The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6)

[Mos_Heat]

Dude is a very competitive person, what he said was completely normal. If Westbrook or KD said something like that would anyone care? Probably not.

Yeah, I don't see what's the problem here. Giannis was a clear choice, but Lebron has all the right to be mad about it

[TheGOATRises007]

Also does anyone here still buy into the weak East narrative? I never did but this run might've changed some minds I imagine. Dude is thoroughly outplaying the best the West has to offer at 35.

I mean the East was fairly weak, but it shouldn't diminish the fact Lebron owned the East. You can only beat who's in front of you.

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

[Greyhound]

Love Lebron. Favorite player in the game, maybe favorite athlete of all time. But he wasn’t the MVP this year, and it really wasn’t arguable. He may still be the best player (that’s arguable, and the fact that it’s arguable in year 17 is unfathomable) but the most valuable player in the league in the 2019-2020 NBA regular season was Giannis and it’s not really arguable. Lebron can take exception all he wants, and it’s nice if that fuels him, but I’m not here for the whining he’s doing about the process. Giannis was the MVP and there’s no real debate about that. He takes exception to only getting 16 first place votes, that’s 16 more than he deserved. Giannis was MVP by a good margin

You must be a media guy.

You guys voted in your guy “that really wasn’t arguable” and he left some sunny side ups on your foreheads (with his predictable postseason flameout).

It happens.

Take the L (that LeBron is drawing attention to), scrape up the eggs and keep it moving.

I’m a Lebron fan but not a cult follower, I guess that’s where we part. Giannis is not “my guy”, if anyone is that’s LBJ. But there’s levels to this homer stuff apprently. Some of you I guess are that far gone. As an aside maybe you should know that nothing in the heat series has anything to do with the MVP voting. I don’t know why I have to break this news to you, but apparently I do

Giannis was better than Lebron this regular season, and yes it’s not really arguable at all

Nothing in the Heat series had anything to do with this vote. But last postseason’s duck walk should have. He flamed out in spectacular fashion, yet the media overlooked it and hyped him up as the best player in the league, playing on a historically great team, having arguably the greatest season of all time.

He then goes into the postseason and walks like a duck yet again. First time it’s shame on him, second time it’s shame on you.

I am not a “far gone homer” as you term it, yet I stand by my assertion.

Eggs/ Face/ Cleanup/ The sun will come out tomorrow (a day in the life of the NBA media)

[Baski]

Also does anyone here still buy into the weak East narrative? I never did but this run might've changed some minds I imagine. Dude is thoroughly outplaying the best the West has to offer at 35.

I mean the East was fairly weak, but it shouldn't diminish the fact Lebron owned the East. You can only beat who's in front of you.

Like Joey Wheeler put it, it's mainly the narrative that he owned the East because it was super weak. There've been some takes such as "place any Western superstar in Lebron's place and they achieve the same results".
The East may be weaker, but among active players, nobody but Lebron is walking through it like he did.

Looking at what he's doing at 35 in the West with a good cast, and how Harden, Kawhi and Giannis have flamed out, it just tells me that prime Lebron in the West would do the same thing he's done in the East. It's not as simple as just being a superstar.

[Fadeaway_J]

Read on Twitter

One thing I like about Vogel is that he's generally quick to make changes like this when the situation warrants.

[xb3at band1tx]

I have no problem with the MVP thing, James stuck the right amount of complimentary of Giannis and desire to wanting to win it.

In all actuality he was probably just using it as fuel ala, "I took it personally."

[limbo]

Read on Twitter

Howard was phenomenal in Game 1, so hopefully Vogel doesn't tinker around too much with what was clearly working in the first game. Kind of 'If it's not broke, don't fix it' type of thing...

I think Dwight is feeling super pumped for this series because he knows how important his role is going to be, being one of the main guys that's going to be guarding Jokic... From a defensive standpoint, this is arguably the biggest direct matchup in his entire career. There were no Centers around this good on offense when Dwight was in his prime... Plus, not playing against the Rockets means he should be well rested and motivate to prove himself.

