2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[MrFortune3]

People need to stop calling this a weak draft. Literally, every year people say that there are 3-5 actual franchise players that come out of it.

Just because you don't see a surefire legend doesn't make the draft weak, it means a team actually has to work to develop players. Which is you know, their job anyway.

It's apparently top weak. But I agree, there's like fifteen prospects that I'd be pretty happy to have in our roster (not necessarily at #4, of course)

Nearly every time there is not a "generational" talent perceived to be in the draft it's considered weak and even then when you had Davis or Zion last year it was considered weak.
Yet the talent output is always similar.

[MrFortune3]

How dare you leave Kirk off 2003

I really dislike him. To the point, I had typed his name up on the list and then took him out without realizing before I posted it
My bad, I added him back in.

[Grodoboldo]

People need to stop calling this a weak draft. Literally, every year people say that there are 3-5 actual franchise players that come out of it.

Just because you don't see a surefire legend doesn't make the draft weak, it means a team actually has to work to develop players. Which is you know, their job anyway.

It's apparently top weak. But I agree, there's like fifteen prospects that I'd be pretty happy to have in our roster (not necessarily at #4, of course)

Nearly every time there is not a "generational" talent perceived to be in the draft it's considered weak and even then when you had Davis or Zion last year it was considered weak.
Yet the talent output is always similar.

Maybe it's because we've had so much more time than normally to look at these prospects, so we actually see more good players. Maybe draft buffs feel like this every year.

[MrFortune3]

It's apparently top weak. But I agree, there's like fifteen prospects that I'd be pretty happy to have in our roster (not necessarily at #4, of course)

Nearly every time there is not a "generational" talent perceived to be in the draft it's considered weak and even then when you had Davis or Zion last year it was considered weak.
Yet the talent output is always similar.

Maybe it's because we've had so much more time than normally to look at these prospects, so we actually see more good players. Maybe draft buffs feel like this every year.

I think a majority of the issue is fans seeing teams load up on talent that talent never moving the needle. You see teams like the Celtics with loads of talent but they still need FA's to off-set it. You see the Lakers with Lonzo, Randle, Igram, Hart, Kuzma and etc but it did nothing for them until they were able to trade for AD.

People want the Warriors, Nuggets, Celtics and etc without realizing that it took time and massive amounts of draft capital to build those teams.
Fans like teams want the perfect prospect or they want a proven vet to trade for. That's not how the works in most cases. You have to draft and actually put in the work to develop those guys and your team.

[arusinov]

Yes, that is what someone would say about a prospect that was absolutely awful in Euroleague.

But really, I don't give a sh*t about the stats. His tape simply isn't that impressive. Neither is Hayes. Don't like either of them, frankly. Just a couple more Markkanen/Carter type low ceiling guys IMO.

I reserve the right to completely change my mind if Karnisovas actually drafts one of them. There must be something they saw that we can't that indicates a higher ceiling then. I feel pretty strongly that he won't, though.

As I said - some people are just decided to ignore stats of the league he played most. Why do those people even look stats of any other player in draft? None of them except Hayes (but his team was demolished in EuroCup which much weaker than Euroleague) played in better league than I-BSL...

And tape.. Everyone has their own impressions from tapes

Yeah but Hayes played well in EuroCup, shot almost 40% from 3 and 90% FT. Seems like he played up to competition, avg'ing 13pts and 9 assists against Euroleague teams Berlin and Munich in BBL. Small sample sizes all around, but what he put on tape looks good to me (ie I see high floor / high ceiling as an NBA playmaker)... and talking about age, KH is one of the youngest in draft, 7 months younger than Deni. Really young dude with massive improvements in the last year...

As for Deni, I agree that he is the most overhyped prospect this year. I simply don't see the athleticism (he's a two-foot jumper and stiff), or shooting (his FT % should be setting off universal alarm bells), or IQ (I see a lot of straight-line drives to the basket and jumping in the air looking for bailout pass (though I give him some credit for making this work decently... just wouldn't call it IQ / game slowed down for him)).

I can't fathom how he's leading the OP poll right now. To me, Hayes is simply way better at the game of basketball. Hoping he's there at 4.

Hayes played for literally worst team in EuroCup which finished 1 w /9 l. His best game with 5/ 7 3p was against other bottom 5 EuroCup team (Maccabi Rishon LeZion) when both were already eliminated from competition. 17 years old Noam Dovrat (probably 2022 2nd rounder) started for Rishon LeZion and played 26 min. Ulm in EuroCup was just extended garbage time.

