The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 7)

[PaulieWal]

I know the situations were different, but anyone else find it hilarious that the Clips gave up more for PG than the Lakers did for AD?

Oh it always was.

In the Clippers' defense, that appears to have been the only way to get Kawhi, and it appears that the trading partner (OKC) absolutely understood they had the Clippers over a barrel.

Right at this time I find myself really knocking Kawhi hard specifically because it doesn't seem like he was even interested in George specifically, he just wanted another superstar, and the way George played last year made him qualify. He doesn't have done an evaluation of what he actually needed in order to thrive. He seems to have thought that playing for Pop and Nurse was normal, and that if he had another superstar next to him things would only be easier. He plays the game as individualist, he leads like an individualist, and evaluates team needs like an individualist, and it absolutely burned him here.

I've been very critical of LeBron at various points in his career and do not consider the Laker F.O. to be all that competent so I don't want to be too rosy here, but it really seems to me that LeBron had a good sense of why AD would be a great fit for him, and now that seems to be making all the difference.

Of course, it's entirely possible that different match ups would've yielded very different results. The Clippers can absolutely be argued to have been built to take on LeBron, and so maybe in another universe they do so and win and we see things differently.

What's undeniable though is that the Clippers' fit looked clunky out there, and guys seemed uncertain and unconfident. The Lakers by contrast are getting malcontents to look their best again. That stuff matters.

Funny thing is, with the way the Bucks season has gone and Giannis's recent comments about his agents putting him in the best place to win, either in Milwaukee or on another team, there's a chance he asks for a trade, and if the Clippers hadn't unloaded the clip for PG, they could have put together the best package in the league for Giannis.

But even now, they could probably put together a PG/Zubac/Shamet etc package for Embiid, but might be hesitant given how much importance Kawhi placed on getting PG.

DOes the fit betwee Giannis and KL even work though? I still see the same issues on the floor, no real playmaker, and no floor general. If anything now the spacing is worse, you still have to respect PG from the 3.

[JordansBulls]

I know the situations were different, but anyone else find it hilarious that the Clips gave up more for PG than the Lakers did for AD?

Oh it always was.

In the Clippers' defense, that appears to have been the only way to get Kawhi, and it appears that the trading partner (OKC) absolutely understood they had the Clippers over a barrel.

Right at this time I find myself really knocking Kawhi hard specifically because it doesn't seem like he was even interested in George specifically, he just wanted another superstar, and the way George played last year made him qualify. He doesn't have done an evaluation of what he actually needed in order to thrive. He seems to have thought that playing for Pop and Nurse was normal, and that if he had another superstar next to him things would only be easier. He plays the game as individualist, he leads like an individualist, and evaluates team needs like an individualist, and it absolutely burned him here.

I've been very critical of LeBron at various points in his career and do not consider the Laker F.O. to be all that competent so I don't want to be too rosy here, but it really seems to me that LeBron had a good sense of why AD would be a great fit for him, and now that seems to be making all the difference.

Of course, it's entirely possible that different match ups would've yielded very different results. The Clippers can absolutely be argued to have been built to take on LeBron, and so maybe in another universe they do so and win and we see things differently.

What's undeniable though is that the Clippers' fit looked clunky out there, and guys seemed uncertain and unconfident. The Lakers by contrast are getting malcontents to look their best again. That stuff matters.

Funny thing is, with the way the Bucks season has gone and Giannis's recent comments about his agents putting him in the best place to win, either in Milwaukee or on another team, there's a chance he asks for a trade, and if the Clippers hadn't unloaded the clip for PG, they could have put together the best package in the league for Giannis.

But even now, they could probably put together a PG/Zubac/Shamet etc package for Embiid, but might be hesitant given how much importance Kawhi placed on getting PG.

Giannis in Miami, Toronto or GS makes the most sense unless they get CP3 next year. Maybe Houston as an outside chance.

[MisterHibachi]

I'm a Bill Simmons fan but the guy REALLY hates LeBron AND the Lakers so much that having them be the same thing AND looking like heavy favorites right now is making him generate some of his worst takes ever.

He literally said in a podcast that he expects a 2004 Pistons-Lakers type series with Heat-Lakers his only justification is that the Heat are deep and will be underdogs.

I can't believe he compared the most dysfunctional Laker team to ever make the Finals with two warring stars (neither of whom were playing at their best) to this perfectly oiled machine that has LeBron and AD absolutely killing it.

