2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

[SideshowBob]

lebron has been protecting the rim more than davis. this is pathetic from ad

I thought so last series as well vs Houston.

[GSP]

Denver would've prolly beat Utah in 6 if they had Harris. That was a big factor in them going down 3-1. They were 2-0 with Gary and he completely shut down Mitchell

Clips series was different but Vogel is much better at adjusting rotations and lineups than Doc Rivers is and Doc is the Goat of blowing 3-1 leads. Plus there's no Playoff P on the Lakers

I think La closes it out. Denver just looked deflated post game specially Murray

[freethedevil]

Denver would've prolly beat Utah in 6 if they had Harris. That was a big factor in them going down 3-1. They were 2-0 with Gary and he completely shut down Mitchell

Clips series was different but Vogel is much better at adjusting rotations and lineups than Doc Rivers is and Doc is the Goat of blowing 3-1 leads. Plus there's no Playoff P on the Lakers

I think La closes it out. Denver just looked deflated post game specially Murray

That az buzzer beater might be the decisive moment of the series.

[70sFan]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

[yoyoboy]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

AD was great scoring the ball. His defense was pretty lackluster though, he didn't rebound much, and he struggled to create for anyone else out of doubles.

[70sFan]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

AD was great scoring the ball. His defense was pretty lackluster though, he didn't rebound much, and he struggled to create for anyone else out of doubles.

So he's not upgraded Tim Duncan anymore?

But more seriously, isn't it what we all know about him? I mean, usually he's great defensively but not on all-time level and he's not physically agressive player (some people like to call him "soft"). He's also not great creator for others. This is nothing new, yet people marveled about his run here.

I think I have to watch this game today.

[freethedevil]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

AD was great scoring the ball. His defense was pretty lackluster though, he didn't rebound much, and he struggled to create for anyone else out of doubles.

So he's not upgraded Tim Duncan anymore?

But more seriously, isn't it what we all know about him? I mean, usually he's great defensively but not on all-time level and he's not physically agressive player (some people like to call him "soft"). He's also not great creator for others. This is nothing new, yet people marveled about his run here.

I think I have to watch this game today.

not sure what you think knew about him, but davis's defense was certainly atg level during the rs. Then he started shooting better than regular season kd while absolutely dominating inside. His passing's also been very solid, which is more than enough for a comparison with peak duncan.

Going on a rant aout aggressiveness is wierd since davis has certainly played better offensively these playoffs and scored vastly better than duncan's ever managed in his life.

His rim protection fading is unfortunate, but if he could really do all he's been doing offensively, while maintaining his defensive play, that would make an inarguably better player than ducan ever was. Davis's rim protection declining makes comparing the two player's best palyoff screeches arguable, it hardly renders the discussion invalid since davis has played much better offensively than duncan's ever managed, has still had close to best in the league defensive impact overall, and off course is doing this on a team that so far, is playing much better basketball than the 03 spurs.

maybe this changes, but even then, hindsight doesn't justify incredulity

[Blackmill]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

AD was great scoring the ball. His defense was pretty lackluster though, he didn't rebound much, and he struggled to create for anyone else out of doubles.

This isn't how I saw the game defensively. AD spent a huge amount of time on the perimeter. His defensive play this series needs to be evaluated as if he were a wing. He mostly played Millsap and Murray with some minutes on Jocik and Harris. LeBron was making a lot of the weakside rotations and I think this was by design since he was guarding weaker shooters like Craig. There's one play early in the 1st where both AD and LeBron are in the weakside dunkers spot side-by-side and LeBron makes the help rotation on the drive. Throughout the game it looked to me like Vogel wanted AD to prioritize the weakside corner and wing and was happy to let LeBron be the rim protector against guards which LeBron does really well. Also, all this playing on the perimeter is why AD did not get many rebounds. I understand the complaints about his passing, he missed a cutter and two Dwight lobs, and the Lakers get an extra basket or two this game if AD was a good passer from the post. But I wouldn't call his defense this game lackluster. Far from it, his perimeter defense and close outs were super impressive, and making hard rotations from the baseline to the wing over and over must be really tiring.

