2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Heej]

Hopefully this will correct the AD over-reactions after game 2. LeBron still the best in the game and even when his scoring is off, he has a major, major impact on the game, something guys like Kawhi, Giannis, and Harden struggle with.

The fact that the adjustment that shut down the most unguardable pick and roll in 20 years was basically just giving Jamal Murray a wide open runway and asking LeBron to try and chasedown block him is absolutely nutty to me

I can't keep calling AD the best player in the playoffs if he's not gonna mix it up on the glass. Right now Bron is out-boarding and out-facilitating him while playing even better rim defense.

Most unguardable pick and roll in the last 20 years?

Did Nash/Amare and Steph/Kd die?

LMFAO Nash and Amare, give me a break. Modern day schemes would just put two wing defenders on both of them, switch the pnr and watch Amare get devoured by a double team with his horrible post passing and mediocre post game. Steph and KD would have taken the crown if KD actually made contact on his screens and not slipped them all the time.

[freethedevil]

Hopefully this will correct the AD over-reactions after game 2. LeBron still the best in the game and even when his scoring is off, he has a major, major impact on the game, something guys like Kawhi, Giannis, and Harden struggle with.

The fact that the adjustment that shut down the most unguardable pick and roll in 20 years was basically just giving Jamal Murray a wide open runway and asking LeBron to try and chasedown block him is absolutely nutty to me

I can't keep calling AD the best player in the playoffs if he's not gonna mix it up on the glass. Right now Bron is out-boarding and out-facilitating him while playing even better rim defense.

Most unguardable pick and roll in the last 20 years?

Did Nash/Amare and Steph/Kd die?

Lebron compensates for lesser shooting with his passing and davis is a vastly better interior scorer than kd or curry. Not to mention davis is a better passer than durant and lebron is a vastly better interior scorer. KD also dies against screens.

KD-Curry isn't anywhere near the level of Lebron-AD PNR.

[HeartBreakKid]

The fact that the adjustment that shut down the most unguardable pick and roll in 20 years was basically just giving Jamal Murray a wide open runway and asking LeBron to try and chasedown block him is absolutely nutty to me

I can't keep calling AD the best player in the playoffs if he's not gonna mix it up on the glass. Right now Bron is out-boarding and out-facilitating him while playing even better rim defense.

Most unguardable pick and roll in the last 20 years?

Did Nash/Amare and Steph/Kd die?

LMFAO Nash and Amare, give me a break. Modern day schemes would just put two wing defenders on both of them, switch the pnr and watch Amare get devoured by a double team with his horrible post passing and mediocre post game. Steph and KD would have taken the crown if KD actually made contact on his screens and not slipped them all the time.

Wow a double team. Why didn't anyone think of that!

You can't be serious, right?

[Heej]

Most unguardable pick and roll in the last 20 years?

Did Nash/Amare and Steph/Kd die?

LMFAO Nash and Amare, give me a break. Modern day schemes would just put two wing defenders on both of them, switch the pnr and watch Amare get devoured by a double team with his horrible post passing and mediocre post game. Steph and KD would have taken the crown if KD actually made contact on his screens and not slipped them all the time.

Wow a double team. Why didn't anyone think of that!

You can't be serious, right?

Lmao you act like Amares a good enough post player to punish switches in the first place. You could let him flail around 1v1 in the post with normal help and be fine tbh, but it's the fact that Jokic can't actually be doubled successfully in the post or single-covered via a non-big that makes their pick and roll unguardable.

You can't be serious not comprehending what a difference there is between defending Amare with switching schemes vs defending Jokic LMFAO

[70sFan]

LMFAO Nash and Amare, give me a break. Modern day schemes would just put two wing defenders on both of them, switch the pnr and watch Amare get devoured by a double team with his horrible post passing and mediocre post game. Steph and KD would have taken the crown if KD actually made contact on his screens and not slipped them all the time.

Wow a double team. Why didn't anyone think of that!

You can't be serious, right?

Lmao you act like Amares a good enough post player to punish switches in the first place. You could let him flail around 1v1 in the post with normal help and be fine tbh, but it's the fact that Jokic can't actually be doubled successfully in the post or single-covered via a non-big that makes their pick and roll unguardable.

You can't be serious not comprehending what a difference there is between defending Amare with switching schemes vs defending Jokic LMFAO

You can say a lot about Amare, but switiching against him is not a good idea. He's very explosive and without size you can't stop him. He'd go through small defenders that'd defend Nash.

