Nets Going Forward: Planning for Next Season

[DarkXaero]

All the data points to him being a below average shooter who will cost us Dinwiddie and Allen and tie up 30% of our cap space.

He’s been in the league 10 years, all his shots are either open or wide open and he’s still pretty bad. Last year he took 318 shots from his preferred spot, above the break, and made only 31% of them.

He also could just walk in free agency which means we lost both Dinwiddie and Allen for nothing.

There’s no chance Marks will put us in that situation.

Dude, he shot 35.3% from 3pt this year on 5.7 attempts per game, and that includes 36.4% from catch & shoot 3s, what are you on about with preferred spot? You're just focusing on the negatives because of stubbornness at this point, when nearly everyone here sees the value of Jrue. I get the point about the one year remaining on his deal, but as it has been stated before, GMs/front offices do their homework before signing off on the trade, and they won't do it unless they feel confident about Jrue being here long-term. And going by Jrue's character, someone who is a loyal, great guy by all accounts, who does a lot of community/charity work, he's definitely not a mercenary.

For $30 million, I don’t want someone whose barely league average in a good year.

I’m not saying he has to shoot like Harden, Klay, Beal, LaVine, Mitchell, or Booker....but for all assets and cap space it would take to get him, don’t you want someone a little more reliable?

Since when is 35% from 3 on good volume bad? He's not a great shooter by any means but he's not the mediocre shooter either that you're painting him to be. He's also one of the best defenders in the league unlike those guys (except Klay). But Klay doesn't make $30 mill, he's on a $38 mill/yr contract.

[ProspectPark]

Yeah I'm not sure how anyone can look at the data on Jrue or the eye test and not want him next to Irving in the backcourt. The cost of doing business is the issue with Jrue, not the player or his impact. Trading our assets for a one year rental is a risky proposition.

All the data points to him being a below average shooter who will cost us Dinwiddie and Allen and tie up 30% of our cap space.

He’s been in the league 10 years, all his shots are either open or wide open and he’s still pretty bad. Last year he took 318 shots from his preferred spot, above the break, and made only 31% of them.

He also could just walk in free agency which means we lost both Dinwiddie and Allen for nothing.

There’s no chance Marks will put us in that situation.

35% from downtown is below average?

I'm not arguing for the trade mind you, the cost/cap space is a legit criticism. I don't think the guy is below average as a shooter and he's a plus defender that averaged 19/5/7, what's not to like about him as a player?

In a league dominated by offensive players, if we’re going to give $30 million to a guard, in my opinion that guard needs to be elite offensively.

Just looking at offense, where would you rank Jrue among backcourt players?

Not in order:

Harden
Curry
Luka
Irving
Dame
Beal
Klay
Mitchell
Trae
CP
Booker
Lowry
Murray
LaVine
PG
SGA
Brown
CJ
Ja
Brogdon
Westbrook
Dipo
DLo
Rubio
Simmons
FVV
Fox
Dinwiddie
Jrue

[ProspectPark]

Dude, he shot 35.3% from 3pt this year on 5.7 attempts per game, and that includes 36.4% from catch & shoot 3s, what are you on about with preferred spot? You're just focusing on the negatives because of stubbornness at this point, when nearly everyone here sees the value of Jrue. I get the point about the one year remaining on his deal, but as it has been stated before, GMs/front offices do their homework before signing off on the trade, and they won't do it unless they feel confident about Jrue being here long-term. And going by Jrue's character, someone who is a loyal, great guy by all accounts, who does a lot of community/charity work, he's definitely not a mercenary.

For $30 million, I don’t want someone whose barely league average in a good year.

I’m not saying he has to shoot like Harden, Klay, Beal, LaVine, Mitchell, or Booker....but for all assets and cap space it would take to get him, don’t you want someone a little more reliable?