[limbo]

Who's been the best offensive player for the Nuggets in these Playoffs?

I think most people will say Jokic because what he brings to the table at his position is pretty much unprecedented, but watching the games, Murray seems to be the primary initiator on offense on most possessions. His passing has really improved and his ability to handle the ball and continuously put pressure on the defense with his ability to drive or pull-up from anywhere on the court and hit tough shots is really carving up the opposing defense.

[70sFan]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

AD was great scoring the ball. His defense was pretty lackluster though, he didn't rebound much, and he struggled to create for anyone else out of doubles.

This isn't how I saw the game defensively. AD spent a huge amount of time on the perimeter. His defensive play this series needs to be evaluated as if he were a wing. He mostly played Millsap and Murray with some minutes on Jocik and Harris. LeBron was making a lot of the weakside rotations and I think this was by design since he was guarding weaker shooters like Craig. There's one play early in the 1st where both AD and LeBron are in the weakside dunkers spot side-by-side and LeBron makes the help rotation on the drive. Throughout the game it looked to me like Vogel wanted AD to prioritize the weakside corner and wing and was happy to let LeBron be the rim protector against guards which LeBron does really well. Also, all this playing on the perimeter is why AD did not get many rebounds. I understand the complaints about his passing, he missed a cutter and two Dwight lobs, and the Lakers get an extra basket or two this game if AD was a good passer from the post. But I wouldn't call his defense this game lackluster. Far from it, his perimeter defense and close outs were super impressive, and making hard rotations from the baseline to the wing over and over must be really tiring.

I just watched the game and I agree with you - Davis played very well on defense. He was used a lot on perimeter and did a very good job staying in front of guards. He had also a few deflections and defended P&Rs well.

James was also very good defensively and he looked like Lakers anchor on that end last night. That's my concern with Davis - I think he's not the best at communicating defensively. He's the best when he's used as a weapon, but not the defensive mind. That's why I think both helps each other a lot on that side of the ball.

[70sFan]

not sure what you think knew about him, but davis's defense was certainly atg level during the rs. Then he started shooting better than regular season kd while absolutely dominating inside.

Depends on what you call "atg level", but to me he's not the anchor of Duncan, Garnett, Mutombo, Olajuwon and a few others caliber. I also don't see huge difference between his RS defense and what he shows in playoffs - his effort is consistent and he's engaged in variety of roles. As I said in previous post - he's not all-time great communicator on defense and it's not something he forgot in playoffs.

His passing's also been very solid, which is more than enough for a comparison with peak duncan.

Maybe, although I don't like how he handles double teams. Duncan was far better at that.

Going on a rant aout aggressiveness is wierd since davis has certainly played better offensively these playoffs and scored vastly better than duncan's ever managed in his life.

I was talking about his physical aggresivenss, not scoring agressiveness. He's been shooting tons of midrange shots and hit them at elite level, which makes him great scorer but it's not a proof of his physical agressiveness. He's still the same player, except that he shoots really well - he doesn't like physical contact, he rarely fights under the board and he can be pushed around. My comment was about him not rebounding and not fighting inside, not about scoring.

His rim protection fading is unfortunate, but if he could really do all he's been doing offensively, while maintaining his defensive play, that would make an inarguably better player than ducan ever was.

He has never been on Duncan's level defensively and he's limited as a creator. Playing next to James helps him a lot on both ends of the floor. Davis plays on much better team with much better 2nd option against worse competition than Duncan (he hasn't played against any good defensive team so far). I need much more from him to even think about him being better than prime Duncan, who was a one man army in 2001-04.

