2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Doctor MJ]

Wasnt nash filthy on switches tho lol. the lakers tried to swirch and him and he schmeated them right?

Right. The whole thing about the pick & roll is that it gives the offense options. When you have a 1) as good of a passer as has ever existed who is also 2) about as good as anyone in history at hitting any kind of shot and 3) as good a decision maker as has ever played basketball, and 4) the roll partner is a physical freak and 5) everyone else on the floor is spaced and can hit from range, you are always going to have options.

You can do things to mitigate by picking the proper poisons, but this isn't a thing where someone later came along with a perfect defensive counter that was beyond the imagination of people from literally just a decade ago.

To me the much bigger concerns for the Nash Suns in this era is how bad they'd be hurt with a smart offensive scheme making use of switches to hunt Nash. People back then thought that Nash was a far more negative defender than he ever was in practice, but it's entirely possible that now he'd actually be that problematic.

I mean the main thing was he was too small but quick footed right? One defenders a leak and theres that ooomph effect when all 5 guys are switchy but nash probably wasnt bad enoigh as a 1v1 defender for it to be as big of a deal as people were saying, esp if he can make up for it with smart team d which he was decent at

Hed be sucky defensively in certain matchups but over a season it wouldnt be too bad

No, I'd say 1v1 is exactly what Nash was weak at.

On the positive side, Nash was known for making very few mistakes on team defense - he played within the role he was tasked with on defense and part of that meant not gambling for steals (though he did make some heady steals during key moments).

Re: over a season. Oh over a season it would never be much of an issue. It's a question of how well he could be exploited in a playoff series if the offense systematically attacked him.

[freethedevil]

@docmj Think you should reconsider ranking butler over embid.

[Dupp]

Butler has brought so much to that team that goes way beyond the box score.

Hero is a rookie, bam is in his third year, Duncan is in his second year, dragic is having his best season in a while and crowder hasn’t looked this good since Boston etc.. Yeah Miami’s culture and coaching personal is a big factor but butler is the glue that has brought it all together and turned them into a legit title contender seemingly out of no where.

Look at phillys fall without butler. Embiid and Ben got another year to develop but swapping butler out for Horford and Richardson has made them so much worse. That may not be a surprise but the gapping gap in this years philly to last year is another credit to butler.


Then of course is his play. He’s been high impact all year and particularly in the playoffs. He’s continually been clutch in 4th quarters. He’s not a high volume scorer or even a consistent scorer but on the flip to that is he doesn’t need to score to have an impact and plays very much within the flow of the offense. Which has allowed others the really excel. Still when they have needed him he’s come up big in fourth quarters.


I wouldn’t even consider Joel over butler in this vote. The leadership gap alone is just too big.

[GSP]

Butler has brought so much to that team that goes way beyond the box score.

Hero is a rookie, bam is in his third year, Duncan is in his second year, dragic is having his best season in a while and crowder hasn’t looked this good since Boston etc.. Yeah Miami’s culture and coaching personal is a big factor but butler is the glue that has brought it all together and turned them into a legit title contender seemingly out of no where.

Look at phillys fall without butler. Embiid and Ben got another year to develop but swapping butler out for Horford and Richardson has made them so much worse. That may not be a surprise but the gapping gap in this years philly to last year is another credit to butler.


Then of course is his play. He’s been high impact all year and particularly in the playoffs. He’s continually been clutch in 4th quarters. He’s not a high volume scorer or even a consistent scorer but on the flip to that is he doesn’t need to score to have an impact and plays very much within the flow of the offense. Which has allowed others the really excel. Still when they have needed him he’s come up big in fourth quarters.


I wouldn’t even consider Joel over butler in this vote. The leadership gap alone is just too big.