[kayess]

This MVP stuff is embarrassing. It’s a regular season accomplishment and Giannis deserved it, what exactly are we doing here? LeBron shouldn’t be talking about. Get that title, and people will care about that a hell of a lot more.

What's concerning is that the same arguments people used to make against LeBron ("Sure, he has the best stats and is the most important player on the best regular season team, but we all know in our hearts that Kobe is better, so don't give LeBron the MVP!") are now being made against Giannis by us LeBron fans. We can't just change gears whenever convenient. Giannis is a deserving MVP.

I've been seeing a lot of this, and it really concerns me tbh. Their career arcs share a lot of similarities too (like making the leap and winning b2b MVPs), though it must be said there are some differences (far superior supporting cast + coaching). Still, you'd think LeBron fans would be way more understanding of the situation (not saying posters here aren't, obviously just some exceptions), considering they said a lot of these things about LeBron before (e.g. people were (wrongly) saying Kobe was still better, but Bron had the better year and it all comes down to the playoffs... Where he wrecked the Magic far worse than Kobe ever did or could, with an inferior cast, to say nothing of the chasm between them in impacting basketball games)

The trashing of Giannis being exposed by a smart, well coached team also has some slightly eerie parallels to that Boston series (where people accused LeBron of being something far worse than a flawed basketball player - a quitter!)

On this season: I mean, it's okay if some ATG freak manages to have a greater impact on winning than LeBron in the RS. Just from a pure motor perspective, it's hard to have a greater impact (even if you are better by minute, by possession) when you're older and you know what "really matters" is the PS. That's totally okay.

Idk where the Giannis train is headed but I hope him or Luka reach, or eclipse the heights LeBron did. I see them almost as having 2 halves of what made (makes) LeBron so special - otherworldly athleticism and relentless motor resulting in an irresistible force inside (on both ends), and ATG playmaking/vision, so if you're too busy stanning Bron maybe look at it from that perspective, because he ain't gonna be around forever and soon we'll be hitching our wagons to one of these 2 (or some other guy - that's great too!)

[Greyhound]

This MVP stuff is embarrassing. It’s a regular season accomplishment and Giannis deserved it, what exactly are we doing here? LeBron shouldn’t be talking about. Get that title, and people will care about that a hell of a lot more.

What's concerning is that the same arguments people used to make against LeBron ("Sure, he has the best stats and is the most important player on the best regular season team, but we all know in our hearts that Kobe is better, so don't give LeBron the MVP!") are now being made against Giannis by us LeBron fans. We can't just change gears whenever convenient. Giannis is a deserving MVP.

I've been seeing a lot of this, and it really concerns me tbh. Their career arcs share a lot of similarities too (like making the leap and winning b2b MVPs), though it must be said there are some differences (far superior supporting cast + coaching). Still, you'd think LeBron fans would be way more understanding of the situation (not saying posters here aren't, obviously just some exceptions), considering they said a lot of these things about LeBron before (e.g. people were (wrongly) saying Kobe was still better, but Bron had the better year and it all comes down to the playoffs... Where he wrecked the Magic far worse than Kobe ever did or could, with an inferior cast, to say nothing of the chasm between them in impacting basketball games)

The trashing of Giannis being exposed by a smart, well coached team also has some slightly eerie parallels to that Boston series (where people accused LeBron of being something far worse than a flawed basketball player - a quitter!)

On this season: I mean, it's okay if some ATG freak manages to have a greater impact on winning than LeBron in the RS. Just from a pure motor perspective, it's hard to have a greater impact (even if you are better by minute, by possession) when you're older and you know what "really matters" is the PS. That's totally okay.

Idk where the Giannis train is headed but I hope him or Luka reach, or eclipse the heights LeBron did. I see them almost as having 2 halves of what made (makes) LeBron so special - otherworldly athleticism and relentless motor resulting in an irresistible force inside (on both ends), and ATG playmaking/vision, so if you're too busy stanning Bron maybe look at it from that perspective, because he ain't gonna be around forever and soon we'll be hitching our wagons to one of these 2 (or some other guy - that's great too!)