Davis's rim protection declining makes comparing the two player's best palyoff screeches arguable,

His rim protection declines only because he's asked to play a lot on perimeter, it's not like he abandoned rim protection. He was never on Duncan's level at protecting the paint anyway.

it hardly renders the discussion invalid since davis has played much better offensively than duncan's ever managed

Because he scores more, while playing next to James against mediocre defensive teams? The best defense Davis faced so far is Nuggets team, which is average. Do you want to see Duncan against comparable teams? Look at his numbers against Sonics in 2002, against Mavs and Lakers in 2003 or Grizzlies in 2004 - this is the kind of comeptition Davis faced so far.

, has still had close to best in the league defensive impact overall,

...which is not close to Duncan's impact.

and off course is doing this on a team that so far, is playing much better basketball than the 03 spurs.

I guess having much better supporting cast helps

maybe this changes, but even then, hindsight doesn't justify incredulity

We've seen this multiple times. Every time a new player has significant postseason run, people start at calling him better than top 10 players ever. Last year Kawhi was on Jordan's level, not so long ago Curry was called offensive GOAT. Davis has been amazing so far, but it doesn't mean that he's better than top 5 player ever in Duncan.

[E-Balla]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

AD was great scoring the ball. His defense was pretty lackluster though, he didn't rebound much, and he struggled to create for anyone else out of doubles.

This isn't how I saw the game defensively. AD spent a huge amount of time on the perimeter. His defensive play this series needs to be evaluated as if he were a wing. He mostly played Millsap and Murray with some minutes on Jocik and Harris. LeBron was making a lot of the weakside rotations and I think this was by design since he was guarding weaker shooters like Craig. There's one play early in the 1st where both AD and LeBron are in the weakside dunkers spot side-by-side and LeBron makes the help rotation on the drive. Throughout the game it looked to me like Vogel wanted AD to prioritize the weakside corner and wing and was happy to let LeBron be the rim protector against guards which LeBron does really well. Also, all this playing on the perimeter is why AD did not get many rebounds. I understand the complaints about his passing, he missed a cutter and two Dwight lobs, and the Lakers get an extra basket or two this game if AD was a good passer from the post. But I wouldn't call his defense this game lackluster. Far from it, his perimeter defense and close outs were super impressive, and making hard rotations from the baseline to the wing over and over must be really tiring.

I was saying the same against Houston. Like of course LeBron is defending the rim, AD is checking Westbrook, Harden, and Murray. When LeBron checked Murray at the end of the game he wasn't helping much either, you don't help off All Stars.

[freethedevil]

not sure what you think knew about him, but davis's defense was certainly atg level during the rs. Then he started shooting better than regular season kd while absolutely dominating inside.

Depends on what you call "atg level", but to me he's not the anchor of Duncan, Garnett, Mutombo, Olajuwon and a few others caliber. I also don't see huge difference between his RS defense and what he shows in playoffs - his effort is consistent and he's engaged in variety of roles. As I said in previous post - he's not all-time great communicator on defense and it's not something he forgot in playoffs.


You don't need to be all tiem great communicator for all time great defense. The bottom line is his presence on the court correlates with defensive improvements is in range of everyone you listed save hakeem who has a slighly elevated pedestal over everyone not named russell. And yes, that would factor in on court communication. He's elite on the perimiter, and he's elite at the rim. Frankly, his rim protection waning is probably more attributable to jokic being the opposing center and hence davis being pulled out. He's **** up a couple possessions tho.

His passing's also been very solid, which is more than enough for a comparison with peak duncan.

Maybe, although I don't like how he handles double teams. Duncan was far better at that. sure, but davis passes better in transition and he warrants more defensive attention. I see their creation as on par.

Going on a rant aout aggressiveness is wierd since davis has certainly played better offensively these playoffs and scored vastly better than duncan's ever managed in his life.

I was talking about his physical aggresivenss, not scoring agressiveness. He's been shooting tons of midrange shots and hit them at elite level, which makes him great scorer but it's not a proof of his physical agressiveness. He's still the same player, except that he shoots really well - he doesn't like physical contact, he rarely fights under the board and he can be pushed around. My comment was about him not rebounding and not fighting inside, not about scoring.