Its insane ppl can still question Jimmys impact

Wolves only playoff appearance post Kg with him and they were a top 4 seed when he was healthy IIRC

Sixers took the champs to their toughest series in a game 7 literal last shot scenario. Philly also had the best lineup in the league short of the Hamptons 5. That Sixers/Raptors series completely changed after game 1 when Brett Brown put the ball in Jimmys hands and let him be the main ball handler and run pick and roll for them

Miami is about to make the finals as a 5 seed.

weird rationalizations to not give Jimmy his credit

[freethedevil]

Butler has brought so much to that team that goes way beyond the box score.

Hero is a rookie, bam is in his third year, Duncan is in his second year, dragic is having his best season in a while and crowder hasn’t looked this good since Boston etc.. Yeah Miami’s culture and coaching personal is a big factor but butler is the glue that has brought it all together and turned them into a legit title contender seemingly out of no where.

Look at phillys fall without butler. Embiid and Ben got another year to develop but swapping butler out for Horford and Richardson has made them so much worse. That may not be a surprise but the gapping gap in this years philly to last year is another credit to butler.


Then of course is his play. He’s been high impact all year and particularly in the playoffs. He’s continually been clutch in 4th quarters. He’s not a high volume scorer or even a consistent scorer but on the flip to that is he doesn’t need to score to have an impact and plays very much within the flow of the offense. Which has allowed others the really excel. Still when they have needed him he’s come up big in fourth quarters.


I wouldn’t even consider Joel over butler in this vote. The leadership gap alone is just too big.

Butler's not been nearly as good agasint the same opponent embid played and he was clearly worse last playoffs. Relying on off court impact to argue that a gap of an orderof maginitude in terms of on court play is dubious.

Also, while I'm sure butler deserves some credit, I don't really see why he would get anywhere near as much credit as Spo and the heat's development team for the development of their young players. Butler ismply isn't anywher e near as good as embid, even in the worst of circumstances embid played much better against the same .

[freethedevil]

Butler has brought so much to that team that goes way beyond the box score.

Hero is a rookie, bam is in his third year, Duncan is in his second year, dragic is having his best season in a while and crowder hasn’t looked this good since Boston etc.. Yeah Miami’s culture and coaching personal is a big factor but butler is the glue that has brought it all together and turned them into a legit title contender seemingly out of no where.

Look at phillys fall without butler. Embiid and Ben got another year to develop but swapping butler out for Horford and Richardson has made them so much worse. That may not be a surprise but the gapping gap in this years philly to last year is another credit to butler.


Then of course is his play. He’s been high impact all year and particularly in the playoffs. He’s continually been clutch in 4th quarters. He’s not a high volume scorer or even a consistent scorer but on the flip to that is he doesn’t need to score to have an impact and plays very much within the flow of the offense. Which has allowed others the really excel. Still when they have needed him he’s come up big in fourth quarters.


I wouldn’t even consider Joel over butler in this vote. The leadership gap alone is just too big.

Its insane ppl can still question Jimmys impact

Wolves only playoff appearance post Kg with him and they were a top 4 seed when he was healthy IIRC

Sixers took the champs to their toughest series in a game 7 literal last shot scenario. Philly also had the best lineup in the league short of the Hamptons 5. That Sixers/Raptors series completely changed after game 1 when Brett Brown put the ball in Jimmys hands and let him be the main ball handler and run pick and roll for them

Miami is about to make the finals as a 5 seed.

weird rationalizations to not give Jimmy his credit

Hilarious how you tried to group the sixers, who were able to make the playoffs twice without butler with the other two teams to fit your narrative.

And yeah, the sixers almost beat the raptors, with EMBID easily being the most important player on the team.

[Doctor MJ]

@docmj Think you should reconsider ranking butler over embid.

If Embiid is on the Heat this year, he's home by now. Culture matters.

[Doctor MJ]

Butler's not been nearly as good agasint the same opponent embid played and he was clearly worse last playoffs. Relying on off court impact to argue that a gap of an orderof maginitude in terms of on court play is dubious.