What separates Lebron is the durability and sustained excellence. There is no way to know or predict who will have that. Perhaps they can eclipse his peak play and team accomplishments, but that will be a tall task as well. Chances of either of them cracking top three all time is possible but highly unlikely.

All the stuff about the LeBron/ Giannis parallels and understanding...

I see that differently then you. I feel that Giannis should be run through the mud the same way LeBron was. Let’s not change the rules now. LeBron had already built up some credibility with his Cinderella run in 07 before failing in 2009 and being torn down in 2010 and 2011. He still received much worse then Giannis (who has yet to achieve anything in the NBA playoffs) is receiving currently.

These players do not have the expectations placed on them that LeBron did and there is no way to know who can carry that weight.

I don’t see myself hitching my wagon to any young star. What I perceive as the mistreatment of LeBron (over the years) has soared me on the sport in general. I would not even classify myself as a fan of the sport anymore. Today I follow the league because I am curious as to how this LeBron story concludes. Once that book has closed, my watch is over.

[mademan]

Also does anyone here still buy into the weak East narrative? I never did but this run might've changed some minds I imagine. Dude is thoroughly outplaying the best the West has to offer at 35.

I mean the East was fairly weak, but it shouldn't diminish the fact Lebron owned the East. You can only beat who's in front of you.

As GSW showed you (injuries) and the Clippers (let downs), winning a conference for 8 straight years is absolutely ridiculous, even if it was 'weak'.

[Heej]

You must be a media guy.

You guys voted in your guy “that really wasn’t arguable” and he left some sunny side ups on your foreheads (with his predictable postseason flameout).

It happens.

Take the L (that LeBron is drawing attention to), scrape up the eggs and keep it moving.

I’m a Lebron fan but not a cult follower, I guess that’s where we part. Giannis is not “my guy”, if anyone is that’s LBJ. But there’s levels to this homer stuff apprently. Some of you I guess are that far gone. As an aside maybe you should know that nothing in the heat series has anything to do with the MVP voting. I don’t know why I have to break this news to you, but apparently I do

Giannis was better than Lebron this regular season, and yes it’s not really arguable at all

I completely disagree. If you want to say Giannis had a better regular season then ok, fine. But he wasn’t better than LeBron this season. LeBron was still the better player. I fully believe that LeBron would’ve won the MVP if the season hadn’t been postponed. He put Giannis in a jail cell the weekend before the pause, and the Lakers were hitting their stride.

In any event, both guys had the 1 seed. Both guys won their first round in 5 games. One guy is playing in the WCF while the other guy couldn’t even take a game off his second round matchup. Giannis had the better numbers, but LeBron was the better player.

This is where I'm at personally. When you look at the season in aggregate Giannis was clearly better, but LeBron had a very clear but minute opening to make a serious last minute run at turning the narrative in his favor. Slayed Giannis and Kawhi back to back, Bucks stumbled a bit in the standings and killed a chance at a 70 win season, Giannis hurt his knee and would be out 2 weeks giving the Lakers time to close the gap and allow LeBron to turn up in the stretch run to take advantage of recency bias.

Everything would have had to go the Lakers way, as in probably stringing together another streak of 7-8 games, the Bucks faltering, LeBron outplaying an injured Giannis, winning the final Clippers matchup, and get within a game or 2 or potentially even surpass the Bucks in win total; but IF he had done that I think he unfairly snags the MVP from Giannis at the last second thanks to narrative and recency bias. Unfortunately we know what happened, so clearly the window of opportunity was shut and Giannis became by far and away the MVP of the league.

I have absolutely zero problem with the result, if anything LeBron should've won in 2018 because CP3 was still a top 5-7 guy in the league that season imo and Lebron played every single game and carried them to like a 4 seed. But the main reason Harden won was cuz it was makeup vote for Westbrick foolishly winning the season before cuz of "hurr Durrrr triple doubles!!" (and godly clutch play).

[SideshowBob]

This MVP stuff is embarrassing. It’s a regular season accomplishment and Giannis deserved it, what exactly are we doing here? LeBron shouldn’t be talking about. Get that title, and people will care about that a hell of a lot more.