And in German BBL where Ulm actually competed for playoff spot - Hayes shot 23% 3p

And Deni much more athletic and strong than people realize. He is 6'9.1" 227 lbs which runs coast to coast from steal to dunk under 4 sec and almost touches rim with his head on some dunks

[Leslie Forman]

A bunch of guys

When you have to call guys like Jamaal Magloire or Andrew Wiggins an "All Star" (which Wiggins…never even was) to put them in a similar value category to a LeBron or KD…yeeaahhh ok…

I mean, some of the guys who you put as "also produced" as if they're almost All-Star caliber are just flat out terrible players…

[MrFortune3]

A bunch of guys

When you have to call guys like Jamaal Magloire or Andrew Wiggins an "All Star" (which Wiggins…never even was) to put them in a similar value category to a LeBron or KD…yeeaahhh ok…

I mean, some of the guys who you put as "also produced" as if they're almost All-Star caliber are just flat out terrible players…

I didn't put them in a similar category, an all star player is an all star player. Only about 3-4 of them come out of each draft.
Regardless of how strong or weak the draft supposedly is. Most fans view a player as a star only when they achieve all star status and perform at a high level consistently.

I messed up Wiggins being ROY with all star. I put the also produced to point out who else come out of those drafts other than the all star players(some of which had better careers overall than the all star ones)

Each draft produces at roughly the same rate whether it's viewed as strong or weak. So constantly bemoaning a draft as weak either means you don't do much research or you just repeat what talking heads say.
It's not a true or factual claim to make.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

A bunch of guys

When you have to call guys like Jamaal Magloire or Andrew Wiggins an "All Star" (which Wiggins…never even was) to put them in a similar value category to a LeBron or KD…yeeaahhh ok…

I mean, some of the guys who you put as "also produced" as if they're almost All-Star caliber are just flat out terrible players…

I didn't put them in a similar category, an all star player is an all star player. Only about 3-4 of them come out of each draft.
Regardless of how strong or weak the draft supposedly is. Most fans view a player as a star only when they achieve all star status and perform at a high level consistently.

I messed up Wiggins being ROY with all star. I put the also produced to point out who else come out of those drafts other than the all star players(some of which had better careers overall than the all star ones)

Each draft produces at roughly the same rate whether it's viewed as strong or weak. So constantly bemoaning a draft as weak either means you don't do much research or you just repeat what talking heads say.
It's not a true or factual claim to make.

Thats only true if you treat all all-star players as equivalent. There are a set number of all star spots every year that will be filled regardless of the talent level or depth of talent in the league.

[sco]

I am rooting for AK to trade down (or out) and nab a 2nd pick between 15 and 22. I just think the lack of a tourney increases the chances of good players to be overlooked.

[Andi Obst]

I am rooting for AK to trade down (or out) and nab a 2nd pick between 15 and 22. I just think the lack of a tourney increases the chances of good players to be overlooked.

I think that's mostly a myth. The NCAA season wasn't that much shorter than usual, the extremely small sample size in the tournament shouldn't change much.

[sco]

I am rooting for AK to trade down (or out) and nab a 2nd pick between 15 and 22. I just think the lack of a tourney increases the chances of good players to be overlooked.

I think that's mostly a myth. The NCAA season wasn't that much shorter than usual, the extremely small sample size in the tournament shouldn't change much.

Agree to disagree. The tourney is a crucible where the best players either rise to the challenge or fall, impacting their draft status materially.

[ArmTriangle]

I am rooting for AK to trade down (or out) and nab a 2nd pick between 15 and 22. I just think the lack of a tourney increases the chances of good players to be overlooked.

I think that's mostly a myth. The NCAA season wasn't that much shorter than usual, the extremely small sample size in the tournament shouldn't change much.

I think the tournament doesn't change much for teams with truly professional talent evaluators like we may now have. I think lower end organizations are more susceptible to media hype affecting their evaluations.

[Andi Obst]

The tourney is a crucible where the best players either rise to the challenge or fall, impacting their draft status materially.

That would just indicate horrible scouting. You can't overvalue a tiny sample size like that and expect to get good results out of it. Completely disagree with your take here.

[Andi Obst]

I think lower end organizations are more susceptible to media hype affecting their evaluations.

Exactly, which is why they usually stay at the bottom the league.

[Leslie Forman]

I didn't put them in a similar category, an all star player is an all star player. Only about 3-4 of them come out of each draft.

Saying that the value of Kenyon Martin, Jamaal Magloire, and Michael Redd is somehow about the same as freaking LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and Carmelo Anthony is completely laughable. Come on now.

[Portiseyes]

As I said - some people are just decided to ignore stats of the league he played most. Why do those people even look stats of any other player in draft? None of them except Hayes (but his team was demolished in EuroCup which much weaker than Euroleague) played in better league than I-BSL...

