Turner to the Celtics - How?

[basketballwacko2]

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

Ok now this post I have a real problem with. You started this thread wanting Turner traded to the Celtics remember! Now you want to downplay the guy like he's some kind of low end Manute Bol clone. You come to me wanting to buy my car and then start telling me that it's a pile of junk, if so why do you want it.

I dug into him more since starting the thread.

I do think that as long as Turner is paired with Sabonis, he will never put up as good of numbers as he can elsewhere. And because of that perhaps there is some perceived value in potential. But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

It's not all about stats.

[100proof]

Ok now this post I have a real problem with. You started this thread wanting Turner traded to the Celtics remember! Now you want to downplay the guy like he's some kind of low end Manute Bol clone. You come to me wanting to buy my car and then start telling me that it's a pile of junk, if so why do you want it.

I dug into him more since starting the thread.

I do think that as long as Turner is paired with Sabonis, he will never put up as good of numbers as he can elsewhere. And because of that perhaps there is some perceived value in potential. But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

It's not all about stats.

I agree, in fact I implied that he would most likely put up better numbers paired with someone else.

But Stats are also a very telling thing. OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP do not favor Turner, and generally, those are not statistics that get "skewed"

[djFan71]

yeah, even though you said it like 6 times, I wasn't thinking about filling the roster spots, just the trade balance. 7th time's a charm, though. Thanks for the persistence, lol.

Haha! No worries at all! It seemed like you understood the money was tight, but thinking about the roster spots after a big consolidation trade is sometimes hard to picture too.

This is what I call the "Business of Basketball." If you're consolidating and saving money it's one thing. If you're taking on more money and putting yourself in the tax then each of those roster spots is costing you 2X to fill. I'd rather stand pat on what I have sign Justin Holiday to an MLE deal and play 30 games so I can see what I've got. Then if it's dysfunctional start thinking about what to do.

Yeah, I'm Rain Main about it with the Cs, but with other teams I tend to not put in the work quite as much beyond the bottom line of the trade. Which is why it's great when you can interact with other teams' fans and they set you straight.

[pacers33granger]

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

Ok now this post I have a real problem with. You started this thread wanting Turner traded to the Celtics remember! Now you want to downplay the guy like he's some kind of low end Manute Bol clone. You come to me wanting to buy my car and then start telling me that it's a pile of junk, if so why do you want it.

I dug into him more since starting the thread.

I do think that as long as Turner is paired with Sabonis, he will never put up as good of numbers as he can elsewhere. And because of that perhaps there is some perceived value in potential. But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

I think it was pointed out earlier but his ability to switch has become very very good, if not elite. He's a great teammate and should be a leader for any team he's on. He's the most vocal of our defenders and truly anchors our defense. Our defense will be at least decent with Burke running it, but wouldn't be near what it is without Turner. Honestly, if Vic isn't healthy, he's the only guy I'd consider more than ok at defense in our starting lineup.

There's also evidence that his offensive struggles are related to having a poor offensive coach who asked him to change and sacrifice far too often. As an example, he worked with Mchale on post moves one off-season and then gets asked to be a stretch big in camp. It's happened to him several times in his young career and he could benefit from a more clear/consistent directive.

And the big thing for Indy fans is we've seen him make large strides (pun intended) in certain areas, showing he's willing to put in the work. The guy couldn't really run at texas and in 5 years is successfully defending guards on the perimeter. So we hope he can continue to progress.

[patman66]

Sigh. If this is your takeaway, then you’re just not engaging responsibly. I’m sorry you think that’s how we’re responding, instead of something realistic of “we don’t love trading Turner for a bunch of smaller pieces” or “we can’t afford to deal Turner for Hayward due to how the salary structure would have to work”. But, if you’d like to respond genuinely and discuss fairly, we’ll be here.

I am engaging responsibly. It was just a dig, making light of a 7 page discussion. Please don't be so sanctimonious.

If that was an attempt and sarcasm that was a poorly executed move.

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a dig making light of 7 pages of arguing about the feasibility of something occurring that we have no control over.

[Scoot McGroot]

I am engaging responsibly. It was just a dig, making light of a 7 page discussion. Please don't be so sanctimonious.

If that was an attempt and sarcasm that was a poorly executed move.

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a dig making light of 7 pages of arguing about the feasibility of something occurring that we have no control over.

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

[Scoot McGroot]

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

Ok now this post I have a real problem with. You started this thread wanting Turner traded to the Celtics remember! Now you want to downplay the guy like he's some kind of low end Manute Bol clone. You come to me wanting to buy my car and then start telling me that it's a pile of junk, if so why do you want it.

I dug into him more since starting the thread.

I do think that as long as Turner is paired with Sabonis, he will never put up as good of numbers as he can elsewhere. And because of that perhaps there is some perceived value in potential. But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

Oh, we agree. The two succeeding together requires some sacrifice from each of them, moreso from Turner. Statistically speaking, his numbers look average, other than his shot blocking. In reality, we see him clean up defensive messes from being surrounded most of the season by Sabonis, Warren, and Lamb, all guys that were average at best on defense for much of the season (Warren turned out to be the best defender of the 3 by the end of the season). And it required a TON of work on Turner to help the team look ok defensively, let alone good defensively. The numbers might not show, but for most of the season, we only had two good defenders in Turner and Justin Holiday.

[basketballwacko2]

If that was an attempt and sarcasm that was a poorly executed move.

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a dig making light of 7 pages of arguing about the feasibility of something occurring that we have no control over.

