Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[The4thHorseman]

Lebron stans using Pippen as an argument against MJ is laughable. Was Pippen even considered a top 5 player during the title runs ? Maybe not even top 10 for most of those. I remember him saying when he won All-Star MVP during '94 that people though he won't make the game without MJ. So Lebron was not able to convince a top 5 player join him in Cleveland and had to go ring chase all this time ? What a loser.

Pippen was All-NBA on both sides of the ball for every title run except in 1991 when he was All-Defensive that year. In the 1991 Finals he outscored Magic even though Pip was second option on offense and played smothering defense.

Better question is, did MJ ever face an opposing 2nd option that was a better all around player than Pippen??

Him being All-NBA probably still had something to do with playing with MJ and winning. Just looking at stats shows how much better D was played at the time, because offensively he was nothing special during 93' when they beat my Suns. Just comparing him with someone like Oubre he was better at assists and nothing else though being 27 at the time while I'm comparing with a 24yo KO.

Uh, no it didn't. Pippen was a great player who finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1994, was 1 bad call away in game 7 of making the ECF and that was done WITHOUT MJ. That was done with him never being 1st option before, nor looked as a leader until then.

He was that good.

[Huffman]

Could you see Jordan acting like this against the Bad Boy Detroit Pistons or Pat Riley's Knicks?

Watch on YouTube

I know the officiating is different today but Lebron is such a diva.

I don't see the longevity argument in favor of Lebron. As physically imposing as Lebron is, he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality that Jordan did and maintained his level of play. Players last longer today because the game is more about speed and finesse which were Jordan true strengths. Jordan made himself stronger to endure the punishment that existed in the 90's NBA. Jordan also came back at 40 to play a couple more years and he was still better than most players half his age.

The Pippen argument is BS too. Pippen became the player he was by playing with Jordan and against him in practice every day.

Name one guy that became a star playing with Lebron. Davis, Kyrie, and Wade were already stars. Bosh and Love actually regressed as players.

Basically, Lebron is a great player that had to stack his team and set franchises back to win titles. He did it twice in Cleveland and once to Miami. He'll do the same to the Lakers too.

Can you show us some of the many examples of MJ taking all these vicious hits and hardcore physicality that he was on the receiving end of that LeBron wouldn't be able to handle like you said?

Thanks.

So since Pippen turned out to be so good because of MJ, why didn't MJ make more teammates into Pippen type players who became All-NBA players on both sides of the court? Why not turn Brad Sellers or Craig Hodges into great players like MJ allegedly did for Pippen?

Watch on YouTube

That took all of 30 seconds to find.

Pippen, Horace Grant, and Toni Kukoc were all rookies with Jordan and they all turned out to be damn good players. Lebron would have demanded they get traded for his buddies.

Any other questions?

[sunsbg]

Pippen was All-NBA on both sides of the ball for every title run except in 1991 when he was All-Defensive that year. In the 1991 Finals he outscored Magic even though Pip was second option on offense and played smothering defense.

Better question is, did MJ ever face an opposing 2nd option that was a better all around player than Pippen??

Him being All-NBA probably still had something to do with playing with MJ and winning. Just looking at stats shows how much better D was played at the time, because offensively he was nothing special during 93' when they beat my Suns. Just comparing him with someone like Oubre he was better at assists and nothing else though being 27 at the time while I'm comparing with a 24yo KO.

Uh, no it didn't. Pippen was a great player who finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1994, was 1 bad call away in game 7 of making the ECF and that was done WITHOUT MJ. That was done with him never being 1st option before, nor looked as a leader until then.

He was that good.

Obviously I'm not talking about '94 as MJ was not playing at the time. Still a good '94 team, it was not only Scottie. While he was a great player his scoring numbers are comparable to Oubre's in '93, check for yourself. As I said has more to do with the era, but still...

[KyletheDingbat]

Game 7 crunch time, Kawhi took the ball on the break and had one defender between him and the basket, and another defender on the wing. Kawhi couldn't beat the first defender, did a slow euro, and tossed the ball up with one hand, brick. Kawhi's patterned his game in large part off of MJ, and it's easy to see the similarities. But MJ in that situation is not getting stopped. He's blowing past that first defender and laying it up, dunking, or getting fouled. The discrepancy in explosiveness is huge.