Amare is limited when he has to create for others, but he's walking missmatch against any smaller defender. He's good driver, excellent modrange shooter, very dangerous lob threat and he drew fouls like a madman. He's basically worse passing Davis on offense, there is no way that simple switching would stop him.

[HeartBreakKid]

LMFAO Nash and Amare, give me a break. Modern day schemes would just put two wing defenders on both of them, switch the pnr and watch Amare get devoured by a double team with his horrible post passing and mediocre post game. Steph and KD would have taken the crown if KD actually made contact on his screens and not slipped them all the time.

Wow a double team. Why didn't anyone think of that!

You can't be serious, right?

Lmao you act like Amares a good enough post player to punish switches in the first place. You could let him flail around 1v1 in the post with normal help and be fine tbh, but it's the fact that Jokic can't actually be doubled successfully in the post or single-covered via a non-big that makes their pick and roll unguardable.

You can't be serious not comprehending what a difference there is between defending Amare with switching schemes vs defending Jokic LMFAO

He is? Amare is a face up high post guy, so even in isolation he would easily score on a smaller defender as he did in NYC.

With momentum forget about it...that's and and 1 every time. You don't know what you're talking about, you must be thinking of Big 3 Amare.

[Heej]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can. That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically. It's a great pick and roll duo but anyone who thinks Nash and Amare were more destructive and more scheme proof than this version of Jokic and Murray is just plain wrong lol.

The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose. That and the fact that Jokic can still score on wings when they scram switch means the switching scheme will always be toast. You can scram switch a wing onto Amare after the initial PNR switch and I guarantee he's generating sub-1ppp offense on those mid post isos. There's levels to this stuff lol. The modern game has far more answers to those PNRs than a mid-2000s league lol...but I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about

[MyUniBroDavis]

The fact that the adjustment that shut down the most unguardable pick and roll in 20 years was basically just giving Jamal Murray a wide open runway and asking LeBron to try and chasedown block him is absolutely nutty to me

I can't keep calling AD the best player in the playoffs if he's not gonna mix it up on the glass. Right now Bron is out-boarding and out-facilitating him while playing even better rim defense.

Most unguardable pick and roll in the last 20 years?

Did Nash/Amare and Steph/Kd die?

Lebron compensates for lesser shooting with his passing and davis is a vastly better interior scorer than kd or curry. Not to mention davis is a better passer than durant and lebron is a vastly better interior scorer. KD also dies against screens.

KD-Curry isn't anywhere near the level of Lebron-AD PNR.

Im like 90% sure the lebron AD pick and roll has barely been run this playoffs vs the KD and Curry pick and roll which was sealed in the rs

Pick and roll for the ball handler is about making the reads and what you can do and your threat, lebrons lack of shooting and willingness to take threes when they go undernis a big deal. As you see in tape AD has barely scored off the bron and AD pick and roll.

The switches arent the same too. With murray and curry, if you have a big man they cant leave open on the short roll they can force the switch theough execution, and obivously a fuard on a roll man vs a big wing on one is a different situation

[E-Balla]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can. That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically. It's a great pick and roll duo but anyone who thinks Nash and Amare were more destructive and more scheme proof than this version of Jokic and Murray is just plain wrong lol. The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose

It's much harder to collapse on Amar'e than it is to collapse on Jokic. Collapsing on Amar'e meant most times he was going through your defenders and still making the bucket or drawing a foul. It's actually where he made his name.

I think if LeBron was a little more aggressive passing him and AD will be the best duo ever. But Nash is so much better at passing he elevated Amar'e over AD so I'd put Amar'e/Nash at #2. Dirk/Terry is probably #1 IMO.

Watch on YouTube

[Heej]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can. That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically. It's a great pick and roll duo but anyone who thinks Nash and Amare were more destructive and more scheme proof than this version of Jokic and Murray is just plain wrong lol. The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose

It's much harder to collapse on Amar'e than it is to collapse on Jokic. Collapsing on Amar'e meant most times he was going through your defenders and still making the bucket or drawing a foul. It's actually where he made his name.

I think if LeBron was a little more aggressive passing him and AD will be the best duo ever. But Nash is so much better at passing he elevated Amar'e over AD so I'd put Amar'e/Nash at #2. Dirk/Terry is probably #1 IMO.

