender than Lebron

He’s better at shooting free throws as well

Jordan has better low post game than Lebron

Only thing Lebron does better than Jordan
1. Passing
2. Flopping

Jordan wins 4-2 in this argument. It’s really 4-1 since flipping is not an actual part of basketball.

Basketball 101
Offensive
Defense
Passing
Shooting

Lebron only excels at one thing better than Jordan.

You forgot Jordans most important quality, hes clutch and a killer

[NoStatsGuy]

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

that doesnt even answer the question nor contributes to that question in any way.

MJ homers gave you an and1.

Is michael actually better at basketball? The question still stands you didnt bring an argument.

MJ had better intangibles like killer instinct, and everything that already has been named. But LeBron is a better basketball player i have no doubt in my mind. who the goat is depends totally on the one who judges it and how he values certain skills in a bball player / goat

[bwgood77]

I hate these arguments, and don't understand the need for all time rankings because depending on critieria used, you'd have different results.

However, I think LeBron is more skilled, but Jordan had more competitiveness, and dug deeper and his refuse to lose/will to win in big games, and clutch play in just the biggest of moments, was at a much higher level. It was really uncanny how he'd do it.

He also never kept teaming up with ever top 10 players while playing. Pippen was great, but there were a lot of big stars back then.

[bwgood77]

It's threads like this that make me unable to discuss LeBron on the Bulls board, because all Bulls fans detest LeBron and get irrational, becuase of threads like this.

Personally, I don't find it useful to compare guys across different generations. Kareem was the greatest player of the Seventies. Was he better than MIke? I dunno, they never played against each other when both were prime. And then Mike never played against LeBron, period.

The way I look at it is Kareem led to Mike and MIke led to LeBron. In another 10 or 15 years, we'll know who the next guy in the chain will be.

This is how I see it, and I have always said if you have to rank guys, Kareem would have a great case of GOAT. As for leading through eras, I would also add Bird and Magic for the 80s.

I think it depends on criteria too...if longevity is a big part of the equation, it really helps Kareem and LeBron. If pure peak is, I think Bird would really be up there.

[Heej]

I hate these arguments, and don't understand the need for all time rankings because depending on critieria used, you'd have different results.

However, I think LeBron is more skilled, but Jordan had more competitiveness, and dug deeper and his refuse to lose/will to win in big games, and clutch play in just the biggest of moments, was at a much higher level. It was really uncanny how he'd do it.

He also never kept teaming up with ever top 10 players while playing. Pippen was great, but there were a lot of big stars back then.

It's funny you say that and look at both their elimination game and Game 7 stats and you see LeBron is in a class of his own when he digs in. I do however think Jordan's personality typing allowed him to go super Saiyan more often vs LeBron who's a bit of a procrastinator

[ALPHAandOMEGA]

Just a troll thread...everyone older than 12 knows Jordan>QueenJames

[mtron32]

It's threads like this that make me unable to discuss LeBron on the Bulls board, because all Bulls fans detest LeBron and get irrational, becuase of threads like this.

Personally, I don't find it useful to compare guys across different generations. Kareem was the greatest player of the Seventies. Was he better than MIke? I dunno, they never played against each other when both were prime. And then Mike never played against LeBron, period.

The way I look at it is Kareem led to Mike and MIke led to LeBron. In another 10 or 15 years, we'll know who the next guy in the chain will be.

This is how I see it, and I have always said if you have to rank guys, Kareem would have a great case of GOAT. As for leading through eras, I would also add Bird and Magic for the 80s.

I think it depends on criteria too...if longevity is a big part of the equation, it really helps Kareem and LeBron. If pure peak is, I think Bird would really be up there.

Exactly, it's like the Avatar. in a few years we get to have another one, just don't know which team he'll be on just yet.

[LivingLegend]

Jordan never had a choke job worse than 2011 LeBron

He got beat 3x in the first round of the playoffs. That alone is worse than losing in the finals.

[LivingLegend]

He couldn't choke because there was no expectation of him other to get dunked on by the Pistons until Pippen came around. That's all anyone knew him for.

I also have a beef when people compare MJ/LeBron that people only reference the same 6 years of MJs career and compare that to the entirety of LeBrons 17 year NBA career.

No mention of how MJ got beat multiple times over before Pippen showed up, no mention of how he didnt accomplish anything after he went to the Wizards. Just keep focusing on that prime cut 6 year stretch while comparing it to LeBron start to finish 17 years.

[benson13]

Every team Jordan beat in the Finals was better than 2011 Mavericks. Like literally, there are six teams who would have been NBA champs right now if they had just existed in the 2010-2011 season.

Nice troll thread though.

that doesnt even answer the question nor contributes to that question in any way.

MJ homers gave you an and1.

Is michael actually better at basketball? The question still stands you didnt bring an argument.

MJ had better intangibles like killer instinct, and everything that already has been named. But LeBron is a better basketball player i have no doubt in my mind. who the goat is depends totally on the one who judges it and how he values certain skills in a bball player / goat

Actually it was a response to a dumb thread, and it highlights an awful truth that even the biggest LeBron homer has to perform mental gymnastics to deal with.

[bwgood77]

Jordan never had a choke job worse than 2011 LeBron

He got beat 3x in the first round of the playoffs. That alone is worse than losing in the finals.

And LeBron didn't even make the playoffs 3x...twice even having a losing record. That alone is worse than ever getting beat in the first round of the playoffs.

[Johnny Bball]

Youngsters like the OP get more arrogant by the day about what they think they know.