As far as Lebron, I feel you can just watch the two of them play and understand who's better. Jordan just plays better. He shoots the ball right - you could teach a kid fundamentals based on MJ's shot. You don't want to teach them Lebron's shot. Jordan dribbles better, gets lower. He's better at the overall fundamentals of the game. As much as Lebron's basketball IQ is heralded, I think Jordan thought the game better. He could dominate every possession with the ball in his hands, but knew he could be more effective if he didn't. I do think Jordan in Lebron's situation would have won more because of his mastery of the game.

Lebron is unreal too. His passes from the top of the key or out of the post are probably as devastating as Kareem's sky hook. To me that's what I'll remember most about his game. His spin move in the lane in punishing. He's so good that he seems to have phased out some dominant parts of his game and remains the best player. Remember when he used to do that running one handed banker from the left side? I never see him do that now, but he was great at it. In the playoffs we're starting to see the separation between him and everyone else in the game, and he's 35.

[otwok]

I also have a beef when people compare MJ/LeBron that people only reference the same 6 years of MJs career and compare that to the entirety of LeBrons 17 year NBA career.

No mention of how MJ got beat multiple times over before Pippen showed up, no mention of how he didnt accomplish anything after he went to the Wizards. Just keep focusing on that prime cut 6 year stretch while comparing it to LeBron start to finish 17 years.

Yeah Jordan should have just left and forced his way and joined Bird and Michael etc., or magic worthy and Kareem and formed his own super team like James would have. Then he could move to the pistons. And then to the jazz. And just have won 15 titles by burning through their assets for instant gratification, like a virus.

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

At age of the 22 Pippen and Boobie Gibson had the same stats. And what free agents came to play with Jordan? They didn't have any major free agent acquisitions while Jordan was there. And prior to Jordan being drafted, the Bulls weren't exactly a powerhouse. They were the joke of the NBA.

Here are the best years of the Lebrons teammates:
Dwyane Wade (2010-2011) - 25.5 pts/6.4 reb/4.4 ast
Chris Bosh (2010-2011) - 18.7/8.3/1.9
Kyrie Irving (2016-2017) - 25.2/2.5/5.8
Anthony Davis (2019-2020) - 26.1-9.3-3.2

Here is Jordans:
Scottie Pippen (1991-1992): 21/7.7/7
Horace Grant (1991-1992): 14.2/10/2.7

The only Active All-Star Jordan ever played with was Scottie Pippen. For Lebron, that list is a bit bigger. So super teams - yea.

[lamscott]

Just look at free throws.

[Johnny Bball]

I also have a beef when people compare MJ/LeBron that people only reference the same 6 years of MJs career and compare that to the entirety of LeBrons 17 year NBA career.

No mention of how MJ got beat multiple times over before Pippen showed up, no mention of how he didnt accomplish anything after he went to the Wizards. Just keep focusing on that prime cut 6 year stretch while comparing it to LeBron start to finish 17 years.

Yeah Jordan should have just left and forced his way and joined Bird and Michael etc., or magic worthy and Kareem and formed his own super team like James would have. Then he could move to the pistons. And then to the jazz. And just have won 15 titles by burning through their assets for instant gratification, like a virus.

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

First off, we were talking about the 80's and early 90's... secondly... lol that's a complete joke bud.

I'm sure you were around to remember it too since free agency, the cap etc. wasn't the same at all and there was literally no big signings to the Bulls in the 90's after they won.

Why do you guys even talk like you know, when you don't even know and obviously weren't even alive or weren't even watching.

[The4thHorseman]

Could you see Jordan acting like this against the Bad Boy Detroit Pistons or Pat Riley's Knicks?

Watch on YouTube

I know the officiating is different today but Lebron is such a diva.

I don't see the longevity argument in favor of Lebron. As physically imposing as Lebron is, he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality that Jordan did and maintained his level of play. Players last longer today because the game is more about speed and finesse which were Jordan true strengths. Jordan made himself stronger to endure the punishment that existed in the 90's NBA. Jordan also came back at 40 to play a couple more years and he was still better than most players half his age.

The Pippen argument is BS too. Pippen became the player he was by playing with Jordan and against him in practice every day.

Name one guy that became a star playing with Lebron. Davis, Kyrie, and Wade were already stars. Bosh and Love actually regressed as players.

Basically, Lebron is a great player that had to stack his team and set franchises back to win titles. He did it twice in Cleveland and once to Miami. He'll do the same to the Lakers too.

Can you show us some of the many examples of MJ taking all these vicious hits and hardcore physicality that he was on the receiving end of that LeBron wouldn't be able to handle like you said?

Thanks.

