Jokic travel or not?

[NyKnicks1714]

The pivot isn't a travel but he traveled right before that.

[DarkAzcura]

In what world can you lift your planted pivot foot without shooting the ball? You have to jump off your planted foot.

The NCAA rule book says this:

After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:

a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;

The NBA rule book says this:

If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

Both clearly indicate that the pivot can be lifted, but you must shoot or pass before putting it back down. This is exactly why things like step throughs and lay ups are legal. NBA clarified the rules by talking about steps, but back in the day, traveling rules were always defined by pivots, which included things like lay ups. The NCAA rule book is still written this way.

Is this a new rule? So if I pick up my dribble, pivot off my right foot, and then lift my right foot and just stand there with my right foot raised in the air, that's not a travel?

It’s not a new rule; it’s always been this way.

No, that wouldn’t be a travel. It would look weird, though, and I’m sure a bunch of refs would call you on it because it seems like most people call travels based on feel rather than what the actual rule is.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/travel-on-the-perimeter-lifts-and-steps-with-pivot-foot/

Here’s a video back when Lebron was on the Cavs (first run), and they don’t call it a travel until he put his left foot back down. Even the video talks about the fact that if he released the ball before putting the left foot back down, he would be good.

So yeah, we are just going to ignore the rules then.

Lol at laughing at black and white rules just because it doesn’t fit the mold of whoever taught you the game (incorrectly).

you can lift your pivot foot but you can't take steps with your non-pivot foot while doing that (which jokic did after he picked up his pivot foot).

otherwise you could hop to the basket on your non-pivot foot and it still be legal.

You are always taking a step when you lift your pivot. You are literally taking all of your weight off one foot to put it on another. That’s a step. There is nothing in the rule book that talks about what you are saying. Jokic lifted his pivot, and released the ball before bringing the pivot back down. End of story.

Also, with your bolded, that would never be legal...because you are jumping without releasing the ball. The rule I am describing does not allow you to hop to the basket. That is a misinterpretation.

[Duke4life831]

It's legal. see explanation at 2 minute mark of this vid

Watch on YouTube

</thread>

[SNPA]

The pivot isn't a travel but he traveled right before that.

This.

The move isn't a travel. But he traveled on that move.

There is a very small hop step when he picks up his dribble, before the two footed jump stop (not a traditional jump stop, but watch and you'll get it).

This particular move is technically a travel.

But it would be wicked hard to catch in real time.

[infinite11285]

It's legal. see explanation at 2 minute mark of this vid

Watch on YouTube

</thread>

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

[DarkAzcura]

It's legal. see explanation at 2 minute mark of this vid

Watch on YouTube

</thread>

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

When people first understand this rule, they always think there is some weird advantage with it. Trust me if you are just going to sit there on one foot for 8 seconds, a defender is going to eat you alive anyway, lol. You are getting no advantage from this.

Kevin McHale’s step throughs back in the 80s weren’t legal because he was jumping off both feet at the same time. He was always leaning forward and putting his weight on his non pivot. Even if it’s for a split second, he is clearly lifting his pivot before shooting.

[Egg Nog]

Jokic didn't travel.

You're allowed to lift your pivot foot as long as you get rid of the ball before it comes back down.

This is the exact same thing Candace Parker was talking about with KG when she was right and he was wrong about the step-through move.

[spacemonkey]

You are always taking a step when you lift your pivot. You are literally taking all of your weight off one foot to put it on another. That’s a step. There is nothing in the rule book that talks about what you are saying. Jokic lifted his pivot, and released the ball before bringing the pivot back down. End of story.

It's honestly very simple. This is the same argument everyone had when the euro first appeared. It's plant/pivot (step 1) + step 2. Plant can leave the floor but only if the ball is released before it touches the floor.

Or does everybody here surprised at this think a euro is a travel? Or a layup? Or a dunk?

I can see some confusion in the sense that some people thought a 'plant' (aka the first step) was something separate from 2 steps, and therefore another step couldn't be taken, but by the rules, that's wrong and always has been.

[Duke4life831]

It's legal. see explanation at 2 minute mark of this vid

Watch on YouTube

</thread>

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

My guess is because you arent technically switching your pivot foot until you put your foot back down. So ya if the rule is you cant switch youre pivot foot, this makes sense because he technically isnt switching it as long as that foot doesnt come back down.

[whitehops]

You are always taking a step when you lift your pivot. You are literally taking all of your weight off one foot to put it on another. That’s a step. There is nothing in the rule book that talks about what you are saying. Jokic lifted his pivot, and released the ball before bringing the pivot back down. End of story.

so is he not establishing a new pivot foot when he put his right foot down after he lifted his left foot?

[DarkAzcura]

You are always taking a step when you lift your pivot. You are literally taking all of your weight off one foot to put it on another. That’s a step. There is nothing in the rule book that talks about what you are saying. Jokic lifted his pivot, and released the ball before bringing the pivot back down. End of story.

It's honestly very simple. This is the same argument everyone had when the euro first appeared. It's plant/pivot (step 1) + step 2. Plant can leave the floor but only if the ball is released before it touches the floor.

Or does everybody here surprised at this think a euro is a travel? Or a layup? Or a dunk?

I can see some confusion in the sense that some people thought a 'plant' (aka the first step) was something separate from 2 steps, and therefore another step couldn't be taken, but by the rules, that's wrong and always has been.

Yeah, it’s funny but old school rule books were always defined by plants and pivots. Never talk about steps. So you have to interpret the wording into how we take normal layups. Exactly as you wrote it. First step is your pivot. Second step is you lifting your pivot to go up for the lay up.