Since when is 35% from 3 on good volume bad? He's not a great shooter by any means but he's not the mediocre shooter either that you're painting him to be. He's also one of the best defenders in the league unlike those guys (except Klay). But Klay doesn't make $30 mill, he's on a $38 mill/yr contract.

I made a list of guards in the post above. Where would you rank him offensively? Is he in your top 10?

[DarkXaero]

For $30 million, I don’t want someone whose barely league average in a good year.

I’m not saying he has to shoot like Harden, Klay, Beal, LaVine, Mitchell, or Booker....but for all assets and cap space it would take to get him, don’t you want someone a little more reliable?

Since when is 35% from 3 on good volume bad? He's not a great shooter by any means but he's not the mediocre shooter either that you're painting him to be. He's also one of the best defenders in the league unlike those guys (except Klay). But Klay doesn't make $30 mill, he's on a $38 mill/yr contract.

I made a list of guards in the post above. Where would you rank him offensively? Is he in your top 10?

No, and I don't think anyone is claiming that he's top 10 offensively among guards. Just because we think he's a good or decent offensive player doesn't mean that we think he's a top 10 offensive guard. He is however a top 2 or at worst, top 3 defender among all guards, and that's where his real value is. That's why a lot of us want him here.

[MrDollarBills]

A good defensive guard that's basically in the 20/5/5 club isn't some scrub. That 26 million a year is pretty much market value, look at what DLo makes and I would take Jrue over Dlo

[ProspectPark]

Since when is 35% from 3 on good volume bad? He's not a great shooter by any means but he's not the mediocre shooter either that you're painting him to be. He's also one of the best defenders in the league unlike those guys (except Klay). But Klay doesn't make $30 mill, he's on a $38 mill/yr contract.

I made a list of guards in the post above. Where would you rank him offensively? Is he in your top 10?

No, and I don't think anyone is claiming that he's top 10 offensively among guards. Just because we think he's a good or decent offensive player doesn't mean that we think he's a top 10 offensive guard. He is however a top 2 or at worst, top 3 defender among all guards, and that's where his real value is. That's why a lot of us want him here.

The entire purpose of the game is to put the ball in the basket. If you’re a guard and you can’t do that at an elite level, then you are not worth $30 million. He’s made the all-star team like once in his whole career.

Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart, Klay, Danny Green, Iguodala, Butler, Kyle Lowry, FVV, Bledsoe, Jaylen Brown, Thybulle, and many others are all better than him.

Pelicans with Jrue have been bad defensively year in year out. Can we stop pretending like he’s some Ben Wallace type that fixes everything.

[ProspectPark]

A good defensive guard that's basically in the 20/5/5 club isn't some scrub. That 26 million a year is pretty much market value, look at what DLo makes and I would take Jrue over Dlo

Again bro you keep making straw man arguments. No one called Holiday a scrub. Tobias Harris, Al Horford, John Wall, Buddy Hield...None of these players are scrubs. The question is are they worth the ridiculous contracts they were signed to.

You can talk yourself into paying anyone the max if you try hard enough. Holiday at best isn’t even a top 20 guard in the NBA, and yet you not only want to trade Dinwiddie and Allen for him but then you also want to completely destroy our cap flexibility going forward.

I’m sure there were people in the 6ers front office that made the same arguments for Tobias Harris that you are making about Jrue Holiday.

[Paradise]

Apparently Nets are looking hard at Roberson.

https://www.netsdaily.com/2020/9/24/21453784/will-the-nets-use-mle-to-bolster-defense-could-it-be-a-family-affair

I think hes the perfect fit. He will be huge defensively and we have so much offense on this team anyway.

I doubt KD wants to play with him again. Roberson can’t shoot, dribble, or pass. Anytime he steps on the court we’d be playing 4 on 5.

Read on Twitter

I wouldn’t be too sure about that. I think his shot will get better post injury. It looks much smoother since his return.

