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Political Roundtable Part XXIX

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Zonkerbl
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#201 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:01 pm

dobrojim wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Lol, he really needs new material - and I'm guessing he's no younger than we are - and probably looks older - not that it matters. He certainly doesn't talk like my younger relatives who are far left. They were and are big Sanders fans but are smart enough to understand why it's vital that Biden beats Trump - which quite frankly doesn't take a lot of smarts.


We?

Maybe I underestimate (wrt age) some on the board. I guess I don't have a good feel for what your
age (Ruz) might be and that's a good thing. I'm definitely of the age that folks like
TGW like to besmirch with generalizations and the like. I do understand being pissed off,
very well in fact.

I've been pissed off since MLK and RFK were killed. Pissed off since Kent State.
Pissed off since Ford pardoned Nixon. Pissed off since Reagan became not only
elected but subsequently deified. Pissed off that Slick couldn't keep it zipped.
Pissed off that the SC installed Fratboy as POTUS. And yeah I'm pissed that
so many of my generation (boomers) either never shared the idealism of the 60s
or became disillusioned in the lack of progress. Didn't change my own beliefs though.

Does all that hint that I might have a few years on you Ruz? LOL.

PS - meant to start with this. Maybe the most encouraging news recently.
Bloomberg dropping a few million (pocket change for him) to pay off the
fines and fees that are today's poll taxes for FL ex-felons.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mike-bloomberg-raises-16-million-to-allow-former-felons-to-vote-in-florida/2020/09/21/6dda787e-fc5a-11ea-8d05-9beaaa91c71f_story.html


Florida made it legal to pay people to vote, nice

What's even nicer is it's only legal to pay people who are probably going to vote Democrat
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#202 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:15 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

At least the morons in the stands are wearing masks - for the most part. They really never progressed past the 1950's - when America was their ideal, and there was no such thing as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the Voting Rights Act of 1965.


Like everything Trump does it’s a performative lie. The majority of people weren’t wearing masks. The campaign just makes everyone behind Trump wear a mask for purely optics.

https://www.fayobserver.com/story/news/2020/09/21/trump-rally-draws-5-600-people-and-most-not-wearing-masks/5852576002/
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#203 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:18 pm

Zonk, fwiw - you're right. I was born near the tail end of the baby boom gen. When I said we, I meant Jim and me. My first political recollections were about the Humphrey vs Nixon presidential race - when my parents had me give out buttons and flyers for HHH and Muskie. Still remember crying when they said Nixon won. Dad said the problem was the low turnout. It's a lesson we haven't learned from.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#204 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:21 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:That has to do with institutional racism like the War on Drugs, which the Dems embraced wholeheartedly.

The only way to really start fixing institutional racism is to first address the criminal justice system, and the only way to fix that is through near abolition of the industrial prison complex and associated institutional mechanisms, which includes the police. Biden's refusal to endorse defunding the police makes me think he just doesn't get it and at his age maybe he never will.

You hit too many points for a response - so I am just going back to your point on the criminal justice system.

I don't think he would run on that even if he agrees with it. I do think that Harris having been through the churn of being a prosecutor is now fully behind reimaging our criminal justice system. And therein lies the rub - wording. Defunding vs. Reimagining.

In the Unify Platform one of the tenets is removing all for profit prisons. But we both know that doesn't go far enough. But that requires our governments (federal, local and state) to flip a switch. From prosecutors to support of the mentally ill.

Until the Ds can flip that message "tough on crime, war on drugs" = "stupid on crime" and defund to reimagine, I don't think the issue goes anywhere.

What I am saying. We need an articulate champion that can move this issue forward. I don't think that Biden can articulate that idea well enough and still get himself elected. I have hope that President Harris could do so. But my guess is that like the suffragettes, we are going to be waiting a while.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#205 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:24 pm

I want to keep this a separate post. Here in Houston the Rs were swept out in 2018 (thank you Beto) and the judges started doing away with bail and tough on crime and the war on drugs. The DA running on tough on crime and the war on drugs is now a losing mantra in our city. Of course, you still have the state of Texas to deal with...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#206 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:39 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I want to keep this a separate post. Here in Houston the Rs were swept out in 2018 (thank you Beto) and the judges started doing away with bail and tough on crime and the war on drugs. The DA running on tough on crime and the war on drugs is now a losing mantra in our city. Of course, you still have the state of Texas to deal with...


