Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[Camping Fan]

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

Yep and the title is the ultimate achievement - The only thing that Kobe Bryant valued more than his NBA titles was the Olympic Gold because of it's world class statement.

[michaelm]

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

Why would they care about the actual aim of the sport ?.

[Camping Fan]

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

Why would they care about the actual aim of the sport ?.

Only one thing really matters... Championships

[King4Day]

Something I think people will look past is that Jordan played 3 years of college (3 less years in the NBA). Then skipped a couple of seasons in the middle before returning to 3peat into his mid 30's. The stats he would have piled up in those lost seasons will cost him points in this argument when it shouldn't.

And let's not use that argument that MJ only did it with Pippen. I don't think we need to explain the superteams LeBron had to put together to get his rings.
Had MJ not retired mid-90's, there's a real chance they reach 8 straight finals with serious competition in the East. Maybe they don't beat the Rockets in one or both seasons or maybe they do, but it would still show just how dominant he was. And if they tried to 4-peat at the end of that run, it's possible they at least reach one more finals.

[michaelm]

LeBron could make a better case for himself by bringing another championship to the Lakers - He would be putting the Lakers even with the Celtics for the most titles ever, First title for the Lakers in 10 years and easily sets himself up for a second year straight with Anthony Davis to finish his third year and then decide if the fourth year option is reasonable or simply retire. It would be hard for me to imagine him walking away from 41 million dollars if he adds another title this year

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

More to the point LeBron does, or why all the team hopping ?. His fans have just made up subsidiary endpoints after he looked like he wasn’t going to match Jordan’s tally, not that it is as yet a given he won’t. All NBA statistics are pretty much only meaningful insofar as putting them up contributes to winning imo.

Of course other things come into winning including some luck, but as I have previously posted marking down Jordan in comparison with LeBron as some seem to do because he had better teams is imo totally ludicrous, having the best team is what the sport is about, the better teams were built around Jordan, Pippen and others developed next to him, players who joined the team were able to fit with Jordan, and Jordan’s success came after he acceded albeit reluctantly to coaching and a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to an extent for the benefit of the team, something which LeBron may be doing this year but hasn’t done previously.

[Lalouie]

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

More to the point LeBron does, or why all the team hopping ?. His fans have just made up subsidiary endpoints after he looked like he wasn’t going to match Jordan’s tally, not that it is as yet a given he won’t. All NBA statistics are pretty much only meaningful insofar as putting them up contributes to winning imo.

Of course other things come into winning including some luck, but as I have previously posted marking down Jordan in comparison with LeBron as some seem to do because he had better teams is imo totally ludicrous, having the best team is what the sport is about, the better teams were built around Jordan, Pippen and others developed next to him, players who joined the team were able to fit with Jordan, and Jordan’s success came after he acceded albeit reluctantly to coaching and a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to an extent for the benefit of the team, something which LeBron may be doing this year but hasn’t done previously.

the things i don't like about lebron are all ancillary imo. everyone agrees about his greatness. but if we stray from objectivity, well,,,,,,

thing is he is great. thing is i don't like his process and a few other things touched upon endlessly.
so i had to find another way to divine why i place lebron down on my list because like,,,so what's the difference between 6 rings in one era, 3 in another, and 11 in another. stats in one era, versus another era and another era.

at that point we get away from the player and start ruminating about all that OTHER stuff.

so howz about goats by position. the game is run by guards and such, so all goat centers no matter how goatish they are STILL need guards and that's not fair.

so then how about a metric defining goats to their peer players. that seems fair. how much better was mj to his peers versus lebron to his peers to bird to his peers. that's pretty damn fair.

i added "impact on the sport" on my criteria because imo legacy is unassailable. you can tweak stats all you want but legacy is legacy. that's why dr j is high on my list. not top10 but higher than others have on their list i'm pretty sure. foundation is everything because those guys had no one to follow.