Watch on YouTube

[MrDollarBills]

A good defensive guard that's basically in the 20/5/5 club isn't some scrub. That 26 million a year is pretty much market value, look at what DLo makes and I would take Jrue over Dlo

Again bro you keep making straw man arguments. No one called Holiday a scrub. Tobias Harris, Al Horford, John Wall, Buddy Hield...None of these players are scrubs. The question is are they worth the ridiculous contracts they were signed to.

You can talk yourself into paying anyone the max if you try hard enough. Holiday at best isn’t even a top 20 guard in the NBA, and yet you not only want to trade Dinwiddie and Allen for him but then you also want to completely destroy our cap flexibility going forward.

I’m sure there were people in the 6ers front office that made the same arguments for Tobias Harris that you are making about Jrue Holiday.

Jrue Holiday is absolutely a top 20 guard in the league. He is a net positive on both ends of the floor. Some of the names that you listed over him are not better. Ricky Rubio? Eric Bledsoe? Matisse Thybulle???????????? Let's see how good Fred VanVleet is next season when he signs a huge deal with the Knicks and defenses are keying in on him. I don't buy the idea that Holiday is not among the leagues best guards at all.

Also, speaking of strawmen arguments, I'm not advocating a trade because of the cost (and also, I don't think New Orleans would trade for Spencer and Jarrett Allen when they have Ball and Hayes)....but I am just pushing back on this notion that Holiday is overpaid. He's not, that is fair market value. If you average 19/5/7 on good percentages in the NBA, you are going to be paid north of 25 million dollars. That's just the reality of the landscape. Now, in a post COVID economy, contracts may be scaled back going forward, but right now he's paid what he's worth.

[MGrand15]

The more I see these playoffs, the more I think the biggest key to our defense is going to be coaching. The 4 teams left absolutely have some great defenders on their team but more than anything, they're getting by with smart and super aggressive defense.

This isn't the cleanest trade but I wouldn't be shocked if we something like

Dinwiddie or LeVert
Allen
Prince
Musa

for

Holiday
Redick

We push hard for Mo Harkless with our MLE. Use our draft pick + minimums to grab some other wing defenders and a back up center. Redick obviously has some overlap with Harris but as a bench guy, I'll definitely gamble on having 2 insanely competitive and smart 45% 3PT shooters and let the coaches figure out how to stagger them. I think the only gamble here is unless we find a really solid backup C - we're betting on Claxton being able to play big minutes when DJ gets ran off the floor.

KD defensively is also a huge question mark. He's long enough and smart enough to still be REALLY good even if he lost a step or 2. If he buys in on that end - like Lebron did with the Lakers this year - it helps A LOT.

Kyrie/LeVert
Holiday/Redick
Harris/Harkless
KD/??
DJ/Claxton

Temple/TLC/Chiozza or Tyler as the emergency guys. We need to figure out KD's back up (hopefully a Crowder type player) especially since he probably misses at least 15-20 games or so but I think it's a pretty damn good balance of offense/defense with potential to legit make our offense unfair.

[Prokorov]

All the data points to him being a below average shooter who will cost us Dinwiddie and Allen and tie up 30% of our cap space.

He’s been in the league 10 years, all his shots are either open or wide open and he’s still pretty bad. Last year he took 318 shots from his preferred spot, above the break, and made only 31% of them.

He also could just walk in free agency which means we lost both Dinwiddie and Allen for nothing.

There’s no chance Marks will put us in that situation.

Dude, he shot 35.3% from 3pt this year on 5.7 attempts per game, and that includes 36.4% from catch & shoot 3s, what are you on about with preferred spot? You're just focusing on the negatives because of stubbornness at this point, when nearly everyone here sees the value of Jrue. I get the point about the one year remaining on his deal, but as it has been stated before, GMs/front offices do their homework before signing off on the trade, and they won't do it unless they feel confident about Jrue being here long-term. And going by Jrue's character, someone who is a loyal, great guy by all accounts, who does a lot of community/charity work, he's definitely not a mercenary.