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

I've been on this site since 2002, that's more than 18 years, longer than some posters have been alive I'll guess. If you hang around here long enough you can learn a lot. When I started I barely knew the rules on trading, now I know a fair bit about the CBA and team building. The Real NBA is not a video game, you can't just swap guys out and some times guys are better for one team than they'd be for any other team. I'm not talking about the great players like Harden or GA, LBJ or Kahwi Leonard, but when a team has a weak spot you can't just delete one of their best players at that spot and add a guy at another spot even if he's good. You end up with an unbalanced team.

There is no one on this site more capable of ripping people than I am, I have to remind myself all the time not to do it. So when when our little friend patman66 wants to get snippy I just laugh at him and let it go.

[Scoot McGroot]

There's also evidence that his offensive struggles are related to having a poor offensive coach who asked him to change and sacrifice far too often. As an example, he worked with Mchale on post moves one off-season and then gets asked to be a stretch big in camp. It's happened to him several times in his young career and he could benefit from a more clear/consistent directive.

This offseason. He was sent home after last season with the staff asking him to work on his post moves on the summer and plan on playing the 5, which he did. Then, when he arrived for camp, the team asked him to slim down and play on the perimeter as the 4 on offense. We really should've seen this as a much bigger red flag when it came to McMillan's development/coaching.

[Wizop]

But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

remember though on offense the coach had him out at the arc much of the time. the put him out of position for offensive rebounds and put Sabonis in the post where he did rebound.

[Spin Move]

But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

remember though on offense the coach had him out at the arc much of the time. the put him out of position for offensive rebounds and put Sabonis in the post where he did rebound.

His defensive rebounding rate is still below average for a big

[Scoot McGroot]

But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.

remember though on offense the coach had him out at the arc much of the time. the put him out of position for offensive rebounds and put Sabonis in the post where he did rebound.

His defensive rebounding rate is still below average for a big

Some of it is he's a big time shot attacker, so even when he doesn't block shots, he alters a lot more. The other part is that he's played with guys who love hunting and snagging rebounds. The last and most important part that we can agree on, is that he's not a hungry rebounder overall.

[patman66]

If that was an attempt and sarcasm that was a poorly executed move.

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a dig making light of 7 pages of arguing about the feasibility of something occurring that we have no control over.

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

Because i don't think of a forum where "we discuss and learn" is not a altar where levity is forbidden.

[patman66]

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a dig making light of 7 pages of arguing about the feasibility of something occurring that we have no control over.

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

I've been on this site since 2002, that's more than 18 years, longer than some posters have been alive I'll guess. If you hang around here long enough you can learn a lot. When I started I barely knew the rules on trading, now I know a fair bit about the CBA and team building. The Real NBA is not a video game, you can't just swap guys out and some times guys are better for one team than they'd be for any other team. I'm not talking about the great players like Harden or GA, LBJ or Kahwi Leonard, but when a team has a weak spot you can't just delete one of their best players at that spot and add a guy at another spot even if he's good. You end up with an unbalanced team.

There is no one on this site more capable of ripping people than I am, I have to remind myself all the time not to do it. So when when our little friend patman66 wants to get snippy I just laugh at him and let it go.

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

[Wizop]

His defensive rebounding rate is still below average for a big

you could say below average rebounder about the whole team except Sabonis. I'd rather hope new coaches will improve those stats than ship out players.we can revisit this midseason.

[Scoot McGroot]

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a dig making light of 7 pages of arguing about the feasibility of something occurring that we have no control over.

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

Because i don't think of a forum where "we discuss and learn" is not a altar where levity is forbidden.

But rather, you think it's one where discussion should be insulted with overexaggeration?

Levity and humor is fine. And if you just have a bad sense of humor or just aren't funny, but you tried, or just really missed, that's cool. But if, deep down, you think that anyone disagreeing with you should just be insulted as if they're trying to paint they're player as one of the greatest players of all time, maybe re-assess, is all.

[Scoot McGroot]

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

I've been on this site since 2002, that's more than 18 years, longer than some posters have been alive I'll guess. If you hang around here long enough you can learn a lot. When I started I barely knew the rules on trading, now I know a fair bit about the CBA and team building. The Real NBA is not a video game, you can't just swap guys out and some times guys are better for one team than they'd be for any other team. I'm not talking about the great players like Harden or GA, LBJ or Kahwi Leonard, but when a team has a weak spot you can't just delete one of their best players at that spot and add a guy at another spot even if he's good. You end up with an unbalanced team.

There is no one on this site more capable of ripping people than I am, I have to remind myself all the time not to do it. So when when our little friend patman66 wants to get snippy I just laugh at him and let it go.

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Yeah, it is. And a touch over the line, in all fairness.

[patman66]

His defensive rebounding rate is still below average for a big

you could say below average rebounder about the whole team except Sabonis. I'd rather hope new coaches will improve those stats than ship out players.we can revisit this midseason.

As A new coach I might not have personnel control but you have to give him time for him to find out what works and what doesn't before making moves, unless he is coming from a team an he want to bring his player with him.

[Wizop]

As A new coach ... you have to give him time for him to find out what works and what doesn't before making moves

and I hope that's agreed in the interview process as I don't want to hire anyone who demands roster changes before trying to find out what works.

[patman66]

As A new coach ... you have to give him time for him to find out what works and what doesn't before making moves

and I hope that's agreed in the interview process as I don't want to hire anyone who demands roster changes before trying to find out what works.

Agreed, unless he has had a player in the past and can't work with him, but something like that has to be addressed beforehand. I am sure the potential coach has been asked to give his opinion of the team as seen from a distance and how those players fit his system or how he plans to utilize their strengths or minimize weaknesses. tough interview when the guy who put together the team is the guy interviewing you!