i came up with one that no one talks about but is often squeezed into the conversation. a goat has to be as perfect as possible. the more demerits the more he slides down. a goat shouldn't have chinks, or at least as few chinks as possible. mj has way fewer chinks than lebron. lebron is full of them. chinks are like losses - they cannot be erased. whenever there's a comparison, everyone says "he couldn't do this or that" but no one ever weighs them because in the end everyone ONLY talks about what they COULD DO. i think demerits should count as much as gold stars.

put all the above together and we have a check list that is 50long to 75long.

most boxes checked wins

[Lost92Bricks]

Lebron has definitely faced stiffer competition than Jordan. Nobody Jordan faced in the finals was better than the Warriors and arguably the Spurs. And I would say the wing players of the 90's are garbage compared to today.

Of course you don't mention Lebron playing in the weakest conference of all-time for 95% of his career. Or playing with 5 different all-stars/superstars.

[michaelm]

be sure cause the players do

More to the point LeBron does, or why all the team hopping ?. His fans have just made up subsidiary endpoints after he looked like he wasn’t going to match Jordan’s tally, not that it is as yet a given he won’t. All NBA statistics are pretty much only meaningful insofar as putting them up contributes to winning imo.

Of course other things come into winning including some luck, but as I have previously posted marking down Jordan in comparison with LeBron as some seem to do because he had better teams is imo totally ludicrous, having the best team is what the sport is about, the better teams were built around Jordan, Pippen and others developed next to him, players who joined the team were able to fit with Jordan, and Jordan’s success came after he acceded albeit reluctantly to coaching and a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to an extent for the benefit of the team, something which LeBron may be doing this year but hasn’t done previously.

the things i don't like about lebron are all ancillary imo. everyone agrees about his greatness. but if we stray from objectivity, well,,,,,,

thing is he is great. thing is i don't like his process and a few other things touched upon endlessly.
so i had to find another way to divine why i place lebron down on my list because like,,,so what's the difference between 6 rings in one era, 3 in another, and 11 in another. stats in one era, versus another era and another era.

at that point we get away from the player and start ruminating about all that OTHER stuff.

so howz about goats by position. the game is run by guards and such, so all goat centers no matter how goatish they are STILL need guards and that's not fair.

so then how about a metric defining goats to their peer players. that seems fair. how much better was mj to his peers versus lebron to his peers to bird to his peers. that's pretty damn fair.

i added "impact on the sport" on my criteria because imo legacy is unassailable. you can tweak stats all you want but legacy is legacy. that's why dr j is high on my list. not top10 but higher than others have on their list i'm pretty sure. foundation is everything because those guys had no one to follow.

i came up with one that no one talks about but is often squeezed into the conversation. a goat has to be as perfect as possible. the more demerits the more he slides down. a goat shouldn't have chinks, or at least as few chinks as possible. mj has way fewer chinks than lebron. lebron is full of them. chinks are like losses - they cannot be erased. whenever there's a comparison, everyone says "he couldn't do this or that" but no one ever weighs them because in the end everyone ONLY talks about what they COULD DO. i think demerits should count as much as gold stars.

put all the above together and we have a check list that is 50long to 75long.

most boxes checked wins

Of course he is all-time great and has been for many years. What I mainly haven’t liked is the sizeable glory hunting percentage of his fans and their attitude towards players or teams who dare to challenge him. Wasn’t particularly keen on the throwing of team-mates under the bus since he has been in the superteam business when he didn’t win, despite the rosters concerned being pretty much of his own devisement, as well.

I formerly also didn’t like the ball dominant style of LeBron ball he has employed for most of his career, preferring the ensemble style of GSW obviously but also the Spurs during the very long period that they were good, but can’t really object to the style of basketball the Lakers are playing this year with PG LeBron potentiating Davis.

[drosereturn]

6 out of 6 finals mvp.