This team is more like the 2001 Lakers than any other Laker team before it.

His brain is completely broken re LeBron and the Lakers right now. He kept saying Kawhi is the best playoff guy in the league right now and after the Clippers lost, he tried arguing for Jokic being the top guy in the league over LeBron.

It's also funny, he keeps saying Lakers have had the easiest path ever, but even then keeps picking their opponents and making the "the opponent's 3-10 is better than the Lakers" argument. Picks every team against them but still says the Lakers haven't been tested yet.

[MisterHibachi]

Oh it always was.

In the Clippers' defense, that appears to have been the only way to get Kawhi, and it appears that the trading partner (OKC) absolutely understood they had the Clippers over a barrel.

Right at this time I find myself really knocking Kawhi hard specifically because it doesn't seem like he was even interested in George specifically, he just wanted another superstar, and the way George played last year made him qualify. He doesn't have done an evaluation of what he actually needed in order to thrive. He seems to have thought that playing for Pop and Nurse was normal, and that if he had another superstar next to him things would only be easier. He plays the game as individualist, he leads like an individualist, and evaluates team needs like an individualist, and it absolutely burned him here.

I've been very critical of LeBron at various points in his career and do not consider the Laker F.O. to be all that competent so I don't want to be too rosy here, but it really seems to me that LeBron had a good sense of why AD would be a great fit for him, and now that seems to be making all the difference.

Of course, it's entirely possible that different match ups would've yielded very different results. The Clippers can absolutely be argued to have been built to take on LeBron, and so maybe in another universe they do so and win and we see things differently.

What's undeniable though is that the Clippers' fit looked clunky out there, and guys seemed uncertain and unconfident. The Lakers by contrast are getting malcontents to look their best again. That stuff matters.

Funny thing is, with the way the Bucks season has gone and Giannis's recent comments about his agents putting him in the best place to win, either in Milwaukee or on another team, there's a chance he asks for a trade, and if the Clippers hadn't unloaded the clip for PG, they could have put together the best package in the league for Giannis.

But even now, they could probably put together a PG/Zubac/Shamet etc package for Embiid, but might be hesitant given how much importance Kawhi placed on getting PG.

DOes the fit betwee Giannis and KL even work though? I still see the same issues on the floor, no real playmaker, and no floor general. If anything now the spacing is worse, you still have to respect PG from the 3.

I mean, the defense would be disgusting and Giannis gets pushed to his more natural #2 spot on offense. They would just need a floor general type to really unlock their potential, same problem as they as have now, but at least the defense wouldn't be a problem. Plus, I'm of the opinion that talent always makes it work and Giannis is a better player than PG by a mile. And who knows, maybe if they aren't negotiating against a deadline they could even save some of those picks and trade them for a point guard.

On a similar note, I would be very interested to see how a Kawhi/Embiid pairing would work. And a Simmons/PG one as well. Doubt it happens, but it would be really crazy. Especially for the Lakers, because Embiid gives AD some real trouble.

[Doctor MJ]

No, that's not what I'm saying. Being wrong is normal, happens to everyone in all areas, let alone sports debate, I'm proven wrong about sports many times every year. But intelligent people change their views once new evidence comes in.

It was clear to me as soon as the trade was made that the Lakers were going to waltz the playoffs (no hindsight, I said it on this very website), it wasn't so clear for many other people. That's ok, I was higher on AD and his synergy with Lebron than most people; but then the games happened and surely by now it became clear that yeah the Lakers are clearly superior to the rest of the league and Lebron winning isn't some hero overcoming all odds story? In fact "Lebron winning" is a very questionable narrative in itself at best, since AD's role in that victory is an enormous one.

Pre-season, many people thought the Clippers would win and the Lakers were going to be a low seed in the West. Ok. But this has proven to be completely off base and based on very faulty premises (Kawhi being untouchable, AD a stat padding loser...), so why would credit be attributed to Lebron on the basis of this assessment?

Again, you're not realizing that everyone here has already perfectly diagnosed what you're doing. You keep saying "No, I'm not" and then doing it again.

That's lovely you knew the Lakers would waltz through the playoffs, I hope you bet a million bucks on it ahead of time because obviously to the rest of the world it was not so obvious. If you believed as you did and came to the right conclusion because you're so smart, then be smart enough to listen to us as we try to explain something obvious to everyone but you.

