Jamal Murray

[TheSuzerain]

Lavine has star-level scoring talent and is very much a peer of Mitchell/Murray in that regard.

But he's worse in other areas like defense (clearly worse than Mitchell) or floor-game/Basketball IQ (clearly worse than both).

Which I expect to improve with better teammates and coaching.

That seems like a fool's expectation. Lavine has had plenty of opportunity to show floor-game and vision and smart decision-making. He's never done it.

He's entering his 7th year.

Do you people honestly think the coaching staff was telling Lavine/White not to pass to teammates? That didn't happen.

[TheFinishSniper]

Cant say much but there was nobody on Bulls to pass a ball up. To give up someone ball that person needs to be able to create, shoot or move without ball. Nobody on Bulls was capable of that

[Chi town]

Lavine has star-level scoring talent and is very much a peer of Mitchell/Murray in that regard.

But he's worse in other areas like defense (clearly worse than Mitchell) or floor-game/Basketball IQ (clearly worse than both).

Which I expect to improve with better teammates and coaching.

That seems like a fool's expectation. Lavine has had plenty of opportunity to show floor-game and vision and smart decision-making. He's never done it.

He's entering his 7th year.

Do you people honestly think the coaching staff was telling Lavine/White not to pass to teammates? That didn't happen.

I don’t. He’s been improving and last year his best teammates were hurt most of the season. Give him healthy rotation level players and a better coach and he will be right there w Mitchell Booker and Murray.

[Stratmaster]

Of course it’s not sustainable.

It’s your big statement that the “bubble is having a huge effect on shooters as a whole.”

Not saying it’s not trueish. Would love to see the data and the reasons why?
- No fans, less pressure
- Boxed in gym w screens that helps w depth perception
- Noise
- More focus in bubble

All interesting.

I don't know if percentages are up. I know that the bubble game does seem to be all launching 3 point shots, even worse than it already was.

Logically, I think simply shooting on the same court and at the same baskets, game after game, with no crowd variations should improve overall shooting. I know I was a lot better shooter in the gym I always played in versus others. However, all kinds of things that seem logical don't prove out when you look at the numbers so I could be wrong.

Good points on same gym.

Did you play HS or College ball?

Nah. Don't want to sound like I was a player. High school but rode the bench. Quit after Sophomore year. Then grew almost 10 inches my junior and senior year.

Most of my hours of basketball were on city playgrounds and in rec gyms after high school. Was way more comfortable shooting on my own then someone else's.

Had I known the growth spurt was coming and I wasn't gong to be 5'6" forever I would have stuck wth it

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[Hold That]

I feel like Zach Lavine is already there, and doesn’t have the nuggets coaching or supporting cast.. I honestly don’t see that in Coby White.. he isn’t the athlete that Murray is nor is he as long.

[TheSuzerain]

Cant say much but there was nobody on Bulls to pass a ball up. To give up someone ball that person needs to be able to create, shoot or move without ball. Nobody on Bulls was capable of that

Bull ****. It's basketball. Good passing and vision can be shown in any situation.

Look at the 2017 Bulls. Horrible talent up and down the roster. You could still watch the games and realize Butler and Rondo can pass the ball.

[TheSuzerain]

Take Devonte Graham as well. Hornets roster is very bad.

And yet in the very first game of the Bulls season, he put in a better playmaking performance than Lavine has ever had.

Vision/passing for lead guards is absolutely not something that is hidden by teammates or coaching. You can maybe make the argument for bigs playmaking which is more contextual.

But for the lead guard with the keys to the offense? What you see is what you get.

[Krazykiwi]

Jamal Murray is more explosive , athletic than Coby , also with better handle .

[RedBulls23]

I remember when we drafted Coby, some of you were comparing him to Murray. I don't know how accurate of a comparison that is as Murray is a smooth player. But they are both scoring combo guards and the way Murray's playing rn is further evidence that maybe a traditional PG isn't needed. Maybe Coby could be our PG of the future and we could use this pick on a wing or frontcourt player

the Nuggets pretty much have a 7 foot PG in Jokic. That's why they can get away with not having a traditional PG.

The Bulls absolutely need to have a lead initiator that you can rely on in late game situations. Doesn't necessarily have to be a literal PG.

[Ugly Duckling]

I remember when we drafted Coby, some of you were comparing him to Murray. I don't know how accurate of a comparison that is as Murray is a smooth player. But they are both scoring combo guards and the way Murray's playing rn is further evidence that maybe a traditional PG isn't needed. Maybe Coby could be our PG of the future and we could use this pick on a wing or frontcourt player

the Nuggets pretty much have a 7 foot PG in Jokic. That's why they can get away with not having a traditional PG.

The Bulls absolutely need to have a lead initiator that you can rely on in late game situations. Doesn't necessarily have to be a literal PG.

Yeah I totally agree. Maybe someone like Avdija

[TheSuzerain]

Maybe someone better than Avdija if we're planning on winning anything

[kingkirk]

I remember when we drafted Coby, some of you were comparing him to Murray. I don't know how accurate of a comparison that is as Murray is a smooth player. But they are both scoring combo guards and the way Murray's playing rn is further evidence that maybe a traditional PG isn't needed. Maybe Coby could be our PG of the future and we could use this pick on a wing or frontcourt player

Murray can be Murray because they have the passing god in Jokic who really runs their offense.

Murrary without a primary creator isn't as good as he's showing now. Same will be true for Coby if he has to extend himself into something he isn't.

[Kurt Heimlich]

Jamal Murray is more explosive , athletic than Coby , also with better handle .