He's averaging 9 rebounds a game, 2 offensive. Playing with dwight doesn't suddenly mean he's gotten worse at rebounding. This wierd focus on rebounds is pointless and stupid. Obviously, he's going to get less rebounds with dwight howard pulling a dennis rodman impression

His rim protection fading is unfortunate, but if he could really do all he's been doing offensively, while maintaining his defensive play, that would make an inarguably better player than ducan ever was.

He has never been on Duncan's level defensively and he's limited as a creator. Playing next to James helps him a lot on both ends of the floor. Davis plays on much better team with much better 2nd option against worse competition than Duncan (he hasn't played against any good defensive team so far). I need much more from him to even think about him being better than prime Duncan, who was a one man army in 2001-04. [b]He plays on a much better team and so far has acheived much better results. We've seen ducan ball out against the best playoff defense of the era, and the rockets were the best playoff defense this season before davis decided to light them up. No one here is comparing davis's best three yeear stretch, so red herring is red. Davis was +3 on defense this season, has been impactful when playing in a big heavy lineup on the perimiter or on a small lineup at the rim, and is now playing better offensively than durant. He's playing like his 18-19 self creatively when he had a passer rating of 6.5 and his combination of gravity and spacing is incredible. Not to mention he's doing all this on a team that is most definitely not built around his strengths with a player whose ball dominance has repeatedly freezed out his teamamtes this series.

Competition? The rockets were the best postseason defense[/b]

Davis's rim protection declining makes comparing the two player's best palyoff screeches arguable,

His rim protection declines only because he's asked to play a lot on perimeter, it's not like he abandoned rim protection. He was never on Duncan's level at protecting the paint anyway.

[b]KG was also not on duncan's level at protecting the paint. But like KG, he makes up for it with being able to pick up perimiter players. Given that davis has successfully been shutting down the opposing team's [b]guards, his versatility compared to garnett's isn't a ridiculous question.[/b][/b]

it hardly renders the discussion invalid since davis has played much better offensively than duncan's ever managed

Because he scores more, while playing next to James against mediocre defensive teams? The best defense Davis faced so far is Nuggets team, which is average. Do you want to see Duncan against comparable teams? Look at his numbers against Sonics in 2002, against Mavs and Lakers in 2003 or Grizzlies in 2004 - this is the kind of comeptition Davis faced so far.

[b]If you ignore that every team he faced was injured in 03, then yes, this seems convincing. Otherwise i'm not sure what you're going on aout defense for. The rockets were the best postseason defense in the league before duncan smashed them. Nuggets were very good defensively once their best defender ecovered from injury turning a great clippers offense to ****. Also, given davis gets half his impact from defense, it seems logical to look at the offenses he's played:

-> portland, 3rd in the league
-> rockets, top 5
-> nuggets, best offense of the playoffs


We've also seen davis ball out against the warriors, twice. Duncan's 03 run was not a slaying of titans if you go by anything other than name recognition.
[/b]

, has still had close to best in the league defensive impact overall,

...which is not close to Duncan's impact.'


[b]You're welcome to think that. But the scoreboard disagrees. Giannis, Draymond, Gobert and AD "not being close to duncan defensively" is not something that there's really any compelling evidence to support. [/b]

and off course is doing this on a team that so far, is playing much better basketball than the 03 spurs.

I guess having much better supporting cast helps

Much better results justify the much better cast. It also speaks to davis's portability, an advantage he clearly has over 03 duncan. Davis "not being aggressive" translates to a jumpshooting game that is easier to score aroudn than duncan's iso and post ups. Davis has basically ceded posting up to lebron and its done nothing to stop his offense. Imagine davis on a team which maximizes his talents. Davis is the very rare breed of superstar than pairing with lebron doesn't lead up to diminishing returns. **** spacing or otherwise.

maybe this changes, but even then, hindsight doesn't justify incredulity

We've seen this multiple times. Every time a new player has significant postseason run, people start at calling him better than top 10 players ever. Last year Kawhi was on Jordan's level, not so long ago Curry was called offensive GOAT. Davis has been amazing so far, but it doesn't mean that he's better than top 5 player ever in Duncan.