[Lalouie]

More to the point LeBron does, or why all the team hopping ?. His fans have just made up subsidiary endpoints after he looked like he wasn’t going to match Jordan’s tally, not that it is as yet a given he won’t. All NBA statistics are pretty much only meaningful insofar as putting them up contributes to winning imo.

Of course other things come into winning including some luck, but as I have previously posted marking down Jordan in comparison with LeBron as some seem to do because he had better teams is imo totally ludicrous, having the best team is what the sport is about, the better teams were built around Jordan, Pippen and others developed next to him, players who joined the team were able to fit with Jordan, and Jordan’s success came after he acceded albeit reluctantly to coaching and a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to an extent for the benefit of the team, something which LeBron may be doing this year but hasn’t done previously.

the things i don't like about lebron are all ancillary imo. everyone agrees about his greatness. but if we stray from objectivity, well,,,,,,

thing is he is great. thing is i don't like his process and a few other things touched upon endlessly.
so i had to find another way to divine why i place lebron down on my list because like,,,so what's the difference between 6 rings in one era, 3 in another, and 11 in another. stats in one era, versus another era and another era.

at that point we get away from the player and start ruminating about all that OTHER stuff.

so howz about goats by position. the game is run by guards and such, so all goat centers no matter how goatish they are STILL need guards and that's not fair.

so then how about a metric defining goats to their peer players. that seems fair. how much better was mj to his peers versus lebron to his peers to bird to his peers. that's pretty damn fair.

i added "impact on the sport" on my criteria because imo legacy is unassailable. you can tweak stats all you want but legacy is legacy. that's why dr j is high on my list. not top10 but higher than others have on their list i'm pretty sure. foundation is everything because those guys had no one to follow.

i came up with one that no one talks about but is often squeezed into the conversation. a goat has to be as perfect as possible. the more demerits the more he slides down. a goat shouldn't have chinks, or at least as few chinks as possible. mj has way fewer chinks than lebron. lebron is full of them. chinks are like losses - they cannot be erased. whenever there's a comparison, everyone says "he couldn't do this or that" but no one ever weighs them because in the end everyone ONLY talks about what they COULD DO. i think demerits should count as much as gold stars.

put all the above together and we have a check list that is 50long to 75long.

most boxes checked wins

I mainly don’t like a sizeable percentage of his fans and their attitude towards players or teams who dare to challenge him. Wasn’t particularly keen on the throwing of team-mates under the bus since he has been in the superteam business when he didn’t win despite the rosters concerned being pretty much of his own devisement.

I formerly also didn’t like the ball dominant style of LeBton ball he has employed for most of his career, preferring the ensemble style of GSW obviously but also the Spurs during the very long period that they were good, but can’t really object to the style of basketball the Lakers are playing this year with PG LeBron potentiating Davis.

lebron's ball dominant is different from cp3 pg-type dominant, and that is something i dislike. lebron dominates at the expense of his teammate stars. his numbers tells all. he had the same 27/7.5/7.5 whether he played for early cavs, late cavs, or miami. each with a particular set of teammates and star power. why his apg ppg didn't move when he had all that help(miami and cavs were top5 shooting teams) attests to the fact that he preferred to maintain his ppg at the expense of his apg.......the facilitating lebron is a myth camouflaged by his bullet passes.

[michaelm]

the things i don't like about lebron are all ancillary imo. everyone agrees about his greatness. but if we stray from objectivity, well,,,,,,

thing is he is great. thing is i don't like his process and a few other things touched upon endlessly.
so i had to find another way to divine why i place lebron down on my list because like,,,so what's the difference between 6 rings in one era, 3 in another, and 11 in another. stats in one era, versus another era and another era.

at that point we get away from the player and start ruminating about all that OTHER stuff.

so howz about goats by position. the game is run by guards and such, so all goat centers no matter how goatish they are STILL need guards and that's not fair.

so then how about a metric defining goats to their peer players. that seems fair. how much better was mj to his peers versus lebron to his peers to bird to his peers. that's pretty damn fair.