So since Pippen turned out to be so good because of MJ, why didn't MJ make more teammates into Pippen type players who became All-NBA players on both sides of the court? Why not turn Brad Sellers or Craig Hodges into great players like MJ allegedly did for Pippen?

Watch on YouTube

That took all of 30 seconds to find.

Pippen, Horace Grant, and Toni Kukoc were all rookies with Jordan and they all turned out to be damn good players. Lebron would have demanded they get traded for his buddies.

Any other questions?

Oh, so 1 example of the so called physicality from a guy who was 1 inch taller and 30 pounds lighter that LeBron?? That's what he wouldn't be able to over come??

Grant made 1 All-star team (in 94 w/o MJ) and 4 All-defensive teams with 1993 being the only one with MJ. Kukoc was already an established professional playing FIBA ball overseas since he was 17yrs old. His rookie year (1994) he was already 25yrs old and MJ had quit the game. So how did MJ happen to make this 25yr old rookie so great withoutt even being on the team fulltime until 2yrs later??

[HomoSapien]

What on earth is this thread? I don't care if you think LeBron is better than MJ, but to go so far as to cast doubt on it being "reasonable" that MICHAEL JORDAN is better is such an odd take.

[The4thHorseman]

Yeah Jordan should have just left and forced his way and joined Bird and Michael etc., or magic worthy and Kareem and formed his own super team like James would have. Then he could move to the pistons. And then to the jazz. And just have won 15 titles by burning through their assets for instant gratification, like a virus.

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

At age of the 22 Pippen and Boobie Gibson had the same stats. And what free agents came to play with Jordan? They didn't have any major free agent acquisitions while Jordan was there. And prior to Jordan being drafted, the Bulls weren't exactly a powerhouse. They were the joke of the NBA.

Here are the best years of the Lebrons teammates:
Dwyane Wade (2010-2011) - 25.5 pts/6.4 reb/4.4 ast
Chris Bosh (2010-2011) - 18.7/8.3/1.9
Kyrie Irving (2016-2017) - 25.2/2.5/5.8
Anthony Davis (2019-2020) - 26.1-9.3-3.2

Here is Jordans:
Scottie Pippen (1991-1992): 21/7.7/7
Horace Grant (1991-1992): 14.2/10/2.7

The only Active All-Star Jordan ever played with was Scottie Pippen. For Lebron, that list is a bit bigger. So super teams - yea.

You forgot Orlando Woolridge who avg. 23-5-2 in 1984-85 season, plus in the playoffs that year he avg. 20-3-2

Quintin Dailey off the bench that same year. 16-2-2 reg. season and 15-3-3 in the playoffs.

[magicman1978]

What on earth is this thread? I don't care if you think LeBron is better than MJ, but to go so far as to cast doubt on it being "reasonable" that MICHAEL JORDAN is better is such an odd take.

These threads bring out the worst on this board. 90% of the posts in the thread are borderline trolling and/or uneducated takes. And the 10% of valid points and intelligent discussion gets ignored and lost in the mix as people just focus on the most outlandish comments. It just turns into people flinging what is essentially poop back and forth at each other. I don't really know how anyone can definitively say that either Jordan or LeBron don't have arguments for being better.

[Huffman]

I also have a beef when people compare MJ/LeBron that people only reference the same 6 years of MJs career and compare that to the entirety of LeBrons 17 year NBA career.

No mention of how MJ got beat multiple times over before Pippen showed up, no mention of how he didnt accomplish anything after he went to the Wizards. Just keep focusing on that prime cut 6 year stretch while comparing it to LeBron start to finish 17 years.

Yeah Jordan should have just left and forced his way and joined Bird and Michael etc., or magic worthy and Kareem and formed his own super team like James would have. Then he could move to the pistons. And then to the jazz. And just have won 15 titles by burning through their assets for instant gratification, like a virus.

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

You have no clue what you are talking about. The 90's Bulls were built through trades and the draft. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were drafted after Jordan and developed into great players with Jordan. The rest of the team was nothing special. The Bulls put good shooters at the point guard position (Hodges, Armstrong, and Kerr), physical centers (Cartwright, King, Purdue, and Longley), and mobile power forwards that could defend on the perimeter (Grant, Rodman, and Kukoc).

Lebron just goes to a team with in a nice location with capspace and a lot of assets and recruits (forces trades) for the best players in the league. That's the one thing I think Lebron is better at than Michael. He's a better salesman. Jordan could definitely be a prick because he wanted to crush all the other great players. Not recruit them.