And tape.. Everyone has their own impressions from tapes

Yeah but Hayes played well in EuroCup, shot almost 40% from 3 and 90% FT. Seems like he played up to competition, avg'ing 13pts and 9 assists against Euroleague teams Berlin and Munich in BBL. Small sample sizes all around, but what he put on tape looks good to me (ie I see high floor / high ceiling as an NBA playmaker)... and talking about age, KH is one of the youngest in draft, 7 months younger than Deni. Really young dude with massive improvements in the last year...

As for Deni, I agree that he is the most overhyped prospect this year. I simply don't see the athleticism (he's a two-foot jumper and stiff), or shooting (his FT % should be setting off universal alarm bells), or IQ (I see a lot of straight-line drives to the basket and jumping in the air looking for bailout pass (though I give him some credit for making this work decently... just wouldn't call it IQ / game slowed down for him)).

I can't fathom how he's leading the OP poll right now. To me, Hayes is simply way better at the game of basketball. Hoping he's there at 4.

Hayes played for literally worst team in EuroCup which finished 1 w /9 l. His best game with 5/ 7 3p was against other bottom 5 EuroCup team (Maccabi Rishon LeZion) when both were already eliminated from competition. 17 years old Noam Dovrat (probably 2022 2nd rounder) started for Rishon LeZion and played 26 min. Ulm in EuroCup was just extended garbage time.

And in German BBL where Ulm actually competed for playoff spot - Hayes shot 23% 3p

And Deni much more athletic and strong than people realize. He is 6'9.1" 227 lbs which runs coast to coast from steal to dunk under 4 sec and almost touches rim with his head on some dunks

Ok, maybe I overstated a bit, Deni’s pretty fast in open court and has gotten up when he has a runway. Just personally think there has to be a lot of positive extrapolation to see the tools for a good NBA wing. But geez next you’re going to tell me he has x-Ray vision and 3 boobs.

Also I mentioned BBL games against euroleague teams. Could use a similar argument that Deni only got smaller minutes off the bench, with fairly low production, in euroleague games. Only in the National schedule did Deni get positioned by team as the next great Israeli hope.

[MrSparkle]

Anybody else feel like Artunas acquiring a 15-20 pick and nabbing Poku is a no-brainer type of move? Super raw prospect from Eastern Europe who has a sky-high ceiling. The coaching/developmental staff is in place. You draft this guy and develop him for 3 years while Lauri and Wendell try to get on track.

Then again, SAS, DAL, and BOS are gonna be on top of it if he's worth the development and time.

[sco]

Anybody else feel like Artunas acquiring a 15-20 pick and nabbing Poku is a no-brainer type of move? Super raw prospect from Eastern Europe who has a sky-high ceiling. The coaching/developmental staff is in place. You draft this guy and develop him for 3 years while Lauri and Wendell try to get on track.

Then again, SAS, DAL, and BOS are gonna be on top of it if he's worth the development and time.

Poku sounds like a very AK move. While he's at it, go nab Kira Lewis, RJ Hampton and Daniel Oturu.

[MrFortune3]

When you have to call guys like Jamaal Magloire or Andrew Wiggins an "All Star" (which Wiggins…never even was) to put them in a similar value category to a LeBron or KD…yeeaahhh ok…

I mean, some of the guys who you put as "also produced" as if they're almost All-Star caliber are just flat out terrible players…

I didn't put them in a similar category, an all star player is an all star player. Only about 3-4 of them come out of each draft.
Regardless of how strong or weak the draft supposedly is. Most fans view a player as a star only when they achieve all star status and perform at a high level consistently.

I messed up Wiggins being ROY with all star. I put the also produced to point out who else come out of those drafts other than the all star players(some of which had better careers overall than the all star ones)

Each draft produces at roughly the same rate whether it's viewed as strong or weak. So constantly bemoaning a draft as weak either means you don't do much research or you just repeat what talking heads say.
It's not a true or factual claim to make.

Thats only true if you treat all all-star players as equivalent. There are a set number of all star spots every year that will be filled regardless of the talent level or depth of talent in the league.

Most fans define star players by being an all star, making all NBA teams and etc. all star is a baseline to measure how a player is viewed around the league.
There are certainly years in the draft where there are massive differences like 2004 but those a far less common than the traditional years which as a whole produce similar results.

[PlayerUp]

Anybody else feel like Artunas acquiring a 15-20 pick and nabbing Poku is a no-brainer type of move? Super raw prospect from Eastern Europe who has a sky-high ceiling. The coaching/developmental staff is in place. You draft this guy and develop him for 3 years while Lauri and Wendell try to get on track.

Then again, SAS, DAL, and BOS are gonna be on top of it if he's worth the development and time.

Sounds good to me.