Duncan being top 5 is only arguably peak wise on the specific basis of a small sample size of three playoff runs. Davis's current run is easily debatable with duncan's best. None of the other examples are relevant. If curry had carried his offense into the playoffs, his peak would rightly be considered goaty. If Kawhi actually played like mj in the playoffs that would have been justified. There's nothing wrong with shifting your opinions quicly when new evidence presents itself. We're talkign about davis now, not dais next season or last.

[70sFan]

sure, but davis passes better in transition and he warrants more defensive attention. I see their creation as on par.

I don't see any reason to believe that Davis is better passer in transition (young Duncan led the break fairly often) and the part about defensive attention is just false. Duncan was legitimately doubled and tripled all game long, which is understandable because he didn't play with someone like James. Davis has been defended straight for most of the time, where did you get that impression?

He's averaging 9 rebounds a game, 2 offensive. Playing with dwight doesn't suddenly mean he's gotten worse at rebounding. This wierd focus on rebounds is pointless and stupid. Obviously, he's going to get less rebounds with dwight howard pulling a dennis rodman impression

He's at 16% rebounding rate for his career (worse this season), this is not bad but certainly not comparable to what Duncan was been doing in his prime.

[b]He plays on a much better team and so far has acheived much better results. We've seen ducan ball out against the best playoff defense of the era, and the rockets were the best playoff defense this season before davis decided to light them up.

So you are basing your opinion about Houston defense on one series against mediocre Thunder team? You know that this is not how it works right?

Houston wasn't a great defensive team (far from it) and they matched up terribly against Davis.

Davis was +3 on defense this season,

What does this even mean?

has been impactful when playing in a big heavy lineup on the perimiter or on a small lineup at the rim,

I never denied that.

and is now playing better offensively than durant.

Durant also had his share of high scoring series against mediocre defenses.

He's playing like his 18-19 self creatively when he had a passer rating of 6.5 and his combination of gravity and spacing is incredible. Not to mention he's doing all this on a team that is most definitely not built around his strengths with a player whose ball dominance has repeatedly freezed out his teamamtes this series.

Yeah and Duncan's team relied on him doing something on offense all the time was definitely optimal for him. Come on, Davis has much better team, plays in worse defensive emvironment and doesn't have to do nearly as much as Duncan had to.

Competition? The rockets were the best postseason defense[/b]

Against mediocre Thunder team, which means nothing.

[b]You're welcome to think that. But the scoreboard disagrees. Giannis, Draymond, Gobert and AD "not being close to duncan defensively" is not something that there's really any compelling evidence to support. [/b]

I never said a word about Gobert, Giannis or Draymond in this thread. We're talking about Davis here, who is not on level of Gobert or prime Green.

Much better results justify the much better cast. It also speaks to davis's portability, an advantage he clearly has over 03 duncan. Davis "not being aggressive" translates to a jumpshooting game that is easier to score aroudn than duncan's iso and post ups. Davis has basically ceded posting up to lebron and its done nothing to stop his offense. Imagine davis on a team which maximizes his talents. Davis is the very rare breed of superstar than pairing with lebron doesn't lead up to diminishing returns. **** spacing or otherwise.

Duncan is one of the most portable players ever and he proved that throughout his career, so I don't get what you are talking about.

[70sFan]

Am I the only one who don't want to believe in the sample of 7 games against literally one opponent, who was mediocre offensively all season long? Am I unfair because I don't want to call Rockets the best defensive team in playoffs?

[Doctor MJ]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

Re: Jokic. 3 main thoughts:

1. He seemed stymied by Laker size clogging the interior.
2. For whatever reason, he didn't seem confident taking more 3's.

