2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[yoyoboy]

I feel giannis should at least get a mention though lol

It really shows how star studded the West is compared to the East that you thought Doc was ranking guys in both conferences.

[Timmyyy]

For the people a lot lower on Davis, my question is why? What would he need to be doing to end up higher on your list? In these playoffs he’s scoring 29 ppg on 66% TS. He’s passing the ball pretty well and not turning it over much. Defensively he’s been great even if his impact was a bit neutered the past 2 series with the Rockets playing 5 out and pulling him away from the basket as well as having to stick on Jokic a lot and not being able to help at the rim as much as he’s shown in the past. But his ability to switch onto Murray out of the PnR was crucial in the series and he did as good of a job on Joker as you can hope for. And his off ball scoring gravity as a lob target, rim roller, and slasher across the lane just puts so much pressure on defenses. My only gripe with him really is his still weak creation out of double teams which obviously limits his ability to be a playmaker and which is why LeBron is the engine of the offense at the end of the day.

I get his +/- and the related variants of it weren’t that impressive in the regular season, but clearly the makeup of the team has something to do with that. LeBron’s been able to keep non-Davis lineups more than afloat without him because that’s just what LeBron does while Davis hasn’t fared as well in non-LeBron lineups without any playmakers to take advantage of his abilities, including non-playoff Rondo who was garbage in the regular season. But it would be foolish to think that if you took AD away from this team that there wouldn’t be a very significant drop off in success over the course of the whole season. Not only does Davis give LeBron the luxury to take breaks on offense here and there and let it work through AD, so he does have the energy to kill it with the bench units, but he also has significantly raised the defensive impact of guys like Rondo, Bradley, KCP, Green, and even LeBron to some degree. Per the scheme they can all play to their strengths and despite most of them lacking the ability to contain penetration they can focus on their strengths and be super aggressive with contesting shots and funneling their guys into the paint to meet Davis. Of course because AD shares a lot of court time with McGee and the backup is Dwight who has had a fantastic defensive season, the impact data won’t reflect Davis’ value accurately. But in these playoffs we’ve seen the plus/minus paint a much more positive picture of him that I think is much more accurate to how he’s played this season.

Your second paragraph pushes the discussion on AD's RS a little bit in the black or white category.
I think Davis was really good in the RS and I agree with your assessment, but I see him more like back end of the top 10ish for the RS.

I also agree with you that he's been great in the PO's, although I'm also a little more hesitant with his defense in a lot of the games.

So to get back to your question of what he would need to do to be higher in my book is easy: Be better in the RS and maaaybe be more consistent on D in the PO, although the first part for me is the bigger concern.

[MyUniBroDavis]

There's something to be said about LeBron being able to "rest" somewhat on Grant though, outside of crucial stretch when he would take the Murray assignment, while AD was largely tasked with Joker. It was definitely harder for him to roam on defense and help like LeBron was able to. And against Houston he was the only one the team trusted to guard Harden in single coverage. Every other Lakers defender was aided by the double team. Then as I mentioned against the Nuggets, Davis was able to switch onto Murray out of the PnR with Jokic which helped slow down that impossible to guard play. Davis is what makes so many of the Lakers' defensive schemes possible and makes the other guys' lives so much easier so they can save energy and not have to do more than they're comfortable with. In these playoffs, I'm definitely giving AD the not crazy significant but pretty clear edge on defense. Which is slightly offset by LeBron's offensive edge and why I have LBJ as the best performer in these playoffs and the leading POY candidate.

Agree on the scheme stuff but wasnt AD defending millsap after game 3? I couldnt catch whole games but at the same time they did kind of do that to allow bron to free roam and AD to be able to help more and close out hella.

The lakers defense in 3/5 games was succesful at defending this nuggets team, game 3 they went with a diff defensive strategy on pick and rolls and got burned, idk what happened for game 4 because incouldnt see that closely, but games 1,2,5 the nuggets were held to below league average offensively (game 1 garbage time changed it obv but they were clamped before that), despite murray going god mode (in g3 and g4 i remember he hit some dumb shots more than other games lol). I think howard was the best defender this series but AD probably helled make some of that scheme possible

I still have brons playoff run over AD but even with this game id have AD a good deal better than bron this series

[Doctor MJ]

Okay so after the conclusion of the West playoffs, I can give a ranking of how I see the guys from that side of the league at present:

West POY list:

I feel giannis should at least get a mention though lol

Not until he joins Golden State.