Not gonna lie your fake news Giannis thread didn't help your credibility with me specifically, but I'm curious to hear your analysis how Jamal as more "explosive, athletic...[with better handle]"? If anything I'd say the the most distinct difference between Jamal and Coby is Jamal's proven shot making ability in a bigger sample size, especially in meaningful games. But maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

[kingkirk]

Jamal Murray is more explosive , athletic than Coby , also with better handle .

Not gonna lie your fake news Giannis thread didn't help your credibility with me specifically, but I'm curious to hear your analysis how Jamal as more "explosive, athletic...[with better handle]"? If anything I'd say the the most distinct difference between Jamal and Coby is Jamal's proven shot making ability in a bigger sample size, especially in meaningful games. But maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

Jamal has more vertical pop whereas Coby is more straight line burst.

Murray has some underrated bounce and has thrown down a few huge dunks. I'm not sure we'll ever see that from Coby, who is more likely to finish through than above a defense.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Coby needs to better his handle and passing to be a real starting PG. He doesn't need to be a 6-7 APG guy, but he needs to run the offense well without turning it over, and I haven't seen that much yet. Right now he's a combo guard off the bench.

[wonderboy2]

Coby White is has more speed and quickness than Murray. He also has more lateral quickness. Murray probably has more hops

[drosereturn]

Lavine has star-level scoring talent and is very much a peer of Mitchell/Murray in that regard.

But he's worse in other areas like defense (clearly worse than Mitchell) or floor-game/Basketball IQ (clearly worse than both).

Which I expect to improve with better teammates and coaching.

That seems like a fool's expectation. Lavine has had plenty of opportunity to show floor-game and vision and smart decision-making. He's never done it.

He's entering his 7th year.

Do you people honestly think the coaching staff was telling Lavine/White not to pass to teammates? That didn't happen.

Yeah like how the hell do you even develop a 7th yr veteran claiming he is a number 1 option so full of himself he is a self proclaimed superstar? Unless Boylen really told him to go mess Lauri up to get his 30 pts, thats on him for not engaging the big men to participate scoring. He had close to 35 usg this ceiling and pretty much played much worse version of jimmy iso ball I hated to see all season long. I remember supporters claiming he was becoming a superstar with a career high .130 win share but look what happened at the end. Lavine never passed my eye test for extended games and never will.

Better teammates doesnt magically make you better. Murray really worked hard under Jokic to let him do his own thing which is a huge sacrifice for a ball dominant guard. You need to still make the right passes and Lauri and Carter are still NBA caliber players that can finish if made the right pass. But he imitated Kobe and got inspired like Tatum did and failed thinking he is some savior of a great franchise. Lavine can have 4 hof and still wont avg over 5 assists. To me, Lavine is done as a finished product esp that tunnel vision just like Simmons who cannot shoot a single 3pt to avoid getting embarrassed.

[drosereturn]

Jamal Murray is more explosive , athletic than Coby , also with better handle .

Not gonna lie your fake news Giannis thread didn't help your credibility with me specifically, but I'm curious to hear your analysis how Jamal as more "explosive, athletic...[with better handle]"? If anything I'd say the the most distinct difference between Jamal and Coby is Jamal's proven shot making ability in a bigger sample size, especially in meaningful games. But maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

Murray was never a bad shotmaker or tunnel visoned like White.
I know the average cannot notice the difference, but subtle things can really add up a lot when Murray does everything better than White by a tiny fraction. Its the NBA where everyone is talented compared to us YMCA hoopers. But there are those who are slightly more talented and learn faster and Canadian superstar Murray happens to be in that cateogry. Same with SGA. A lot of international prospects are just better fundamentally than the American counterparts. Its not the 90s anymore where someone from UNC is an automatic superstar. Those days are long gone and White was never close to Jordan despite praised as the best scorer. Not saying White is trash but he has too many weakness like Lavine to become a great player I wouldnt waste my time.

IMO, AK already knows their future clear as a crystal ball which is why he was brought in to clear up this mess. Its a matter of when they get disposed for trade value purposes and use them to convert into future MPJ, Bols who are the ultimate high risk high reward superstar type ceiling players. Only if theres no buy low superstar prospects he will take guys like Murray who has still very high upside. I am a big fan of AK bc he doesnt settle for merely decent players but truly aspires championships like me and picks the best talent and figure out the team later. He will draft 5 James Wisemans just like the Nuggets 5 7ft lineup that terrorizes a decent Washington team if he is bpa. If only he had ultimate power and 200mil spending authority Bulls will win a championship in the next 5 yrs, possibly a dynasty. Just look at those Nuggets dominating every team and this is while Bol and MPJ are babies while Millsap was a terrible Boozer level signing. Imgaine they had KD as FA instead and they would be next GSW standard big bully ball.

[Andi Obst]

Yeah like how the hell do you even develop a 7th yr veteran claiming he is a number 1 option so full of himself he is a self proclaimed superstar?

I'm critical of LaVine myself, but that narrative is getting old. What exactly indicates that LaVine is "full of himself"? He has obvious flaws, but for some people he can't do anything right.

Its the NBA where everyone is talented compared to us YMCA hoopers. But there are those who are slightly more talented and learn faster and Canadian superstar Murray happens to be in that cateogry. Same with SGA. A lot of international prospects are just better fundamentally than the American counterparts. Its not the 90s anymore where someone from UNC is an automatic superstar. Those days are long gone and White was never close to Jordan despite praised as the best scorer.

This is so random and pointless, I read it in Chris Webber's voice.

[Leslie Forman]

Coby might eventually be a high volume scorer, but…he does not have this kind of athleticism in his locker.

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