This discussion is being severely hindered by your combativeness/need to be right. I concede: you know 1000x about basketball than I do and I'm an idiot. Do you want a list of all my wrong basketball takes to corroborate this? Now maybe we can get this unnecessary dick measuring contest out of the way and focus more on substance?

Pre-season, the Clippers were favorites to win and the lakers were expected to be a low seed, ok, we've established this. Do you believe these expectations were realistic or grounded in solid premises/reality? Conversely, do you think this should be the baseline to judge Lebron and other players and teams? The Utah Jazz were expected to outperform the Lakers this season, is this seriously the baseline we're going to use to evaluate players? Or should we maybe adjust expectations based on what transpired on the court?

Are we really going to stick with "Clippers were the favorites and Lakers overcame the odds to win" as a huge achievement by Lebron narrative?

Let's go with a different example: the Warriors in 2015 weren't expected to win by almost anyone. Then they won and began a run; what would be the appropriate reaction? 1) Wow, they totally defied the odds, Curry GOAT and better than Lebron (who was expected to win) now or 2) Hmm ok looking back with new evidence available, we should have seen this coming?

I think what LeBron has done with the Lakers right now appears to be one of his crowning achievements - though it's not over yet, so we'll see. I had serious concerns about the Laker team based on the fact that on the whole the Laker front office has been a bunch of drooling monkeys and they were signing has-been players that did more harm than good in roughly 29 other teams.

I also think that AD has translated to the Laker context considerably better than I expected. Some people called this, I did not.

LeBron and company seem to be in the process of proving that underrated them by a good deal.

Perhaps I should have led with this when you first responded, but you didn't ask why I thought these things. You asserted I was illogical and made various condescending statements about those who didn't see this coming, then after several back and forths just now said the problem was that I was the combative one who had a "need to be right" even as I was explaining that not all of us were right like you on this before the season. Literally, everything I've been writing here has been saying over and over again "I was not able to predict this like you were", and yet you think I'm the one who needs to be right? C'mon man.

If you want people to elaborate on their thoughts without being combative, then don't lead with combative language. Just ask them to elaborate.

[JordansBulls]

I'm a Bill Simmons fan but the guy REALLY hates LeBron AND the Lakers so much that having them be the same thing AND looking like heavy favorites right now is making him generate some of his worst takes ever.

He literally said in a podcast that he expects a 2004 Pistons-Lakers type series with Heat-Lakers his only justification is that the Heat are deep and will be underdogs.

I can't believe he compared the most dysfunctional Laker team to ever make the Finals with two warring stars (neither of whom were playing at their best) to this perfectly oiled machine that has LeBron and AD absolutely killing it.

This team is more like the 2001 Lakers than any other Laker team before it.

His brain is completely broken re LeBron and the Lakers right now. He kept saying Kawhi is the best playoff guy in the league right now and after the Clippers lost, he tried arguing for Jokic being the top guy in the league over LeBron.

It's also funny, he keeps saying Lakers have had the easiest path ever, but even then keeps picking their opponents and making the "the opponent's 3-10 is better than the Lakers" argument. Picks every team against them but still says the Lakers haven't been tested yet.

If anything it should be AD who had the best stats on the team in the season overall and analytics as well.

[Doctor MJ]

DOes the fit betwee Giannis and KL even work though? I still see the same issues on the floor, no real playmaker, and no floor general. If anything now the spacing is worse, you still have to respect PG from the 3.

Great question. Not saying I'd turn down a chance to get Giannis if I were the Clippers, but this is something I was noting before the Bubble:

People seemed to have forgotten that Giannis' rise to stardom came with him playing on-ball despite not being a particularly gifted shooter or passer. While I thought the Bucks had a good shot at the title, I was skeptical about the ability to have immediate synergy between Giannis and most other stars.

If I were to have Giannis join Kawhi, I'd Giannis to have an expectation that in the half-court, he'd have to develop his off-ball game.

Defensively though, beautiful combo. Kawhi is an individual defender who shows weakness when the game is revealed to be a team game. Giannis is a team defender. Chocolate and peanut butter.

[ardee]

I'm a Bill Simmons fan but the guy REALLY hates LeBron AND the Lakers so much that having them be the same thing AND looking like heavy favorites right now is making him generate some of his worst takes ever.

He literally said in a podcast that he expects a 2004 Pistons-Lakers type series with Heat-Lakers his only justification is that the Heat are deep and will be underdogs.

I can't believe he compared the most dysfunctional Laker team to ever make the Finals with two warring stars (neither of whom were playing at their best) to this perfectly oiled machine that has LeBron and AD absolutely killing it.