[MyUniBroDavis]

For the people a lot lower on Davis, my question is why? What would he need to be doing to end up higher on your list? In these playoffs he’s scoring 29 ppg on 66% TS. He’s passing the ball pretty well and not turning it over much. Defensively he’s been great even if his impact was a bit neutered the past 2 series with the Rockets playing 5 out and pulling him away from the basket as well as having to stick on Jokic a lot and not being able to help at the rim as much as he’s shown in the past. But his ability to switch onto Murray out of the PnR was crucial in the series and he did as good of a job on Joker as you can hope for. And his off ball scoring gravity as a lob target, rim roller, and slasher across the lane just puts so much pressure on defenses. My only gripe with him really is his still weak creation out of double teams which obviously limits his ability to be a playmaker and which is why LeBron is the engine of the offense at the end of the day.

I get his +/- and the related variants of it weren’t that impressive in the regular season, but clearly the makeup of the team has something to do with that. LeBron’s been able to keep non-Davis lineups more than afloat without him because that’s just what LeBron does while Davis hasn’t fared as well in non-LeBron lineups without any playmakers to take advantage of his abilities, including non-playoff Rondo who was garbage in the regular season. But it would be foolish to think that if you took AD away from this team that there wouldn’t be a very significant drop off in success over the course of the whole season. Not only does Davis give LeBron the luxury to take breaks on offense here and there and let it work through AD, so he does have the energy to kill it with the bench units, but he also has significantly raised the defensive impact of guys like Rondo, Bradley, KCP, Green, and even LeBron to some degree. Per the scheme they can all play to their strengths and despite most of them lacking the ability to contain penetration they can focus on their strengths and be super aggressive with contesting shots and funneling their guys into the paint to meet Davis. Of course because AD shares a lot of court time with McGee and the backup is Dwight who has had a fantastic defensive season, the impact data won’t reflect Davis’ value accurately. But in these playoffs we’ve seen the plus/minus paint a much more positive picture of him that I think is much more accurate to how he’s played this season.

Your second paragraph pushes the discussion on AD's RS a little bit in the black or white category.
I think Davis was really good in the RS and I agree with your assessment, but I see him more like back end of the top 10ish for the RS.

I also agree with you that he's been great in the PO's, although I'm also a little more hesitant with his defense in a lot of the games.

So to get back to your question of what he would need to do to be higher in my book is easy: Be better in the RS and maaaybe be more consistent on D in the PO, although the first part for me is the bigger concern.

I mean hes been DPOY tier in the playoffs at least series 1 and series 2, and series 3 its the toughest matchup in the league and his versatility was key in the lakers defensive scheme, and even his d on jokic was fine, jokic got the step on him a few times but he forced a few possessions awry and jokic wasnt able to go at him like he went at mcgee

Heavy agree on what yoyoboy said second paragraph, would also note that lakers run more zone without ad bron or mcgee i think, like that thing where they switch midway through, which isnt super sustainable but is good at confusing rhe d for a bif. Its why mcgee dwighr and as all have negatuve raw defensice impact numbers despite being the defense's driving force

[freethedevil]

Okay so after the conclusion of the West playoffs, I can give a ranking of how I see the guys from that side of the league at present:

West POY list:
.

I feel giannis should at least get a mention though lol

When did you become jr smith?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Okay so after the conclusion of the West playoffs, I can give a ranking of how I see the guys from that side of the league at present:

West POY list:
.

I feel giannis should at least get a mention though lol

When did you become jr smith?

After i moved back into my apartment

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly, given harden played the best of anyone not named murray vs the lakers i think he shoudl clearly be above kawhi. Harden has been much better over the course of the last two regular seasons, and his performance against the lakers is or eimpressive than anything kawhi managed this postseason. Don't really see much rationale in putting kawhi above him.