What's concerning is that the same arguments people used to make against LeBron ("Sure, he has the best stats and is the most important player on the best regular season team, but we all know in our hearts that Kobe is better, so don't give LeBron the MVP!") are now being made against Giannis by us LeBron fans. We can't just change gears whenever convenient. Giannis is a deserving MVP.

I've been seeing a lot of this, and it really concerns me tbh. Their career arcs share a lot of similarities too (like making the leap and winning b2b MVPs), though it must be said there are some differences (far superior supporting cast + coaching). Still, you'd think LeBron fans would be way more understanding of the situation (not saying posters here aren't, obviously just some exceptions), considering they said a lot of these things about LeBron before (e.g. people were (wrongly) saying Kobe was still better, but Bron had the better year and it all comes down to the playoffs... Where he wrecked the Magic far worse than Kobe ever did or could, with an inferior cast, to say nothing of the chasm between them in impacting basketball games)

The trashing of Giannis being exposed by a smart, well coached team also has some slightly eerie parallels to that Boston series (where people accused LeBron of being something far worse than a flawed basketball player - a quitter!)

On this season: I mean, it's okay if some ATG freak manages to have a greater impact on winning than LeBron in the RS. Just from a pure motor perspective, it's hard to have a greater impact (even if you are better by minute, by possession) when you're older and you know what "really matters" is the PS. That's totally okay.

Idk where the Giannis train is headed but I hope him or Luka reach, or eclipse the heights LeBron did. I see them almost as having 2 halves of what made (makes) LeBron so special - otherworldly athleticism and relentless motor resulting in an irresistible force inside (on both ends), and ATG playmaking/vision, so if you're too busy stanning Bron maybe look at it from that perspective, because he ain't gonna be around forever and soon we'll be hitching our wagons to one of these 2 (or some other guy - that's great too!)

I think the situations are similar, but not the same. Giannis's weaknesses were identifiable in the RS, are easier to articulate in comparison to 09 / 10 James, and his team's "early" postseason's exits were more clearly attributable to said weaknesses than James in 09/10 (not to say that Lebron was blameless - especially in 2010). Also correct me if I'm wrong, but the impact metrics don't favor 2020 Giannis over 2020 James as much as they did 09/10 James over the field back then (if at all). We don't want to over-bias in the opposite direction in a concerted effort to be objective - just to give off the impression of fairness.

On the same line of thinking - look at how positive a lot of Lebron die-hards have been towards Davis this postseason instead. Don't think anyone's afraid to give credit where its due - just in Giannis' case its not.

There are definitely genuine stans though - I won't speak on their behalf lol.

[Heej]

This MVP stuff is embarrassing. It’s a regular season accomplishment and Giannis deserved it, what exactly are we doing here? LeBron shouldn’t be talking about. Get that title, and people will care about that a hell of a lot more.

What's concerning is that the same arguments people used to make against LeBron ("Sure, he has the best stats and is the most important player on the best regular season team, but we all know in our hearts that Kobe is better, so don't give LeBron the MVP!") are now being made against Giannis by us LeBron fans. We can't just change gears whenever convenient. Giannis is a deserving MVP.

I've been seeing a lot of this, and it really concerns me tbh. Their career arcs share a lot of similarities too (like making the leap and winning b2b MVPs), though it must be said there are some differences (far superior supporting cast + coaching). Still, you'd think LeBron fans would be way more understanding of the situation (not saying posters here aren't, obviously just some exceptions), considering they said a lot of these things about LeBron before (e.g. people were (wrongly) saying Kobe was still better, but Bron had the better year and it all comes down to the playoffs... Where he wrecked the Magic far worse than Kobe ever did or could, with an inferior cast, to say nothing of the chasm between them in impacting basketball games)

The trashing of Giannis being exposed by a smart, well coached team also has some slightly eerie parallels to that Boston series (where people accused LeBron of being something far worse than a flawed basketball player - a quitter!)