Also, while I'm sure butler deserves some credit, I don't really see why he would get anywhere near as much credit as Spo and the heat's development team for the development of their young players. Butler ismply isn't anywher e near as good as embid, even in the worst of circumstances embid played much better against the same .

Butler was essential to the empowerment of other players on the roster just as Spo and Haslem are. You put most alphas on this team and you don't get the breakout performances by the Herros of the world. The very thing that makes Butler's year less impressive from a top-tier POY perspective is the thing that is allowing the Heat to round into form right now.

Does that mean you'd rather have Butler than LeBron "Just go ahead and trade Brandon Ingram, I want to work with vetrans like Javale McGree" James? No, because LeBron is LeBron. His play more than makes up for the difference.

Most guys are not LeBron though. Embiid could really an empowering culture in order to get the best out of himself and his perimeter players and he really doesn't seem to have the mindset to generate it when encountering any kind of adversity.

I will say, it's fine if you think I'm letting small sample size effect my assessment of Embiid too much - such assessments are always imperfect and subject to change with more information - but if you can't get behind the importance of Butler's cultural impact we have a bigger philosophical disagreement.

[freethedevil]

@docmj Think you should reconsider ranking butler over embid.

If Embiid is on the Heat this year, he's home by now. Culture matters.

Well first, giving butler all the credit for the heat's culture seems silly. The heat were a wll run orginazition with an exceptional coach and with a top tier development team with or without butler. You're really shooting in the dark when you say what ever butler added off the court is more valuable than upgrading from a fringe all star to a superstar.


Second, can't really prove a counterfactual, but frankly, given embid is a much better defender and a much better interior scorer, its quite possible the heat would already be in the finals given what embid's already done to the celtics in much worse cirumstances. It's also worth questioning what happens if butler was in philly instead of embid. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't even sniff the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

Hilarious how you tried to group the sixers, who were able to make the playoffs twice without butler with the other two teams to fit your narrative.

And yeah, the sixers almost beat the raptors, with EMBID easily being the most important player on the team.

I think it's fine you taking issue with the specifics of his point to a degree, but probably the most significant thing about Butler's legacy now is the way each team he's been on hasn't just improved, but actually showed fight when he's there, and when he leaves it's like a popped ballon.

Re: Embiid most important player on 76ers last year. Totally agree. I ranked Embiid's accomplishment ahead of Butler's, but it has to be noted that Butler's accomplishment wasn't simply a lesser version of Embiid's. It was of course Embiid's team, Butler got traded there midseason and found a way to fit in and reinforce what they had. That type of portability, along with the locker room impact, has everything to do with why he was the perfect guy to add to the Heat to catalyze them.

Incidentally, I'm quite critical of how Butler handled the situation in Minnesota. While his assessment of KAT & Wiggins was basically dead on, Butler damaged that franchise, damaged the reputation of the man who made him (Thibs), and possibly damaged the players he was around for the long-term. I'm certainly not saying that Butler gives you a pure intangible boost in all situations, it's more like he carries a certain vector of force and the question is in what direction it will go in a given scenario. It's powerful, and right now in Miami, it's been entirely in the positive direction.

[Doctor MJ]

@docmj Think you should reconsider ranking butler over embid.

If Embiid is on the Heat this year, he's home by now. Culture matters.

Well first, giving butler all the credit for the heat's culture seems silly. The heat were a wll run orginazition with an exceptional coach and with a top tier development team with or without butler. You're really shooting in the dark when you say what ever butler added off the court is more valuable than upgrading from a fringe all star to a superstar.


Second, can't really prove a counterfactual, but frankly, given embid is a much better defender and a much better interior scorer, its quite possible the heat would already be in the finals given what embid's already done to the celtics in much worse cirumstances. It's also worth questioning what happens if butler was in philly instead of embid. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't even sniff the playoffs.

Didn't say he deserves all the credit. Riley, Spo, Haslem, and Dwyane Wade all deserve a lot of credit for building the culture there. It's important though to not look at this as a Boolean variable. Butler had the positive impact he did this year because he could build on top of what came before, but he built quite a lot.