[The4thHorseman]

Yeah Jordan should have just left and forced his way and joined Bird and Michael etc., or magic worthy and Kareem and formed his own super team like James would have. Then he could move to the pistons. And then to the jazz. And just have won 15 titles by burning through their assets for instant gratification, like a virus.

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

You have no clue what you are talking about. The 90's Bulls were built through trades and the draft. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were drafted after Jordan and developed into great players with Jordan. The rest of the team was nothing special. The Bulls put good shooters at the point guard position (Hodges, Armstrong, and Kerr), physical centers (Cartwright, King, Purdue, and Longley), and mobile power forwards that could defend on the perimeter (Grant, Rodman, and Kukoc).

Lebron just goes to a team with in a nice location with capspace and a lot of assets and recruits (forces trades) for the best players in the league. That's the one thing I think Lebron is better at than Michael. He's a better salesman. Jordan could definitely be a prick because he wanted to crush all the other great players. Not recruit them.

How does LeBron force opposing GM's to trade away their best players to the team James plays for?

What examples do you have of James forcing opposing GM's to do that?

[otwok]

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

At age of the 22 Pippen and Boobie Gibson had the same stats. And what free agents came to play with Jordan? They didn't have any major free agent acquisitions while Jordan was there. And prior to Jordan being drafted, the Bulls weren't exactly a powerhouse. They were the joke of the NBA.

Here are the best years of the Lebrons teammates:
Dwyane Wade (2010-2011) - 25.5 pts/6.4 reb/4.4 ast
Chris Bosh (2010-2011) - 18.7/8.3/1.9
Kyrie Irving (2016-2017) - 25.2/2.5/5.8
Anthony Davis (2019-2020) - 26.1-9.3-3.2

Here is Jordans:
Scottie Pippen (1991-1992): 21/7.7/7
Horace Grant (1991-1992): 14.2/10/2.7

The only Active All-Star Jordan ever played with was Scottie Pippen. For Lebron, that list is a bit bigger. So super teams - yea.

You forgot Orlando Woolridge who avg. 23-5-2 in 1984-85 season, plus in the playoffs that year he avg. 20-3-2

Quintin Dailey off the bench that same year. 16-2-2 reg. season and 15-3-3 in the playoffs.

Sure you can add them. Why not. Bron also played with Boozer his rookie year and had similar numbers to Quintin Dailey. And plus big z. The point is that over the course of his career, Bron has played with more stars than Jordan. The reason for that being that aside from his first stint in Cleveland, Lebron actually chose the teams he played with. Each time. I didn't even add Kevin Love to this list who averages 26+12 before playing with Lebron in Cleveland and was essentially a 20+10 player in Minn.

[Johnny Bball]

Jordan didnt HAVE to leave, he was born into the most stacked team of the decade. Jordan wasnt playing with Boobie Gibson and Donyell Marshall. He was like Steph Curry on the Warriors. You dont have to leave to go play on a good team when all the talent comes to you

You have no clue what you are talking about. The 90's Bulls were built through trades and the draft. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were drafted after Jordan and developed into great players with Jordan. The rest of the team was nothing special. The Bulls put good shooters at the point guard position (Hodges, Armstrong, and Kerr), physical centers (Cartwright, King, Purdue, and Longley), and mobile power forwards that could defend on the perimeter (Grant, Rodman, and Kukoc).

Lebron just goes to a team with in a nice location with capspace and a lot of assets and recruits (forces trades) for the best players in the league. That's the one thing I think Lebron is better at than Michael. He's a better salesman. Jordan could definitely be a prick because he wanted to crush all the other great players. Not recruit them.

How does LeBron force opposing GM's to trade away their best players to the team James plays for?

What examples do you have of James forcing opposing GM's to do that?

Is this a joke? Love and Davis. and he forces the team he is ON to make the trade, not the other GMs.

[The4thHorseman]

You have no clue what you are talking about. The 90's Bulls were built through trades and the draft. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were drafted after Jordan and developed into great players with Jordan. The rest of the team was nothing special. The Bulls put good shooters at the point guard position (Hodges, Armstrong, and Kerr), physical centers (Cartwright, King, Purdue, and Longley), and mobile power forwards that could defend on the perimeter (Grant, Rodman, and Kukoc).

Lebron just goes to a team with in a nice location with capspace and a lot of assets and recruits (forces trades) for the best players in the league. That's the one thing I think Lebron is better at than Michael. He's a better salesman. Jordan could definitely be a prick because he wanted to crush all the other great players. Not recruit them.

How does LeBron force opposing GM's to trade away their best players to the team James plays for?