For $30 million, I don’t want someone whose barely league average in a good year.

I’m not saying he has to shoot like Harden, Klay, Beal, LaVine, Mitchell, or Booker....but for all assets and cap space it would take to get him, don’t you want someone a little more reliable?

3 point shooting is a side benefit with Jrue. you are bringing him in because he is the leagues best defender among non-bigs who is also a 2-way player who can drop 20+ on you in his sleep. its not like he is some scrub shooting 30% from deep on 2 attempts per game.

he is as elite as it get defensively and very good offensively. and he is exactly what we need.

[Prokorov]

For $30 million, I don’t want someone whose barely league average in a good year.

I’m not saying he has to shoot like Harden, Klay, Beal, LaVine, Mitchell, or Booker....but for all assets and cap space it would take to get him, don’t you want someone a little more reliable?

Since when is 35% from 3 on good volume bad? He's not a great shooter by any means but he's not the mediocre shooter either that you're painting him to be. He's also one of the best defenders in the league unlike those guys (except Klay). But Klay doesn't make $30 mill, he's on a $38 mill/yr contract.

I made a list of guards in the post above. Where would you rank him offensively? Is he in your top 10?

Jrue makes 26 million, not 30. and he is above quite a few guys on that list. he was 19/7/5 as a 3rd option

[Prokorov]

The entire purpose of the game is to put the ball in the basket. If you’re a guard and you can’t do that at an elite level, then you are not worth $30 million. He’s made the all-star team like once in his whole career.

1) he doesnt make 20 million
2) he can put the ball in the basket. how many guys are giving you 19-20 points as a 3rd option

Defense also matter. if it didnt, houston would have won a title with the group they have

Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart, Klay, Danny Green, Iguodala, Butler, Kyle Lowry, FVV, Bledsoe, Jaylen Brown, Thybulle, and many others are all better than him.

Iggy, Green, Bledsoe Thybule are 100% not as good as Jrue and it isnt even remotely close. Smart is just Jrue with worse offense. Ben simmons will get the max. Klay already has it. who are these "many others" better than jrue?

Pelicans with Jrue have been bad defensively year in year out. Can we stop pretending like he’s some Ben Wallace type that fixes everything.

its a team sport.

KD and many others have said he is the leagues best guard defender. and KD striaght up laughed at the notion you mentioned that the media left him off all-nba because he his team was poor defensively when they all know he is a beast. like KD legit is laughing at you.

[Prokorov]

A good defensive guard that's basically in the 20/5/5 club isn't some scrub. That 26 million a year is pretty much market value, look at what DLo makes and I would take Jrue over Dlo

Again bro you keep making straw man arguments. No one called Holiday a scrub. Tobias Harris, Al Horford, John Wall, Buddy Hield...None of these players are scrubs. The question is are they worth the ridiculous contracts they were signed to.

You can talk yourself into paying anyone the max if you try hard enough. Holiday at best isn’t even a top 20 guard in the NBA, and yet you not only want to trade Dinwiddie and Allen for him but then you also want to completely destroy our cap flexibility going forward.

I’m sure there were people in the 6ers front office that made the same arguments for Tobias Harris that you are making about Jrue Holiday.

Who are the 19 guards you have ahead of Jrue?

[MrDollarBills]

I just realized that 7 Foot says that Danny Green is better than Jrue Holiday.

[DarkXaero]

I just realized that 7 Foot says that Danny Green is better than Jrue Holiday.

I saw the names on that list, and I was like "yeah, it's not even worth responding to".

[DarkXaero]

The more I see these playoffs, the more I think the biggest key to our defense is going to be coaching. The 4 teams left absolutely have some great defenders on their team but more than anything, they're getting by with smart and super aggressive defense.