Watch on YouTube

I could see that first part to an extent. But at the end of the day I don't see Amare or Nash busting a switching scheme the same way these guys do. And that's what the NBA comes down to now. The Lakers would've switched everything and killed every Denver action if it weren't for Jokic. Amare is not doing that to a coaching staff.

[70sFan]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can.

A counterpoint to this is that Amare was much faster and much more explosive than Jokic. Jokic is much better against double teams, but Amare is much harder to double at first. Besides, teams wouldn't respect Amare passing which would give Nash much more space to operate.

Not to mention that Nash is simply better decision maker than Murray and it's very important.

That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically.

That's not true, Amare was excellent shooter from any area inside three point line.

The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose. That and the fact that Jokic can still score on wings when they scram switch means the switching scheme will always be toast. You can scram switch a wing onto Amare after the initial PNR switch and I guarantee he's generating sub-1ppp offense on those mid post isos. There's levels to this stuff lol.

I don't think it's reasonable that Amare would struggle against wings when he rolls to the basket. He'd also create more attention than Jokic because of two things - worse passing and bigger driving threat. Jokic is amazing, but he's not dynamic P&R scorer and he's actually weak at rolling to the basket and scoring. Defending Jokic and Amare are completely different things.

The modern game has far more answers to those PNRs than a mid-2000s league lol...but I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about

What answers? Switching? It existed in the 1960s. Drop coverage? It was quite common then. Trapping ball-handlers? Again, it's nothing new for Nash.

Unless you want to trap Nash, force him to give the ball to Amare and double him in the high post, which would give Suns 3 to 1 opportunity. You also underestimate how hard it is to trap someone like Nash, he'd take this defense apart.

[70sFan]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can. That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically. It's a great pick and roll duo but anyone who thinks Nash and Amare were more destructive and more scheme proof than this version of Jokic and Murray is just plain wrong lol. The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose

It's much harder to collapse on Amar'e than it is to collapse on Jokic. Collapsing on Amar'e meant most times he was going through your defenders and still making the bucket or drawing a foul. It's actually where he made his name.

I think if LeBron was a little more aggressive passing him and AD will be the best duo ever. But Nash is so much better at passing he elevated Amar'e over AD so I'd put Amar'e/Nash at #2. Dirk/Terry is probably #1 IMO.

Watch on YouTube

Excellent mention, people forget how good Dirk was on P&R.

Another highly underrated P&R pair (that was a bit underutilized) is 1990 Magic/Worthy. It was the season when Lakers played Worthy at 4 and Magic run a lot of P&Rs with him. With Worthy ability to create off the dribble and Magic's briliant playmaking it was scary good. I can't even imagine how unguardable they would be with modern spacing.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Hopefully this will correct the AD over-reactions after game 2. LeBron still the best in the game and even when his scoring is off, he has a major, major impact on the game, something guys like Kawhi, Giannis, and Harden struggle with.

The fact that the adjustment that shut down the most unguardable pick and roll in 20 years was basically just giving Jamal Murray a wide open runway and asking LeBron to try and chasedown block him is absolutely nutty to me

I can't keep calling AD the best player in the playoffs if he's not gonna mix it up on the glass. Right now Bron is out-boarding and out-facilitating him while playing even better rim defense.

Im hilariously unsober rn so i dont remember much of the game.

But iirc rhey only ran one late murray and jokic pick and roll, rhe rest was mostly isos

With defense ADs been guarding closeputs way more than most big men probably do, so hes been at the edge of the peirmeter on these rebound oppertunities mostly. Its not as if the nuuggets were doing well on the offensive glass either, which also implies AD wasnt giving up offensive rebounds at least not heavily, and he did fight and get a few and draw some fouls on both ends goingn for boards, his offensive rebounding was pretty important in the clutch today. He did a pretty good job reading passing lanes and making timely deflections off transition as well, they looked simple but ADs the only guy that coold have picked one or two of those passes off, and there was some anticipation needed as well. I think at the very least he was rhe best player offensively today, outside of murray ofc, and id still call his D elite. His closeouts have been pretty great, and hes been told tomplay a very difficult role on defense throughout these rounds

Hes been checking guards alot this postseason which i cant think of any other big man of the oast doing, even garnett checked wings moreso than actual guards. Its given alot of versatility to their defensive gameplan. Hes not clamping them all up but not being shmyeeted means hes providing alotof value from a tactical standpoint.