i added "impact on the sport" on my criteria because imo legacy is unassailable. you can tweak stats all you want but legacy is legacy. that's why dr j is high on my list. not top10 but higher than others have on their list i'm pretty sure. foundation is everything because those guys had no one to follow.

i came up with one that no one talks about but is often squeezed into the conversation. a goat has to be as perfect as possible. the more demerits the more he slides down. a goat shouldn't have chinks, or at least as few chinks as possible. mj has way fewer chinks than lebron. lebron is full of them. chinks are like losses - they cannot be erased. whenever there's a comparison, everyone says "he couldn't do this or that" but no one ever weighs them because in the end everyone ONLY talks about what they COULD DO. i think demerits should count as much as gold stars.

put all the above together and we have a check list that is 50long to 75long.

most boxes checked wins

I mainly don’t like a sizeable percentage of his fans and their attitude towards players or teams who dare to challenge him. Wasn’t particularly keen on the throwing of team-mates under the bus since he has been in the superteam business when he didn’t win despite the rosters concerned being pretty much of his own devisement.

I formerly also didn’t like the ball dominant style of LeBton ball he has employed for most of his career, preferring the ensemble style of GSW obviously but also the Spurs during the very long period that they were good, but can’t really object to the style of basketball the Lakers are playing this year with PG LeBron potentiating Davis.

lebron's ball dominant is different from cp3 pg-type dominant, and that is something i dislike. lebron dominates at the expense of his teammate stars. his numbers tells all. he had the same 27.7.5/7.5 whether he played for early cavs, late cavs, or miami. each with a particular set of teammates and star power. why his apg ppg didn't move when he had all that help(miami and cavs were top5 shooting teams) attests to the fact that he preferred to maintain his ppg at the expense of his apg.......the facilitating lebron is a myth camouflage by his bullet passes.

Sure, exactly my objection too, but he doesn’t appear to be doing the same with AD this season.

[Air Apparent]

6 out of 6 finals mvp.

oops, how did that slip through the cracks for this argument

imagine constantly trying to argue that the guy who lost way more in his career with far more help and opportunities, and doesn't have half the accolades individually, is better than the guy who once he started winning was damn near perfect until he retired, and whooped just enough ass to remind us in his washed-up state even for someone who took a long ass break and came back years later as a grandpa

[ratul]

I bet MJ would have been roasted by Demar derozan

[TheHardenChoke]

ksajfklasfj it's sad because he had to wait until he he teamed up with a top ~15 player of all time, was 30 years old and Bird and Magic were professional golfers before he could win anything that wasn't a dunk contest.

Lol you shook bitch, he literally beat Magic in the finals.

Your boy did nothing before colluding, he has underachieved his whole career, even with all the help.

He is exactly the kind of stan I would expect the weak youth of today to stan....run when it gets too hard...every time.

Nothing but a fake star with empty stats, pumped up by the media and loved by the stupid.

Weak

Lebron going to the finals as a 22 year old alone is more impressive than MJ's entire career. Beating a 73-9 team spearheaded by the two greatest shooters of all time down 3-1 is the greatest feat in sporting history. Sticking your tongue out as a 33 year old to squeeze by Charles Barkley pales in comparison.

Yes...getting swept in the finals is a great achievement compared to 6 rings and 6 fmvp.

How do you feel about your LeGOAT handing his 22 year old direct opponent a fmvp?

How fvking embarrassing....like your posting

You losers have no legs to stand on...weak

Warned for personal attack. Keep things civil and don't make it personal.
- jamaalstar21

[ThreeMileAllan]

Jfc Lebron stans are super annoying

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[dhsilv2]

Something I think people will look past is that Jordan played 3 years of college (3 less years in the NBA). Then skipped a couple of seasons in the middle before returning to 3peat into his mid 30's. The stats he would have piled up in those lost seasons will cost him points in this argument when it shouldn't.