3. I think the refs really messed up Jokic in the 4th quarter. I think the Lakers were the better team last night so I think it unlikely to make a difference, but within a minute of coming back into the game the refs had given him his 4th and 5th fouls - he went back to the bench, and when he finally returned he was too cautious - for understandable reasons. I was particularly frustrated because it seemed really damn clear that on his 5th foul he wasn't the Nugget who committed the foul. It's one thing for your team to get screwed over on a judgment call, but when the refs just give the foul to the wrong guy when it seemed fairly obvious even before the replay and that results in a team's star being removed from the game, that's annoying.

[freethedevil]

sure, but davis passes better in transition and he warrants more defensive attention. I see their creation as on par.

I don't see any reason to believe that Davis is better passer in transition (young Duncan led the break fairly often) and the part about defensive attention is just false. Duncan was legitimately doubled and tripled all game long, which is understandable because he didn't play with someone like James. Davis has been defended straight for most of the time, where did you get that impression? When james goes off davis is able to read transition opportunities very early. Davis has better range and reacts to openings earlier. not sure how the rest is controversial. Davis is better than duncan at the rim and has a much better perimiter game. He offers more gravity and spacing than duncan does.

He's averaging 9 rebounds a game, 2 offensive. Playing with dwight doesn't suddenly mean he's gotten worse at rebounding. This wierd focus on rebounds is pointless and stupid. Obviously, he's going to get less rebounds with dwight howard pulling a dennis rodman impression

He's at 16% rebounding rate for his career (worse this season), this is not bad but certainly not comparable to what Duncan was been doing in his prime. Peak giannis, duncan, kg are around +3.5. That's not a big gap.

[b]He plays on a much better team and so far has acheived much better results. We've seen ducan ball out against the best playoff defense of the era, and the rockets were the best playoff defense this season before davis decided to light them up.

So you are basing your opinion about Houston defense on one series against mediocre Thunder team? You know that this is not how it works right?

Houston wasn't a great defensive team (far from it) and they matched up terribly against Davis.
[b]goood thing we've seen davis go ham against the warriors

Davis was +3 on defense this season,

What does this even mean? it means the lakers are 3 points better with davis on the court defensively. That transaltes to about 15 wins.

has been impactful when playing in a big heavy lineup on the perimiter or on a small lineup at the rim,

I never denied that.

and is now playing better offensively than durant.

Durant also had his share of high scoring series against mediocre defenses.

He's playing like his 18-19 self creatively when he had a passer rating of 6.5 and his combination of gravity and spacing is incredible. Not to mention he's doing all this on a team that is most definitely not built around his strengths with a player whose ball dominance has repeatedly freezed out his teamamtes this series.

Yeah and Duncan's team relied on him doing something on offense all the time was definitely optimal for him. Come on, Davis has much better team, plays in worse defensive emvironment and doesn't have to do nearly as much as Duncan had to.
your point? the 03 spurs were an average offense, the 2020 lakers are an all time offense. The 03 spurs won their title on defense, and duncan's cast was way better defensively than the lakers. Duncan had a worse team and did worse. Not sure what you're trying to argue here. We've already seen AD have KG-level impact on teams vastly worse than anything duncan's played with.

Competition? The rockets were the best postseason defense[/b][/b]

Against mediocre Thunder team, which means nothing.

[b]You're welcome to think that. But the scoreboard disagrees. Giannis, Draymond, Gobert and AD "not being close to duncan defensively" is not something that there's really any compelling evidence to support. [/b]

I never said a word about Gobert, Giannis or Draymond in this thread. We're talking about Davis here, who is not on level of Gobert or prime Green. b] In terms of making his team's defens ebetter, he's only a halfstep below.[/b]

Much better results justify the much better cast. It also speaks to davis's portability, an advantage he clearly has over 03 duncan. Davis "not being aggressive" translates to a jumpshooting game that is easier to score aroudn than duncan's iso and post ups. Davis has basically ceded posting up to lebron and its done nothing to stop his offense. Imagine davis on a team which maximizes his talents. Davis is the very rare breed of superstar than pairing with lebron doesn't lead up to diminishing returns. **** spacing or otherwise.