This isn't the cleanest trade but I wouldn't be shocked if we something like

Dinwiddie or LeVert
Allen
Prince
Musa

for

Holiday
Redick

We push hard for Mo Harkless with our MLE. Use our draft pick + minimums to grab some other wing defenders and a back up center. Redick obviously has some overlap with Harris but as a bench guy, I'll definitely gamble on having 2 insanely competitive and smart 45% 3PT shooters and let the coaches figure out how to stagger them. I think the only gamble here is unless we find a really solid backup C - we're betting on Claxton being able to play big minutes when DJ gets ran off the floor.

KD defensively is also a huge question mark. He's long enough and smart enough to still be REALLY good even if he lost a step or 2. If he buys in on that end - like Lebron did with the Lakers this year - it helps A LOT.

Kyrie/LeVert
Holiday/Redick
Harris/Harkless
KD/??
DJ/Claxton

Temple/TLC/Chiozza or Tyler as the emergency guys. We need to figure out KD's back up (hopefully a Crowder type player) especially since he probably misses at least 15-20 games or so but I think it's a pretty damn good balance of offense/defense with potential to legit make our offense unfair.

That is exactly the type of trade I suggest in this thread's OP back in January, but that was when Levert's value seemed a lot lower. I feel like at this point, giving up Levert (or Dinwiddie) + Allen + Prince for Jrue + JJ is a lot. You're trading much younger players for two expiring contracts there, and I think that should be accounted for.

[ProspectPark]

I just realized that 7 Foot says that Danny Green is better than Jrue Holiday.

Not better. Better defender.

An argument was made that Holiday was a top 2 defender in the league. I then listed 10 players who are better defenders and Danny Green was one of them.

Read on Twitter

[ProspectPark]

Dude, he shot 35.3% from 3pt this year on 5.7 attempts per game, and that includes 36.4% from catch & shoot 3s, what are you on about with preferred spot? You're just focusing on the negatives because of stubbornness at this point, when nearly everyone here sees the value of Jrue. I get the point about the one year remaining on his deal, but as it has been stated before, GMs/front offices do their homework before signing off on the trade, and they won't do it unless they feel confident about Jrue being here long-term. And going by Jrue's character, someone who is a loyal, great guy by all accounts, who does a lot of community/charity work, he's definitely not a mercenary.

For $30 million, I don’t want someone whose barely league average in a good year.

I’m not saying he has to shoot like Harden, Klay, Beal, LaVine, Mitchell, or Booker....but for all assets and cap space it would take to get him, don’t you want someone a little more reliable?

3 point shooting is a side benefit with Jrue. you are bringing him in because he is the leagues best defender among non-bigs who is also a 2-way player who can drop 20+ on you in his sleep. its not like he is some scrub shooting 30% from deep on 2 attempts per game.

he is as elite as it get defensively and very good offensively. and he is exactly what we need.

Compared to the elite guards in the league, he’s mediocre on offense.

Not even in the same league as Steph, Kyrie, Dame, Harden, Doncic.
Not even in the same universe as Beal, Klay, Mitchell, Murray, Booker, Trae, LaVine.
Even players like Lowry, CP, Kemba, CJ, Brown, Schroeder, SGA, Brogdon are light years better than him.

[ProspectPark]

1) he doesnt make 20 million
2) he can put the ball in the basket. how many guys are giving you 19-20 points as a 3rd option

Defense also matter. if it didnt, houston would have won a title with the group they have



Iggy, Green, Bledsoe Thybule are 100% not as good as Jrue and it isnt even remotely close. Smart is just Jrue with worse offense. Ben simmons will get the max. Klay already has it. who are these "many others" better than jrue?

its a team sport.

KD and many others have said he is the leagues best guard defender. and KD striaght up laughed at the notion you mentioned that the media left him off all-nba because he his team was poor defensively when they all know he is a beast. like KD legit is laughing at you.

The Pelicans with Jrue have been a joke defensively for years. Jrue surrounded by Kyrie, Harris, KD, and DJ would be similar.

They are discussing the validity of the award, but the fact still remains, The Pelicans with Jrue Holiday are a joke defensively year in year out.