This team is more like the 2001 Lakers than any other Laker team before it.

I don't want to hate on the guy because he's worth a few $100MM and has built a huge media empire but as my understanding of basketball gets better, I am realizing he's just a more polished and slicker Skip Bayless. He knows the history of the game but as an analyst I don't think he's worth anything. It reminds me of when Mark Cuban asked Skip why do you play a zone in the NBA and Skip legit did not know the answer

Simmons is basically that but he just doesn't do outrageous hot takes and is a pop culture savant.

I would disagree, he's definitely smarter than Skip. He's not an out and out Xs and Os savant like Lowe but he HAS progressed with the times. You won't hear him saying "clutch gene" nonsense. Like Heej says, he understands the game on a macro level and his personal relationships with players give him a fair bit of insight. He just isn't top level at breaking down what is physically happening on the court during game time though: not to say he's bad at it, he's just not Lowe or ElGee. I don't listen to him for that though. Him and Russilo are just funny, entertaining guys who love basketball and make cardio time go by faster.

[ardee]

I'm a Bill Simmons fan but the guy REALLY hates LeBron AND the Lakers so much that having them be the same thing AND looking like heavy favorites right now is making him generate some of his worst takes ever.

He literally said in a podcast that he expects a 2004 Pistons-Lakers type series with Heat-Lakers his only justification is that the Heat are deep and will be underdogs.

I can't believe he compared the most dysfunctional Laker team to ever make the Finals with two warring stars (neither of whom were playing at their best) to this perfectly oiled machine that has LeBron and AD absolutely killing it.

This team is more like the 2001 Lakers than any other Laker team before it.

His brain is completely broken re LeBron and the Lakers right now. He kept saying Kawhi is the best playoff guy in the league right now and after the Clippers lost, he tried arguing for Jokic being the top guy in the league over LeBron.

It's also funny, he keeps saying Lakers have had the easiest path ever, but even then keeps picking their opponents and making the "the opponent's 3-10 is better than the Lakers" argument. Picks every team against them but still says the Lakers haven't been tested yet.

I just listened to his podcast with Jackie MacMullan earlier today and he barely even mentioned the Lakers. I think he's so angry he just avoids talking about them

He'll have to get around to it eventually lol. Ryen will bring it up the next time they talk.

[Homer38]

Click on this link to see all of his tweet who doubted of the lakers all year long!

Read on Twitter

This is funny!

[homecourtloss]

Click on this link to see all of his tweet who doubted of the lakers all year long!

Read on Twitter

This is funny!

Just like almost all his other runs, there’s doubt BEFORE and DURING and then after the fact, it’s “oh, it’s no big deal.”

Smh.

If he makes the finals it will be 10 finals as the man spread over 14 years and on 4 vastly different teams.
If they win he will have won with 3 completely different teams, coaches and systems while playing 3 different positions.
Compared to that MJ would look even more like a one-trick pony who won only with the same coach, same role/position, same #2, same system, same conference, same diluted league + similar 50ish-win supporting cast (and outside of that won only a single playoff game [barely]).

Add to that fact that he’s played in different eras in which the game is played differently (ugly mid 2000s ball, mixed with space and pace and then to what we have now), but he’s still at the top of the impact metrics. An absolutely overlooked achievement hand waived away by “eAsTeRn CoNfErEnCe” and “sUpEr TeAm.”

[xb3at band1tx]

Bill Simmons has gone off the deep end since the Lakers got good again. He's been trashing the supporting cast all year, his recent pod he talked more about the 2011 NBA finals then the current Lakers in the WCF lol

Dude revels in historic chokejobs and besides the day it happenend, he hasn't mentioned Kawhi's Game 7 after championing him as the best player in the world all year.

[Dupp]

As much of a legacy boost a win this season will be for lebron it’s gonna be seen as as big as a negative if the Lakers don’t win now. Another finals loss, this tine as favourites won’t go down well at all

[D.Brasco]

[LA Bird]

LeBron starting the game with 12 points on 5-6 shooting while the rest of Lakers is shooting 0-12...

[MisterHibachi]

Danny Green back???

[MisterHibachi]

AD trying to make statements against Jokic.

[yoyoboy]

This team is so good. Even the role players are so active on defense.

[MisterHibachi]

AD is COOKING!!

[thebigbird]

Looks like Bron’s ankle is ok.