On this season: I mean, it's okay if some ATG freak manages to have a greater impact on winning than LeBron in the RS. Just from a pure motor perspective, it's hard to have a greater impact (even if you are better by minute, by possession) when you're older and you know what "really matters" is the PS. That's totally okay.

Idk where the Giannis train is headed but I hope him or Luka reach, or eclipse the heights LeBron did. I see them almost as having 2 halves of what made (makes) LeBron so special - otherworldly athleticism and relentless motor resulting in an irresistible force inside (on both ends), and ATG playmaking/vision, so if you're too busy stanning Bron maybe look at it from that perspective, because he ain't gonna be around forever and soon we'll be hitching our wagons to one of these 2 (or some other guy - that's great too!)

I feel ya on that whole us Bron fans being the bullies Kobe fans were to us. But like c'mon man, Bron was certified in the playoffs for years before people started comparing him to Kobe. And even in the playoff series' he got eliminated in he was playing at comparable levels to Kobe and actually did better vs the Celtics than Kobe did. Giannis wasn't at LeBron's level in these playoffs, and that's including the games where LeBron played in like 2nd gear most of the time because the Lakers handled their opponent easily.

[thebigbird]

What's concerning is that the same arguments people used to make against LeBron ("Sure, he has the best stats and is the most important player on the best regular season team, but we all know in our hearts that Kobe is better, so don't give LeBron the MVP!") are now being made against Giannis by us LeBron fans. We can't just change gears whenever convenient. Giannis is a deserving MVP.

I've been seeing a lot of this, and it really concerns me tbh. Their career arcs share a lot of similarities too (like making the leap and winning b2b MVPs), though it must be said there are some differences (far superior supporting cast + coaching). Still, you'd think LeBron fans would be way more understanding of the situation (not saying posters here aren't, obviously just some exceptions), considering they said a lot of these things about LeBron before (e.g. people were (wrongly) saying Kobe was still better, but Bron had the better year and it all comes down to the playoffs... Where he wrecked the Magic far worse than Kobe ever did or could, with an inferior cast, to say nothing of the chasm between them in impacting basketball games)

The trashing of Giannis being exposed by a smart, well coached team also has some slightly eerie parallels to that Boston series (where people accused LeBron of being something far worse than a flawed basketball player - a quitter!)

On this season: I mean, it's okay if some ATG freak manages to have a greater impact on winning than LeBron in the RS. Just from a pure motor perspective, it's hard to have a greater impact (even if you are better by minute, by possession) when you're older and you know what "really matters" is the PS. That's totally okay.

Idk where the Giannis train is headed but I hope him or Luka reach, or eclipse the heights LeBron did. I see them almost as having 2 halves of what made (makes) LeBron so special - otherworldly athleticism and relentless motor resulting in an irresistible force inside (on both ends), and ATG playmaking/vision, so if you're too busy stanning Bron maybe look at it from that perspective, because he ain't gonna be around forever and soon we'll be hitching our wagons to one of these 2 (or some other guy - that's great too!)

What separates Lebron is the durability and sustained excellence. There is no way to know or predict who will have that. Perhaps they can eclipse his peak play and team accomplishments, but that will be a tall task as well. Chances of either of them cracking top three all time is possible but highly unlikely.

All the stuff about the LeBron/ Giannis parallels and understanding...

I see that differently then you. I feel that Giannis should be run through the mud the same way LeBron was. Let’s not change the rules now. LeBron had already built up some credibility with his Cinderella run in 07 before failing in 2009 and being torn down in 2010 and 2011. He still received much worse then Giannis (who has yet to achieve anything in the NBA playoffs) is receiving currently.

These players do not have the expectations placed on them that LeBron did and there is no way to know who can carry that weight.

I don’t see myself hitching my wagon to any young star. What I perceive as the mistreatment of LeBron (over the years) has soared me on the sport in general. I would not even classify myself as a fan of the sport anymore. Today I follow the league because I am curious as to how this LeBron story concludes. Once that book has closed, my watch is over.