And let's not use that argument that MJ only did it with Pippen. I don't think we need to explain the superteams LeBron had to put together to get his rings.
Had MJ not retired mid-90's, there's a real chance they reach 8 straight finals with serious competition in the East. Maybe they don't beat the Rockets in one or both seasons or maybe they do, but it would still show just how dominant he was. And if they tried to 4-peat at the end of that run, it's possible they at least reach one more finals.

Why in the HELL would we not hold MJ's retirements against him? Of COURSE they're going to be held against him. Sure he did 3 years of college and you can at least somewhat rationalize that all be it I think playing with Dean Smith did a lot more for MJ's later career. MJ just wasn't as physically ready for the nba as Lebron was at 18.

[dhsilv2]

not sure why people put value on these titles like they do. If he plays great basketball, then that helps his case. If he doesn't, then it doesn't help it. Right now he's playing great and yeah he might win this summer league tourney, but win or lose what he's doing should be judged by how he individual plays, not the results of his team as a whole.

be sure cause the players do

More to the point LeBron does, or why all the team hopping ?. His fans have just made up subsidiary endpoints after he looked like he wasn’t going to match Jordan’s tally, not that it is as yet a given he won’t. All NBA statistics are pretty much only meaningful insofar as putting them up contributes to winning imo.

Of course other things come into winning including some luck, but as I have previously posted marking down Jordan in comparison with LeBron as some seem to do because he had better teams is imo totally ludicrous, having the best team is what the sport is about, the better teams were built around Jordan, Pippen and others developed next to him, players who joined the team were able to fit with Jordan, and Jordan’s success came after he acceded albeit reluctantly to coaching and a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to an extent for the benefit of the team, something which LeBron may be doing this year but hasn’t done previously.

The problem with the title discussion is not that winning isn't everything in terms of player evaluation, it's that you create a binary success system when that isn't a reasonable or meaningful way to measure. Winning is just that, winning. Be it winning games, series, conferences, or titles. You can't evaluate a player's impact on winning by only looking at titles.

839-426 66.3%
706-366 65.9%

119-60 66.5%
165-85 66%

30 series wins
37 series wins

When we look at these two guys in terms of simply winning, we see two nearly identical resumes, to the point of it being almost insane. This playoffs now puts lebron ahead in terms of total seasons in the playoffs by just 1 season. Lebron has won significantly more regular season and playoff games (health being a factor for lebron in the regular season as well as not retiring) and a mix of a longer first round and a significant number of additional playoff series wins being the driving force for more playoff wins. Lebron wins marginally more games as a percentage in the regular season and MJ marginally more win the playoffs.

Overall if we drop the titles and simply look at their impact on winning, lebron here does stand out as having simply won more. Again, only when we look at sports purely through the binary championships, we simply miss the VAST majority of what's happening.

Winning absolutely matters, stats that don't measure winning are meaningless, but titles are not the measure of winning. They're simply too small of a sample size, too contingent on other things, and simply put binary in a sport that is anything but that. That isn't to say that players aren't going to use them as their bench mark, and I think before this player movement, empowered players deal, that made the sport better. Today, I think it ruins things in a lot of ways, though I guess it makes the summer more interesting. It however isn't objectively the right measure. It's much more an emotional one and hey, I get it, I'm a fan too and winning just feels way better. But you can't measure greatness that way.

Now nobody and I really mean this, nobody is less of a fan of lebron than I am nor are many bigger MJ fans. But it's beyond dumb to continue this 6-0 stuff. Jordan absolutely had the best team around him. While other teams put together nice rosters, the 96 sonics coming to mind as perhaps to best team of that era in terms of depth and talent. Nobody was putting 3 all nba defenders and two of the top 10 offensive players together like the bulls. Nobody was running a 20 PER stud like Toni off the bench, running guys like BJ or Harper as the additional guard. Hell the bulls were effectively running possitionless basketball more than a decade before it became a thing. I still contend MJ was the better player. I think Jordan was more adaptable in how he could play his game to create team success and ultimately, while lebron has won more, I don't think longevity vs peak greatness is there yet for me to move lebron over MJ. I also accept that short of an injury lebron's pretty close to moving past MJ in any objective measure and that eventually, it'll be a question of who was better at their peak vs career and ultimately I believe careers are how you measure greatness over peaks.