Re: Embiid superstar. Look when Embiid has it all going he's amazing, but the 76ers by the end of this year looked like a team that would have lost to a set of traffic cones. If I'm going to feel a strong pull to put Embiid on my end of year list, I expect more.

And look, you can say "Yeah but there were injuries, and bad luck and this and that", but understand: My yearly POY assessment is based on what I actually saw from the player that year, not what might have been. Embiid missed about 1/3rd of the season and his numbers were down basically across the board from last year in the time he played. It was a down year.

By contrast in my GOAT rankings, having a "everything went wrong" year doesn't necessarily matter that much to me. What I saw out of Embiid this year is not how I see "Joel Embiid the Top 100 Candidate" on the whole, and it will only become a big part of "Joel Embiid" in the long run if it serves as a sign of things to come.

I won't deny though that I'm worried for Embiid going forward, and I say that as a guy who has been pretty high on him.

[Dupp]

Butler clearly took a back seat in philly last season which speaks to his portability. He got given the keys during the raptors series and was much better.
None of that means he’s better or worse than Embiid he was just doing what was asked of him.
It’s also not about attributing the heats culture to butler. But adding him and then them becoming legit contenders is a huge deal. Like you add someone like Embiid, Paul George, Dame etc to this team and I really doubt the jump they make is this massive..


Playing against the same team in the first round Is not equal to playing that team in the conference finals. Especially when it’s a sweep. Teams play better as the playoffs go and just do what they have to to win against lesser competition. Circumstances are not like for like.


Re Embiids play: His scoring finally was good in the playoffs, how did it effect the teams offense? His d wasn’t what it was last post season though and neither was his overall impact.
He’s yet to put it all together in the post season. This isn’t a relevant point to the discussion at hand I’m just saying. Embiid still has so much more upside in the playoffs.

[Dupp]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

[Homer38]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

I would put Harden ahead of Kawhi for this year...Harden was much better in the regular season and the difference in the playoffs were not huge.

[Dupp]

Ahhh so anyway I have no idea but here’s a rough idea of what I think


Davis
Lebron
Joker
Giannis
Luka
Butler
Harden
Kawhi
Tatum
Lilly
Lowry
Murray
Cp3?

I feel like butler may end up third and I’m assuming Lakers best the nuggets.I don’t really have a clear head in this ranking it’s so tough and I’m sure I’ve left one or two obvious guys out

[Dupp]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

I would put Harden ahead of Kawhi for this year...Harden was much better in the regular season and the difference in the playoffs were not huge.

I agree and did in the post above. I was more rambling on about being better as a player than better season in that post.

[mikejames23]

Hmm. I don't know what to think of Jayson Tatum. I really want him in my Top 5 but there are too many competitors for Top 5.

Butler
Doncic
Harden
Kawhi
Paul
Lillard
Lowry and/or Siakam is a good debate vs Tatum types.

So Tatum's right in there for the Top 15 race, maybe Top 10, but can't seem to quite be in the Top 5 discussion. Damn though, great player.

[Doctor MJ]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

Indeed. Very tough year that could get a lot tougher still. Imagine a scenario where the Heat win the title with Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro as Finals MVP, you confident in how you'd make sense of these things? I'm not.

The AD vs Giannis question is outstanding and I'll double down and ask: If the Lakers win the title with AD continuing to play as he has been, is he higher on the GOAT list than Giannis with his 2 MVPs? I mean, I don't think it's random that took his draft team further than AD did with his, but I have to imagine I'll have more confidence in AD's ability to be a star on a champion after I've seen him actually be a star on a champion.

I don't want to commit to a ranking right now because I don't want to feel chained to it, but I'll say that LeBron/AD are going to have have strong cases for 1/2 or 2/1 if the win the title.