Also don't think you can really hold it against harden for pushing for a westbrook trade, when kawhi nasically forced the clippers to forfiet any shot at getting a rim prtoector or playmaker by makign them trade for pg.


I don't really see how kawhi can be ranked over harden using consistent rationale. Kawhi wasn't as good when it mattered, and he was arguably worse off the court.

I think you should think about how many leaps you're talking here.

Because Player A was better than all but Player B against an opponent he lost to, Player A should rank ahead of Player C who didn't play that opponent, and also Player A should still be ranked above Player B despite the fact that he actually was worse against their mutual opponent. That's pretty dang far from any kind of logical proof.

Re: More impressive than anything Kawhi managed. I mean, they lost in a gentleman's sweep. I really think people get way too impressed with big numbers in a losing effort. It's well and good to say "Hey, it's wrong to knock the guy because his team lost, he played great", but that's far different from saying "His team got destroyed, but while his opponent was coasting through the series, he put up good enough numbers that I'm going to move him ahead of someone he'd been behind all season and whose team looked more dangerous in the playoffs."

Re: wasn't as good when it mattered. I think it's important not to based too much of our year assessment based on how a guy did on the last game of the season. It counts to be sure, but there's a lot noise in that sample and in the case of Kawhi we already know that he's a guy who has thrived in big moments repeatedly, so any assessment along the lines of "Harden is better when it matters" in the "what we know about these players as a rule" just doesn't hold up.

I don't think you're crazy to rank Harden ahead of Kawhi at all though. I can see the argument, I just don't see the case for moving Harden above Kawhi based on the playoffs. If you had Harden ahead all year, makes sense that Kawhi didn't move passed him.

[eminence]

There's something to be said about LeBron being able to "rest" somewhat on Grant though, outside of crucial stretch when he would take the Murray assignment, while AD was largely tasked with Joker. It was definitely harder for him to roam on defense and help like LeBron was able to. And against Houston he was the only one the team trusted to guard Harden in single coverage. Every other Lakers defender was aided by the double team. Then as I mentioned against the Nuggets, Davis was able to switch onto Murray out of the PnR with Jokic which helped slow down that impossible to guard play. Davis is what makes so many of the Lakers' defensive schemes possible and makes the other guys' lives so much easier so they can save energy and not have to do more than they're comfortable with. In these playoffs, I'm definitely giving AD the not crazy significant but pretty clear edge on defense. Which is slightly offset by LeBron's offensive edge and why I have LBJ as the best performer in these playoffs and the leading POY candidate.

AD spent the majority of his time on Millsap.

[No-more-rings]

For the people a lot lower on Davis, my question is why? What would he need to be doing to end up higher on your list? In these playoffs he’s scoring 29 ppg on 66% TS. He’s passing the ball pretty well and not turning it over much. Defensively he’s been great even if his impact was a bit neutered the past 2 series with the Rockets playing 5 out and pulling him away from the basket as well as having to stick on Jokic a lot and not being able to help at the rim as much as he’s shown in the past. But his ability to switch onto Murray out of the PnR was crucial in the series and he did as good of a job on Joker as you can hope for. And his off ball scoring gravity as a lob target, rim roller, and slasher across the lane just puts so much pressure on defenses. My only gripe with him really is his still weak creation out of double teams which obviously limits his ability to be a playmaker and which is why LeBron is the engine of the offense at the end of the day.

I get his +/- and the related variants of it weren’t that impressive in the regular season, but clearly the makeup of the team has something to do with that. LeBron’s been able to keep non-Davis lineups more than afloat without him because that’s just what LeBron does while Davis hasn’t fared as well in non-LeBron lineups without any playmakers to take advantage of his abilities, including non-playoff Rondo who was garbage in the regular season. But it would be foolish to think that if you took AD away from this team that there wouldn’t be a very significant drop off in success over the course of the whole season. Not only does Davis give LeBron the luxury to take breaks on offense here and there and let it work through AD, so he does have the energy to kill it with the bench units, but he also has significantly raised the defensive impact of guys like Rondo, Bradley, KCP, Green, and even LeBron to some degree. Per the scheme they can all play to their strengths and despite most of them lacking the ability to contain penetration they can focus on their strengths and be super aggressive with contesting shots and funneling their guys into the paint to meet Davis. Of course because AD shares a lot of court time with McGee and the backup is Dwight who has had a fantastic defensive season, the impact data won’t reflect Davis’ value accurately. But in these playoffs we’ve seen the plus/minus paint a much more positive picture of him that I think is much more accurate to how he’s played this season.