I think him v lebron is a bit of a difficult question because brons having his best defensive playoffs from start to finish in a hella long time, but offensively i think theres a gap in favor of AD. Not that brons been bas offensively, hes been pretty great, but AD is genuinly scoring the most difficult buckets of his career

I think purely scoring wise the AD run so far is right up there in an all time perspective. Hes doing his damage off the dribble often against a packed paint, and not even considering hes a big man has been forced into a pretty crazy amount of contested jumpers, hes actually shooting more than kawhi did these playoffs iirc, and hitting them at an absurd rate. His passings been fairly on point outside of an errant pass here and there, and his offensive rebounding considering he plays with dwight, bron, and mcgee, and hes been a perimeter guy mostly on offense hasnt been bad outside of game 3.

Its been hard for them to stop the denver offense mostly because if murray is THIS good you have to get creative to stop him, but iirc a few lebron and AD looks at him (ad v jokic, brin vs murray) deterred then from running it, since the switch you get in p and r for the post guy generally isnt super close to the rim and jokic posting up bron from the 20 foot area isnt thaaaat bad, and neither is davis on murray. Neither is ideal but they both are okay.

I do think ADs been pretty decisively, the best big man this series, even just offensively. He was clearly better games 1 and game 4, i personally think he was clearly better game 2 all things considered

I think even beyond just looking attheir situations this holds true too,

I think when ur scoring 32 a game in 67% TS on almost exclusively bad or contested shots against a packed paint, or shots the defenses want you to take thats pretty insane impact.

I guess a way to say it is in terms of "scoring impact", i think davis is scoring at least 5-6 more points than youd expect him to based off of his pure effeciency, which obviosuly in the grand scheme of a bball game its a huge deal

Not only that but i feel the way theyve defended davis is "make him be a playmaker" vs jokic of "let him be a scorer."

While jokic has scored well, i trhink davis went like "no" and jist scored theough that, which is probably the right call considering the lakers shooting

I have this weird dissonance of, i can def see bron>AD, but at the same time i think offensively ADs been performing the best you possibly could in his situation, and defensively while hes not as "wow" as he was in other games, i do think his impact has still been elite although in a more nuanced way

[No-more-rings]

I fell asleep at some point late in the game, but is it really a given that Lebron was better than AD? Sure Lebron’s all around game was better but his scoring remains unimpressive and it’s never easy picking against someone that put up 34 points on 80 ts%.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can. That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically. It's a great pick and roll duo but anyone who thinks Nash and Amare were more destructive and more scheme proof than this version of Jokic and Murray is just plain wrong lol. The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose

It's much harder to collapse on Amar'e than it is to collapse on Jokic. Collapsing on Amar'e meant most times he was going through your defenders and still making the bucket or drawing a foul. It's actually where he made his name.

I think if LeBron was a little more aggressive passing him and AD will be the best duo ever. But Nash is so much better at passing he elevated Amar'e over AD so I'd put Amar'e/Nash at #2. Dirk/Terry is probably #1 IMO.

Watch on YouTube

I could see that first part to an extent. But at the end of the day I don't see Amare or Nash busting a switching scheme the same way these guys do. And that's what the NBA comes down to now. The Lakers would've switched everything and killed every Denver action if it weren't for Jokic. Amare is not doing that to a coaching staff.

Id say that murray is arguably as responsible for this as jokic. Jokics role is that you cant blitz murray since hes so good on the short roll, although this is hardly unique to jokic.

So its about how good is murray at forcing these switches, and what switches are these. Usually the guy on jokic is green/caruso/kuz/kcp, and obviously all of those are cash money.

With the bron and AD pick and roll itll be millsap and grant on davis.

When the lakers go big their defense on jokic because they can do better at preventing these small switches does get alot better

Im like 99% sure that jokic's numbers with dwight in the game are non existent because of that. Ill check it and the end of the series but i think its something like 1ppints and 6 rebounds

Game 1, 7 points 0 assists in 12 minutes
Game 2, 11 points 1 assist in 13 minutes
Game 3, 5 points and 2 assists in 14 minutes
Game 4, 6 points and 3 assists in 22 minutes

Essentially, per 36 against dwight, hes averaging 17.1-3.5

Like i think big lineups that can prevent those switches from being as costly are probably the way to go here. Dwights been mostly played with AD so im calling these the good "big" lineups, since mcgees a horrible matchup for jokic.

[Heej]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can.

.