Other questions:

Is Davis better than LeBron? He might be on-court, but off-court-wise LeBron's effect is going to count for a lot for me. If on-court is even debatable, I expect I'll side with LeBron.

Kawhi exposed by Nuggets? Definitely to some degree. Man defender who seems completely flummoxed by a genius team-oriented opponent.

Kawhi still best player? I think Kawhi's limitations got exposed quite hard by Doc. You're talking about an particularly individually-mind player on both sides of the ball who is not going to fill in the gaps for you. He can do certain things really, really well, your job as coach is to fill in everything else around him. And granted that's harder to do after you mortgage all your best assets to acquire a second star who isn't a great fit with Kawhi in order to get Kawhi.

I think it makes sense to look at the Raptors' performance this season with Nick Nurse at the helm and really ask if you think Kawhi gets past the Bucks if he doesn't have a supporting cast and coaching edge. Ditto for the Warriors with the added thing of them being crippled with injury.

As I say that, I'll say two rather contradictory things: 1) I do think Kawhi has proven himself more than Giannis in the playoffs and would tend to rank Kawhi higher, but 2) I really think I'm going to end up voting Giannis ahead of Kawhi. Giannis had by far the better regular season, and Kawhi didn't carry his team any further than Giannis did.

Luka. I think it's likely Luka will miss my Top 5 POY but win my #1 OPOY vote. That's weird and speaks to how close things are stacking up.

[Homer38]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

Indeed. Very tough year that could get a lot tougher still. Imagine a scenario where the Heat win the title with Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro as Finals MVP, you confident in how you'd make sense of these things? I'm not.

The AD vs Giannis question is outstanding and I'll double down and ask: If the Lakers win the title with AD continuing to play as he has been, is he higher on the GOAT list than Giannis with his 2 MVPs? I mean, I don't think it's random that took his draft team further than AD did with his, but I have to imagine I'll have more confidence in AD's ability to be a star on a champion after I've seen him actually be a star on a champion.

I don't want to commit to a ranking right now because I don't want to feel chained to it, but I'll say that LeBron/AD are going to have have strong cases for 1/2 or 2/1 if the win the title.

Other questions:

Is Davis better than LeBron? He might be on-court, but off-court-wise LeBron's effect is going to count for a lot for me. If on-court is even debatable, I expect I'll side with LeBron.

Kawhi exposed by Nuggets? Definitely to some degree. Man defender who seems completely flummoxed by a genius team-oriented opponent.

Kawhi still best player? I think Kawhi's limitations got exposed quite hard by Doc. You're talking about an particularly individually-mind player on both sides of the ball who is not going to fill in the gaps for you. He can do certain things really, really well, your job as coach is to fill in everything else around him. And granted that's harder to do after you mortgage all your best assets to acquire a second star who isn't a great fit with Kawhi in order to get Kawhi.

I think it makes sense to look at the Raptors' performance this season with Nick Nurse at the helm and really ask if you think Kawhi gets past the Bucks if he doesn't have a supporting cast and coaching edge. Ditto for the Warriors with the added thing of them being crippled with injury.

As I say that, I'll say two rather contradictory things: 1) I do think Kawhi has proven himself more than Giannis in the playoffs and would tend to rank Kawhi higher, but 2) I really think I'm going to end up voting Giannis ahead of Kawhi. Giannis had by far the better regular season, and Kawhi didn't carry his team any further than Giannis did.

Luka. I think it's likely Luka will miss my Top 5 POY but win my #1 OPOY vote. That's weird and speaks to how close things are stacking up.

Who do you put higher between Harden and Kawhi?

[Doctor MJ]

Who do you put higher between Harden and Kawhi?

Kawhi. I had Kawhi higher after the regular season though so I'm basically just holding that the same. In a lot of ways they're situations are quite similar, but the fact that I've never taken Houston all that seriously since they acquired Westbrook matters here. I feel like it's within the realm of possibility that the Clippers win the title next year with a few adjustments. To me the Rockets are just spinning their wheels.