I kind of feel the same way. LeBron shields all the other stars from criticism. Giannis losing in the second round is out of the news cycle. Kawhi losing in the second round is out of the news cycle. Yet lebron criticism never leaves the news cycle. He was getting it when I was in middle school, he’s getting it now that I’m in my last year of law school, and he got it every year in between. No one else has ever gotten that treatment in any sport, and no one will ever get it again.

[SideshowBob]

New Thread

[trex_8063]

How long do you guys think this team can stay together? They look pretty freaking incredible at their best.

This could be the dynasty/dominant team some detractors use against Lebron. How long can he stay at this level though? Even 2 years seems generous given age. If only he was drafted in the West.

Hard to say. "Dynasty" seems too strong a word given the age [and I'd still caution against over-confidence regarding this season till we're a little further on].

As a man well past his own physical prime, I think age is gonna start hitting Lebron really hard some time VERY soon.

tbf, I was saying sometime around 2014 or 2015 that Lebron [by 2020] would probably be somewhere between borderline All-Star and All-NBA 3rd team, and that he's probably be retired by 2022......so he's definitely proven me wrong on at least half of that.
But---from my own experience---I'm not sure that age-related degradation is a linear slope.......seems like it begins to curve downward after a certain age.

Lebron----between his height, strength, passing/vision, and ability to maybe hit the occasional trey----has the potential to "re-tool" or re-define himself and be a valuable role player on into his early 40s [like serious value, not just early 40s Vince Carter]......just don't know if he'll want to keep going if he can no longer ball like one of the league's elite.

But at any rate.....any dynasty is going to be of a very short variety.

[magicman1978]

Also does anyone here still buy into the weak East narrative? I never did but this run might've changed some minds I imagine. Dude is thoroughly outplaying the best the West has to offer at 35.

I mean the East was fairly weak, but it shouldn't diminish the fact Lebron owned the East. You can only beat who's in front of you.

Like Joey Wheeler put it, it's mainly the narrative that he owned the East because it was super weak. There've been some takes such as "place any Western superstar in Lebron's place and they achieve the same results".
The East may be weaker, but among active players, nobody but Lebron is walking through it like he did.

Looking at what he's doing at 35 in the West with a good cast, and how Harden, Kawhi and Giannis have flamed out, it just tells me that prime Lebron in the West would do the same thing he's done in the East. It's not as simple as just being a superstar.

It wouldn't be the same thing in the West. He lost to teams from the West in the finals. Which means if he were in the West, he'd probably lose before the finals.

[Mazter]

It wouldn't be the same thing in the West. He lost to teams from the West in the finals. Which means if he were in the West, he'd probably lose before the finals.

He lost to the West in the Finals with an East cast. If he would be in the West, I'm assuming it would be with a Western cast?

[Baski]

I mean the East was fairly weak, but it shouldn't diminish the fact Lebron owned the East. You can only beat who's in front of you.

Like Joey Wheeler put it, it's mainly the narrative that he owned the East because it was super weak. There've been some takes such as "place any Western superstar in Lebron's place and they achieve the same results".
The East may be weaker, but among active players, nobody but Lebron is walking through it like he did.

Looking at what he's doing at 35 in the West with a good cast, and how Harden, Kawhi and Giannis have flamed out, it just tells me that prime Lebron in the West would do the same thing he's done in the East. It's not as simple as just being a superstar.

It wouldn't be the same thing in the West. He lost to teams from the West in the finals. Which means if he were in the West, he'd probably lose before the finals.

If for some bizarre reason he and the exact same Cavs roster get transported to the West then sure. However Lebron in the West with a great supporting cast (which is far more likely if he's in the West) runs through it just like he's done in the East. Put him on any of the Harden's Rockets (minus Harden), AD's Pelicans, the Spurs (minus Kawhi), 17-19 Nuggets, GSW minus Curry and KD, OKC minus Westbrook, lob city Clips, and it's a wrap.
I get the need to lionize the West but I'm fully convinced it wouldn't make a difference unless he were on a bottom 5 team and weirdly refused to leave for a good one. Consistently being head and shoulders above everyone else on the court for 40 mins counts for a lot, as does actually being a good leader.