You are always taking a step when you lift your pivot. You are literally taking all of your weight off one foot to put it on another. That’s a step. There is nothing in the rule book that talks about what you are saying. Jokic lifted his pivot, and released the ball before bringing the pivot back down. End of story.

so is he not establishing a new pivot foot when he put his right foot down after he lifted his left foot?

A new pivot isn’t established unless your old pivot is brought back down. That would be a travel. See the video posted above. Referee for 19 years, check the 2 minute mark. Describes exactly what we are talking about, but the player is taking a step forward rather than backward like Jokic.

This is how layups are legal. Step 1 is you establishing your pivot. Step 2 is you releasing/lifting your pivot to go into your shot. You can’t take a step 3 because that would be you putting your pivot back down.

[SNPA]

</thread>

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

When people first understand this rule, they always think there is some weird advantage with it. Trust me if you are just going to sit there on one foot for 8 seconds, a defender is going to eat you alive anyway, lol. You are getting no advantage from this.

Kevin McHale’s step throughs back in the 80s weren’t legal because he was jumping off both feet at the same time. He was always leaning forward and putting his weight on his non pivot. Even if it’s for a split second, he is clearly lifting his pivot before shooting.

I think it raises an interesting question. An offensive player can't kick a leg out to occupy space in front of them, that’s an offensive foul if contact is made.

However, the offensive player can use his knee to occupy the same space? And then it's illegal and a foul on the defender if he hits the knee?

[bubonicphoniks]

You can pick up your pivot foot but you have to release the ball before the pivot foot comes back down.

It's the second step. What do people think picking up a dribble and taking two steps to layup is, since the first step is the pivot foot and lifts off the floor, but the jump comes off the second step?

Or do people seriously think you jump off the pivot foot?

Do a layup, do you jump off your first step or second? Now change the direction of the layup so you are fading.

Well put. Yep.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[infinite11285]

</thread>

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

My guess is because you arent technically switching your pivot foot until you put your foot back down. So ya if the rule is you cant switch youre pivot foot, this makes sense because he technically isnt switching it as long as that foot doesnt come back down.

It's weird because it's impossible to establish balance on the opposite without establishing it as a new pivot. I grew up where you can't raise your pivot/planted foot unless you're jumping off of it.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Yes he picked up his pivot foot and shot off his other foot.

That's legal you just can't put your pivot foot back down.
It's called a "step through." People do it all the time going to the rim, it just looks funny out on the perimeter going away from the hoop but it's the same move.

[DarkAzcura]

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

My guess is because you arent technically switching your pivot foot until you put your foot back down. So ya if the rule is you cant switch youre pivot foot, this makes sense because he technically isnt switching it as long as that foot doesnt come back down.

It's weird because it's impossible to establish balance on one leg without establishing it as a new pivot.

Again, you are applying your own opinions to this (not trying to offend, sorry if harsh). There’s nothing in the rule books about establishing new pivots and the like. It is as simple as, if you lift your pivot, you need to shoot or pass before it goes back down. That’s pretty much it.

Anyway, if we did discuss this point for a second, it’s pretty darn difficult to spin in circles on another foot without using the other as a way to balance. I wouldn’t agree with your opinion that a new pivot is established because a player has some level of balance on his off foot.

[infinite11285]

My guess is because you arent technically switching your pivot foot until you put your foot back down. So ya if the rule is you cant switch youre pivot foot, this makes sense because he technically isnt switching it as long as that foot doesnt come back down.

It's weird because it's impossible to establish balance on one leg without establishing it as a new pivot.

Again, you are applying your own opinions to this (not trying to offend, sorry if harsh). There’s nothing in the rule books about establishing new pivots and the like. It is as simple as, if you lift your pivot, you need to shoot or pass before it goes back down. That’s pretty much it.

No need to apologize. I'm not thin-skinned. Thanks for the info!

[magicman1978]

That's hella weird. So I can pick up my dribble, pivot, step-through, lift my pivot and hold my pivot foot in the air for 8 seconds of the shot clock while I look for a pass. I can even use my raised knee to shield myself from the defender in the process.

My guess is because you arent technically switching your pivot foot until you put your foot back down. So ya if the rule is you cant switch youre pivot foot, this makes sense because he technically isnt switching it as long as that foot doesnt come back down.

It's weird because it's impossible to establish balance on the opposite without establishing it as a new pivot. I grew up where you can't raise your pivot/planted foot unless you're jumping off of it.

Pivot means you keep one foot on the ground while moving the other. What you're thinking of is just a step.

[DarkAzcura]

It's weird because it's impossible to establish balance on one leg without establishing it as a new pivot.

Again, you are applying your own opinions to this (not trying to offend, sorry if harsh). There’s nothing in the rule books about establishing new pivots and the like. It is as simple as, if you lift your pivot, you need to shoot or pass before it goes back down. That’s pretty much it.

No need to apologize. I'm not thin-skinned. Thanks for the info!

No problem. I felt a bit harsh earlier, but thanks!

I will say after this discussion, though, you would definitely get called for it on a playground more than you should. It is honestly an awfully misunderstood rule. I believe it was Candance Parker that talked about this rule, and a bunch of NBA players called travel on her. It’s unfortunate. I think most people in Europe get this. It’s just the way fundamentals are taught here, I think.

[infinite11285]

My guess is because you arent technically switching your pivot foot until you put your foot back down. So ya if the rule is you cant switch youre pivot foot, this makes sense because he technically isnt switching it as long as that foot doesnt come back down.

It's weird because it's impossible to establish balance on the opposite without establishing it as a new pivot. I grew up where you can't raise your pivot/planted foot unless you're jumping off of it.

Pivot means you keep one foot on the ground while moving the other. What you're thinking of is just a step.

I use "pivot" and "plant" interchangeably, but you're right.