[syrus3]

It’s absolutely insane that Jordan’s 6-0 is held against MJ himself.

Imagine your (MJ) resume being better than the guy (Lebron) who is suddenly leapfrogged against OTHER (Kareem, etc.) guys that also have a better resume and I’d be heated too. MJ will never say it but I’m sure it annoys him. And it’s all thanks to the media and Lebron’s incredibly delusional fan base.

[4pointkiller]

Let's get real for a second. Lebron has benefitted so tremendously in ways that Mike didn't/couldn't because of advances in tech, medicine, overall advancement of the game, etc., that it'd be a massive upset if he didn't eclipse MJ from a pure basketball POV. The fact that this is even a discussion with all the built in advantages the current generation has over 80s/90s players is a testament to Jordan's greatness.

Also, these one-sided bait threads are exhausting. Especially the ones on topics that have been litigated and re-litigated 100x over.

Players in 80s/90s weren't tested for performance enhancing drugs so vigorously. It would be naive to think it wasn't a problem in the NBA but was in the MLB.

[Huffman]

Can you show us some of the many examples of MJ taking all these vicious hits and hardcore physicality that he was on the receiving end of that LeBron wouldn't be able to handle like you said?

Thanks.

So since Pippen turned out to be so good because of MJ, why didn't MJ make more teammates into Pippen type players who became All-NBA players on both sides of the court? Why not turn Brad Sellers or Craig Hodges into great players like MJ allegedly did for Pippen?

Watch on YouTube

That took all of 30 seconds to find.

Pippen, Horace Grant, and Toni Kukoc were all rookies with Jordan and they all turned out to be damn good players. Lebron would have demanded they get traded for his buddies.

Any other questions?

Oh, so 1 example of the so called physicality from a guy who was 1 inch taller and 30 pounds lighter that LeBron?? That's what he wouldn't be able to over come??

Grant made 1 All-star team (in 94 w/o MJ) and 4 All-defensive teams with 1993 being the only one with MJ. Kukoc was already an established professional playing FIBA ball overseas since he was 17yrs old. His rookie year (1994) he was already 25yrs old and MJ had quit the game. So how did MJ happen to make this 25yr old rookie so great withoutt even being on the team fulltime until 2yrs later??

You asked for examples and I gave you video proof of the type of fouls that happened in the 90's NBA. If you want more examples, look up the Jordan Rules. The only other player to have to put up with that type of strategy is Shack.

PIppen and Grant were rookies together and developed into pretty damn good players.

As a rookie, Pippen wasn’t good. In fact, he barely displayed rebounding skills and an ability to steal the ball. Pippen became part of Chicago's young forward tandem with Horace Grant, although both came off the bench to back up Brad Sellers and Charles Oakley, respectively, during their rookie seasons. With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over the course of his career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

Kukoc was a far from a finished product when he came to the NBA. Playing Europe in the 90's is nowhere near as impressive as it is nowadays. Until Kukoc there were only a few Europeans that even played in the NBA. Remember what the Dream Team did to European teams.
From Kukoc:

"He was no different to me and he treated us all the same. He simply pushes you to the extremes. There was a good reason for that because our team had the highest expectations. It wasn’t easy and sure not everyone could handle it all. There was a hierarchy and everyone knew their place in the team and that was always the case."

I've made my point that Jordan pushed his teammates to improve and helped build the best team ever. Lebron chose a different route to winning. He used his leverage as the biggest star in the NBA to build stacked teams with other stars and veterans on cheap contracts. I personally have more respect for the guy who played with the team he was drafted by and went through the grind. Not the one that has repeatedly shopped his talents around to the easiest situation.