A counterpoint to this is that Amare was much faster and much more explosive than Jokic. Jokic is much better against double teams, but Amare is much harder to double at first. Besides, teams wouldn't respect Amare passing which would give Nash much more space to operate.

Not to mention that Nash is simply better decision maker than Murray and it's very important.

That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically.

That's not true, Amare was excellent shooter from any area inside three point line.

The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose. That and the fact that Jokic can still score on wings when they scram switch means the switching scheme will always be toast. You can scram switch a wing onto Amare after the initial PNR switch and I guarantee he's generating sub-1ppp offense on those mid post isos. There's levels to this stuff lol.

I don't think it's reasonable that Amare would struggle against wings when he rolls to the basket. He'd also create more attention than Jokic because of two things - worse passing and bigger driving threat. Jokic is amazing, but he's not dynamic P&R scorer and he's actually weak at rolling to the basket and scoring. Defending Jokic and Amare are completely different things.

The modern game has far more answers to those PNRs than a mid-2000s league lol...but I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about

What answers? Switching? It existed in the 1960s. Drop coverage? It was quite common then. Trapping ball-handlers? Again, it's nothing new for Nash.

Unless you want to trap Nash, force him to give the ball to Amare and double him in the high post, which would give Suns 3 to 1 opportunity. You also underestimate how hard it is to trap someone like Nash, he'd take this defense apart.

Fair point on Amare getting to the paint far more quickly and making it tougher on the help in general. I happily concede that point in regards to traditional coverages.

However, when you switch you automatically cut off the roll to the basket. From there you're depending on Amare to kill the switch 1v1 via a faceup with help lurking. So no to the idea that their PNR is harder to guard than Jokic and Murray I'm sorry. He's not scoring more than 1ppp with that look ergo the Nash-Amare pnr still has a hard counter to it. Again, this is nowhere near as hard to answer as "what do you do with Jokic".

And if you think modern schemes only consist of what you're doing at the point of attack, which is what I think you're doing by pointing out all those coverage options that have been around forever, you're watching basketball wrong my friend. There's much more rotating and passing off guys on the backside now on a possession by possession basis than there ever was back in the 60s lol. And specifically the scram switch only came around like 5 years ago

[MyUniBroDavis]

Lmao maybe if defense was played strictly 1v1, but Amare was way too poor a passer to consistently punish defenses that collapse on him the way Jokic can.

.

A counterpoint to this is that Amare was much faster and much more explosive than Jokic. Jokic is much better against double teams, but Amare is much harder to double at first. Besides, teams wouldn't respect Amare passing which would give Nash much more space to operate.

Not to mention that Nash is simply better decision maker than Murray and it's very important.

That and the fact that he's not a viable shooting threat beyond the elbows means he's much easier to contain schematically.

That's not true, Amare was excellent shooter from any area inside three point line.

The skillset and the size Jokic has is just plain anomalous and Murray is playing like a lesser version of Steph Curry crossed with D Rose. That and the fact that Jokic can still score on wings when they scram switch means the switching scheme will always be toast. You can scram switch a wing onto Amare after the initial PNR switch and I guarantee he's generating sub-1ppp offense on those mid post isos. There's levels to this stuff lol.

I don't think it's reasonable that Amare would struggle against wings when he rolls to the basket. He'd also create more attention than Jokic because of two things - worse passing and bigger driving threat. Jokic is amazing, but he's not dynamic P&R scorer and he's actually weak at rolling to the basket and scoring. Defending Jokic and Amare are completely different things.

The modern game has far more answers to those PNRs than a mid-2000s league lol...but I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about

What answers? Switching? It existed in the 1960s. Drop coverage? It was quite common then. Trapping ball-handlers? Again, it's nothing new for Nash.

Unless you want to trap Nash, force him to give the ball to Amare and double him in the high post, which would give Suns 3 to 1 opportunity. You also underestimate how hard it is to trap someone like Nash, he'd take this defense apart.

Fair point on Amare getting to the paint far more quickly and making it tougher on the help in general. I happily concede that point in regards to traditional coverages.

However, when you switch you automatically cut off the roll to the basket. From there you're depending on Amare to kill the switch 1v1 via a faceup with help lurking. So no to the idea that their PNR is harder to guard than Jokic and Murray I'm sorry. He's not scoring more than 1ppp with that look ergo the Nash-Amare pnr still has a hard counter to it. Again, this is nowhere near as hard to answer as "what do you do with Jokic".