You're right that it is mainly a local issue and has to be won at the community level. So in that sense it almost doesn't matter who the President is. Get rid of institutional racism in Texas, give everyone the same opportunities regardless of skin melanin content, allow black and brown skinned people to accumulate wealth and political power and you should be pretty far along in solving the problem.

I want to say that should be easier in blue states but it hasn't happened in either California or New York. Maybe Texas really is the place where a new kind of liberalism will take root. Will be interesting to see what happens there.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#207 » by Wizardspride » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:00 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#208 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:13 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

It's like having Archie Bunker dressed up in a suit as President. That's one for the boomers.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#209 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:34 pm

Ruzious wrote:That's one for the boomers.

:rofl:
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#210 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:05 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:As far as Republicans being worse than Democrats - despite having the full advantage of living in the United States and having access to all the institutions that make this country great, blacks haven't been able to catch up to whites in terms of income or wealth. That has to do with institutional racism like the War on Drugs, which the Dems embraced wholeheartedly. Yes it's better to not be beaten up and lynched, but it's like choosing between getting your face punched and getting sat on by a 400 lb gorilla. The latter is somewhat preferable but... I mean, are you really better off rewarding the Dems for patting themselves on the back for not setting crosses on fire but still supporting the institutional racism that keeps blacks cordoned off in a separate and unequal economy?

The only way to really start fixing institutional racism is to first address the criminal justice system, and the only way to fix that is through near abolition of the industrial prison complex and associated institutional mechanisms, which includes the police. Biden's refusal to endorse defunding the police makes me think he just doesn't get it and at his age maybe he never will. And his refusal to endorse legalizing marijuana, the prohibition of which is enforced in a flagrantly racist way, doesn't fill me with confidence either.

You know how I complain that passing minimum wage laws only after the market wage has risen above the minimum wage is complete hypocritical horsecrap? I feel that way about a lot of these marginal little things that Democrats have done to pay lip service to civil rights, while ignoring the policy changes that would actually make a difference.


See I never understood the line of thinking in the bolded. Ignoring away the fact that the war on drugs was started by Republicans and support for the crime bill was in a completely different time than we have now, comparing Democrats in the 90’s to Democrats now is like saying the Bulls were a championship team in the so that means the current Bulls are now a championship team because the owner is the same and some of the people from the 90’s are still in the organization. Kamala Harris and Corey Booker do not represent the same positions as the party did in the 90’s.

It’s a very straight forward analysis. In the last 20 years the Democrats have only controlled all 3 parts of Congress for 2 years. What have Republicans done for criminal justice reform in those 18 years where they had control of all 3 branches of government? I’m genuinely asking show me all the laws and bills that have been passed in that case?

Here’s just an example of the differences in the party under Obama and everything that Trump has done to dismantle the reforms he put in place. There’s a theme developing here:

https://www.motherjones.com/anti-racism-police-protest/2020/06/barack-obama-criminal-justice-reform/

Finally let’s focus on today Zonks. Which party just passed a sweeping police reform bill that sites collecting dust in the Senate? Which party has been making reforms at the state and local level and which party is passing laws making it easier for people to kill protestors. Focus on right now, instead of falling into the same Establishment trap, it’s about having power vs not having power. Republicans have had way more power in the past 20 years and have actively made things worse. Instead of just pissing and moaning about Democrats, talk about how to get them back in power, show what has already been done and how much more can be achieved if they’re given as much power over the next 20 years as Republican have been given.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#211 » by dobrojim » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:10 pm

Alright Ruz, you are my age! I vaguely remember LBJ vs Goldwater but was way too
young to have had any knowledge of issues or policies around that election.
My parents probably voted for Nixon in 68. But were definitely afraid of my older
bro going to Nam. Archie Bunker definitely = tRump, both know nothing blowhards
although Bunker occasionally showed some trace of human decency that tRump
never does.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#212 » by dobrojim » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:13 pm

PG, agree with some of what you said but minor fact check,
the GOP has NOT controlled all three branches for 18/20
years. There, I momentarily defended the pubs.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#213 » by dobrojim » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:23 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Florida made it legal to pay people to vote, nice

What's even nicer is it's only legal to pay people who are probably going to vote Democrat


Don’t play into GOP hands.