Duncan is one of the most portable players ever and he proved that throughout his career, so I don't get what you are talking about. you don't get what I'm talkign about? Davis is better on the perimiter which means he loses lest valuae when paired with bigs. He has avastly better off ball game meaning his offense loses value. You know exactly what I mean. Duncan would not fit nearly as well with a Lebron as Davis does. Davis inarguably fits better around teamamtes than 03 duncan. Don't try and retroactively put what later versions of 03 ducnan did onto duncan at his peal

[70sFan]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

Re: Jokic. 3 main thoughts:

1. He seemed stymied by Laker size clogging the interior.
2. For whatever reason, he didn't seem confident taking more 3's.

3. I think the refs really messed up Jokic in the 4th quarter. I think the Lakers were the better team last night so I think it unlikely to make a difference, but within a minute of coming back into the game the refs had given him his 4th and 5th fouls - he went back to the bench, and when he finally returned he was too cautious - for understandable reasons. I was particularly frustrated because it seemed really damn clear that on his 5th foul he wasn't the Nugget who committed the foul. It's one thing for your team to get screwed over on a judgment call, but when the refs just give the foul to the wrong guy when it seemed fairly obvious even before the replay and that results in a team's star being removed from the game, that's annoying.

Yeah, when I finally watched this game it was clear that Jokic was as agressive as he usually is and fouls situation is a great point. In last minutes he just wasn't himself.

I also think that Lakers lineups with Dwight give him quite a problem. Not necessarily because of Dwight himself (Jokic scores on him well anyway) but because it's harder for him to hunt for missmatches. With Dwight and Davis, Jokic has only two opponents who can't defend him at reasonable level and Murray has only one (Dwight), because Davis is extremely good on perimeter.

[Jaivl]

your point? the 03 spurs were an average offense, the 2020 lakers are an all time offense. The 03 spurs won their title on defense, and duncan's cast was way better defensively than the lakers. Duncan had a worse team and did worse. Not sure what you're trying to argue here. We've already seen AD have KG-level impact on teams vastly worse than anything duncan's played with.

Woah there, I'm pretty sure none of this is actually true, other than "the 03 spurs won their title on defense".

[Heej]

I couldn't watch the game - what happened to the Joker? Also, why people say that Davis played unimpressive game? Is it because of his defense?

Re: Jokic. 3 main thoughts:

1. He seemed stymied by Laker size clogging the interior.
2. For whatever reason, he didn't seem confident taking more 3's.

3. I think the refs really messed up Jokic in the 4th quarter. I think the Lakers were the better team last night so I think it unlikely to make a difference, but within a minute of coming back into the game the refs had given him his 4th and 5th fouls - he went back to the bench, and when he finally returned he was too cautious - for understandable reasons. I was particularly frustrated because it seemed really damn clear that on his 5th foul he wasn't the Nugget who committed the foul. It's one thing for your team to get screwed over on a judgment call, but when the refs just give the foul to the wrong guy when it seemed fairly obvious even before the replay and that results in a team's star being removed from the game, that's annoying.

I can see why you might say that since MPJ did reach in on that take, but you can catch Jokic's right forearm nudging AD in the back the entire time from when he took off to when he finished that layup in the air. That's a subtle but very clear foul in my book. Maybe some discretion should be taken and the refs should've just given MPJ the foul, but we can't just excuse Jokic on this consistently clear flaw in his game of being foul prone and committing stupid fouls.

He was about to foul out on that LeBron drive when they switched with the Lakers up 7 with like 1:40 to go and then Morris got called for holding Grant on the screen. This man just does not do himself any favors with his reach-ins and it's annoying to watch someone that good do dumb stuff like this. But if anything I'd take more exception to the 4th foul where AD exaggerated Jokic's arm contact securing the rebound, but Jokic should've just taken his hand out the cookie jar once he knew AD had it.