What examples do you have of James forcing opposing GM's to do that?

Is this a joke? Love and Davis. and he forces the team he is ON to make the trade, not the other GMs.

Hey genius, how did LeBron force T-Wolves GM to trade Love to Cleveland? What threats and ultimatums were givin' to that GM if he didn't trade Love to Cleveland?

It's so funny when I see people say James handpicked teammates or forced trades as if the other team isn't on board, but is being forced to trade against their wishes. Or it's just like the AS draft where LeBron gets to pick whoever he wants. The exaggerations are hilarious when it comes to LeBron.

[bwgood77]

I hate these arguments, and don't understand the need for all time rankings because depending on critieria used, you'd have different results.

However, I think LeBron is more skilled, but Jordan had more competitiveness, and dug deeper and his refuse to lose/will to win in big games, and clutch play in just the biggest of moments, was at a much higher level. It was really uncanny how he'd do it.

He also never kept teaming up with ever top 10 players while playing. Pippen was great, but there were a lot of big stars back then.

What do you consider a “skill”

Jump shooting is a skill. Jordan is a better jump shooter. Lebron is a below average free throw shooter. That is a skill. Jordan was 83-85% free throw shooter. Jordan post ups. Way more moves than Lebron who bullies over players. Jordan fade away up and under etc low post.

Jordan played better defense for longer time as well.

Now tell me what type of skill Lebron has over Jordan besides passing? I guess rebounding? Since he’s got 2 inches over Jordan.

So what other skills does Lebron have that’s better than Jordan?

Court vision, passing, 3 pt shooting...I wasn't thinking rebounding, but yeah, I guess that too.

[The4thHorseman]

At age of the 22 Pippen and Boobie Gibson had the same stats. And what free agents came to play with Jordan? They didn't have any major free agent acquisitions while Jordan was there. And prior to Jordan being drafted, the Bulls weren't exactly a powerhouse. They were the joke of the NBA.

Here are the best years of the Lebrons teammates:
Dwyane Wade (2010-2011) - 25.5 pts/6.4 reb/4.4 ast
Chris Bosh (2010-2011) - 18.7/8.3/1.9
Kyrie Irving (2016-2017) - 25.2/2.5/5.8
Anthony Davis (2019-2020) - 26.1-9.3-3.2

Here is Jordans:
Scottie Pippen (1991-1992): 21/7.7/7
Horace Grant (1991-1992): 14.2/10/2.7

The only Active All-Star Jordan ever played with was Scottie Pippen. For Lebron, that list is a bit bigger. So super teams - yea.

You forgot Orlando Woolridge who avg. 23-5-2 in 1984-85 season, plus in the playoffs that year he avg. 20-3-2

Quintin Dailey off the bench that same year. 16-2-2 reg. season and 15-3-3 in the playoffs.

Sure you can add them. Why not. Bron also played with Boozer his rookie year and had similar numbers to Quintin Dailey. And plus big z. The point is that over the course of his career, Bron has played with more stars than Jordan. The reason for that being that aside from his first stint in Cleveland, Lebron actually chose the teams he played with. Each time. I didn't even add Kevin Love to this list who averages 26+12 before playing with Lebron in Cleveland and was essentially a 20+10 player in Minn.

Yes, LeBron has played with more stars but this era is much more of an offensive era. The Bulls offense was great as was their defense. Other teams didn't have that. It was either great on one side and bad on the other.

Love put up great stas on bad teams who never made the playoffs.

[twyzted]

Lebron stans using Pippen as an argument against MJ is laughable. Was Pippen even considered a top 5 player during the title runs ? Maybe not even top 10 for most of those. I remember him saying when he won All-Star MVP during '94 that people though he won't make the game without MJ. So Lebron was not able to convince a top 5 player join him in Cleveland and had to go ring chase all this time ? What a loser.

Pippen was All-NBA on both sides of the ball for every title run except in 1991 when he was All-Defensive that year. In the 1991 Finals he outscored Magic even though Pip was second option on offense and played smothering defense.

Better question is, did MJ ever face an opposing 2nd option that was a better all around player than Pippen??

You know that all nba is 3 teams right? And that Pippen was 1 time in 1st team all nba? Then 2x 2nd and 2x 3rd?
So that would indicate that he was not top 5 but obviously he was a great player but not top 5. Also Jordan guarded magic in 91 nba finals.
Gary Payton in 96 could be argued over pippen that year.

[Homer38]

Just look at free throws.

It mean that Shaq and Wilt are 2 of the worst players of all-time.