Two things - the GOP went against the clear intent of the voters by
passing a law to keep ex felons disenfranchised.

The non partisan orgs paying off fines and fees to restore their
franchise would not be allowed to ask how they plan to vote.

Obviously they don’t really have to which is why the pubs tried
to prevent them from voting.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#214 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:39 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I want to keep this a separate post. Here in Houston the Rs were swept out in 2018 (thank you Beto) and the judges started doing away with bail and tough on crime and the war on drugs. The DA running on tough on crime and the war on drugs is now a losing mantra in our city. Of course, you still have the state of Texas to deal with...


You're right that it is mainly a local issue and has to be won at the community level. So in that sense it almost doesn't matter who the President is. Get rid of institutional racism in Texas, give everyone the same opportunities regardless of skin melanin content, allow black and brown skinned people to accumulate wealth and political power and you should be pretty far along in solving the problem.

I want to say that should be easier in blue states but it hasn't happened in either California or New York. Maybe Texas really is the place where a new kind of liberalism will take root. Will be interesting to see what happens there.

That is my hope. A new type of DA winning in cities with a "smart on crime" label.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#215 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:09 pm

dobrojim wrote:PG, agree with some of what you said but minor fact check,
the GOP has NOT controlled all three branches for 18/20
years. There, I momentarily defended the pubs.


I know that but they had power and a presence for the last 20 years. That’s the point you can’t just blame Democrats, the GOP has had a say in every single government decision in the past 20 years except for 2 years. I find it rich to somehow say Democrats (who’s party actually has more than 1 black member of Congress) don’t do anything for black people when the best the Republicans have done with a seat at the table over the past 18 years is the First Step ACT.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#216 » by dobrojim » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:35 pm

I wouldn't argue for a second that the GOP has anything to offer POCs.

I was only trying to correct the statement. Since 95, the dems have
had House control in 2006-2010 and then again in 2018-present.
Senate control I forget the exact years but for much of the last
20 years, neither party has had control of both houses simultaneously
for too long a time.

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Majority_Minority_Leaders.htm#3
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#217 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:48 pm

dobrojim wrote:Alright Ruz, you are my age! I vaguely remember LBJ vs Goldwater but was way too
young to have had any knowledge of issues or policies around that election.
My parents probably voted for Nixon in 68. But were definitely afraid of my older
bro going to Nam. Archie Bunker definitely = tRump, both know nothing blowhards
although Bunker occasionally showed some trace of human decency that tRump
never does.

Cool - I also had a brother - 7 years older - who very nearly got his number called for Nam. I remember the folks be very nervous about that. It wasn't till years later he told me he was scared shirtless. Honestly, I got no recollection about LBJ from back then.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#218 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:05 pm

Bill languishing in Congress right now is a police reform bill, not a police defunding bill, if memory serves

I haven't read it, only read articles about it so if I'm wrong I'm wrong

Making chokeholds illegal is the same as passing a minimum wage law, imo. Completely useless. Actually worse than min wage because it's also unenforceable with unlimited immunity (or whatever it's called). Tell me when the Dems propose cutting the prison population by 75% by freeing all non violent offenders and using non-incarceration solutions for half of the violent offenders.

But you make my point for me. A 21st century dem is for defunding the police and legalizing marijuana. Who did we choose to represent us? A 70 year old dude whose biggest claim to fame is authoring the crime bill that got us into this mess in the first place.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#219 » by dobrojim » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:25 pm

qualified immunity - this is or should be the number one target for elimination among
those who want reforms that would increase police accountability.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#220 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:07 pm

dobrojim wrote:qualified immunity - this is or should be the number one target for elimination among
those who want reforms that would increase police accountability.


I think the police need a little bit of protection, we've put guns in their hands and told them their job is to go out into the community and use them. Either we get rid of guns altogether so they're on a largely equal basis with the people they're interacting with, or we drastically reduce the interaction of police with the community overall.

But you can't have both unqualified immunity *and* 2.3 million incarcerated. That's a recipe for murder.
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