And if you think modern schemes only consist of what you're doing at the point of attack, which is what I think you're doing by pointing out all those coverage options that have been around forever, you're watching basketball wrong my friend. There's much more rotating and passing off guys on the backside now on a possession by possession basis than there ever was back in the 60s lol. And specifically the scram switch only came around like 5 years ago

Wasnt nash filthy on switches tho lol. the lakers tried to swirch and him and he schmeated them right?

Ideally both guys could attack the mismatch but 1 is fine too.

I think that youd have to consider that defense isnt perfectly excuted most of the time, and the nash and amsre pick snd roll can punish these just by athleticism more than the murray and jokic (of the roll man), and that as good as murray and hokic are they arent nash at finding the right secondary options

I forgot how it worked but we did something when we went big on those mirray pick and rolls that went pretty well in g1-2 and 4. Murray hit wild shots but the execution was fine

Untelated note, Theyre both great especially in tandem but in a vacuum tbf jokic isnt that great of a pick and roll partner. Hes good off the pop and great vs switches and good on the short roll but if he ran it with a guy like rondo the action would kinda suck.

Its just murrays good rnough that if the roll man wasnt good ud blitz, but obv u cant do that against jokic. Not to mention how good he is as stringing it out and forcing switches as well. I do think that if jokic was more athletic itd make a big difference and theyd be actually undefendable,even more so than now

[Doctor MJ]

The fact that the adjustment that shut down the most unguardable pick and roll in 20 years was basically just giving Jamal Murray a wide open runway and asking LeBron to try and chasedown block him is absolutely nutty to me

I can't keep calling AD the best player in the playoffs if he's not gonna mix it up on the glass. Right now Bron is out-boarding and out-facilitating him while playing even better rim defense.

Most unguardable pick and roll in the last 20 years?

Did Nash/Amare and Steph/Kd die?

LMFAO Nash and Amare, give me a break. Modern day schemes would just put two wing defenders on both of them, switch the pnr and watch Amare get devoured by a double team with his horrible post passing and mediocre post game. Steph and KD would have taken the crown if KD actually made contact on his screens and not slipped them all the time.

Dude, you're talking about something that was basically unstoppable from 2004 to 2010 as if 1) nobody was trying to stop it, and 2) it was 500 years ago and no one had ever heard of double teams.

If it were that simple to stop, teams would have stopped it.

[Doctor MJ]

Wasnt nash filthy on switches tho lol. the lakers tried to swirch and him and he schmeated them right?

Right. The whole thing about the pick & roll is that it gives the offense options. When you have a 1) as good of a passer as has ever existed who is also 2) about as good as anyone in history at hitting any kind of shot and 3) as good a decision maker as has ever played basketball, and 4) the roll partner is a physical freak and 5) everyone else on the floor is spaced and can hit from range, you are always going to have options.

You can do things to mitigate by picking the proper poisons, but this isn't a thing where someone later came along with a perfect defensive counter that was beyond the imagination of people from literally just a decade ago.

To me the much bigger concerns for the Nash Suns in this era is how bad they'd be hurt with a smart offensive scheme making use of switches to hunt Nash. People back then thought that Nash was a far more negative defender than he ever was in practice, but it's entirely possible that now he'd actually be that problematic.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Wasnt nash filthy on switches tho lol. the lakers tried to swirch and him and he schmeated them right?

Right. The whole thing about the pick & roll is that it gives the offense options. When you have a 1) as good of a passer as has ever existed who is also 2) about as good as anyone in history at hitting any kind of shot and 3) as good a decision maker as has ever played basketball, and 4) the roll partner is a physical freak and 5) everyone else on the floor is spaced and can hit from range, you are always going to have options.

You can do things to mitigate by picking the proper poisons, but this isn't a thing where someone later came along with a perfect defensive counter that was beyond the imagination of people from literally just a decade ago.

To me the much bigger concerns for the Nash Suns in this era is how bad they'd be hurt with a smart offensive scheme making use of switches to hunt Nash. People back then thought that Nash was a far more negative defender than he ever was in practice, but it's entirely possible that now he'd actually be that problematic.

I mean the main thing was he was too small but quick footed right? One defenders a leak and theres that ooomph effect when all 5 guys are switchy but nash probably wasnt bad enoigh as a 1v1 defender for it to be as big of a deal as people were saying, esp if he can make up for it with smart team d which he was decent at

Hed be sucky defensively in certain matchups but over a season it wouldnt be too bad