Your second paragraph pushes the discussion on AD's RS a little bit in the black or white category.
I think Davis was really good in the RS and I agree with your assessment, but I see him more like back end of the top 10ish for the RS.

I also agree with you that he's been great in the PO's, although I'm also a little more hesitant with his defense in a lot of the games.

So to get back to your question of what he would need to do to be higher in my book is easy: Be better in the RS and maaaybe be more consistent on D in the PO, although the first part for me is the bigger concern.

I mean hes been DPOY tier in the playoffs at least series 1 and series 2, and series 3 its the toughest matchup in the league and his versatility was key in the lakers defensive scheme, and even his d on jokic was fine, jokic got the step on him a few times but he forced a few possessions awry and jokic wasnt able to go at him like he went at mcgee

Heavy agree on what yoyoboy said second paragraph, would also note that lakers run more zone without ad bron or mcgee i think, like that thing where they switch midway through, which isnt super sustainable but is good at confusing rhe d for a bif. Its why mcgee dwighr and as all have negatuve raw defensice impact numbers despite being the defense's driving force

Davis didn’t do much of anything as far as slowing Jokic down. Last night Jokic had foul trouble, and when he was out there Dwight defended him more than Davis. No one did that well defending him one on one, but Dwight did better keeping him out of position and off the boards. Dwight did better than Davis, but it was more of the doubles they were throwing at him and honestly he seemed kind of tired the last two games.

On a per minute basis Dwight was better than Davis on d in the series. Though 20 mpg vs 38 is a big difference.

[70sFan]

I agree, in deciding game Howard was better defensively than Davis.

[HeartBreakKid]

Anthony Davis barely affected Jokic in most of those games.

[eminence]

Yeah, bubble hasn't moved too much yet. Lillard kept his hopes for a spot alive. But Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Kawhi were my clear top 4 coming into the bubble and that has yet to change. If any of Lillard/CP3/Butler/Doncic/Tatum/Jokic/Gobert can take a series off them then they'll likely be in. If not I'm not sure who'll wind up #5. Maybe Davis can sneak in to give the Lakers two in the top 5.

Those were my brief thoughts going into the playoffs (with the top 4 in that order, and I know I had Jokic as 5th at the top of that next pile based off another post). Who from my second group has done enough to move up for discussion? Lillard - no, CP3 - no, Butler - still alive, but seeming unlikely as the cast takes on more and more responsibility (Bam has likely been their best guy in the playoffs), Doncic - impressive, but no, Tatum - actually still alive, but a lot of work left to do, Jokic - quite possibly has done enough, Gobert - no, AD - needs to finish the job.

Jokic v Kawhi/Harden/Giannis is the big interesting one to me right now. As of now I'm reluctant to move him over them. Despite his dominance in the Clippers series it's very arguable he was the 3rd best player in each of his other series (Mitchell/Murray and LBJ/AD).

Butler/Tatum - need to win to get consideration, Jimmy probably doesn't get it even then.

AD has a pretty serious swing between the Lakers winning and losing the title as well, if they win I could see as high as #2, if they lose I could see him outside of my top 5.

[Doctor MJ]

Davis didn’t do much of anything as far as slowing Jokic down. Last night Jokic had foul trouble, and when he was out there Dwight defended him more than Davis. No one did that well defending him one on one, but Dwight did better keeping him out of position and off the boards. Dwight did better than Davis, but it was more of the doubles they were throwing at him and honestly he seemed kind of tired the last two games.

On a per minute basis Dwight was better than Davis on d in the series. Though 20 mpg vs 38 is a big difference.

Agreed and this is where it's just so unfair that LeBron can get Howard to be a team player when no one else can. Not that I object to what LeBron's done here - I think it may end up being his most impressive accomplishment as "franchise player" - but the fact that the Lakers can simply bust out one of the most talented defensive big men of the 21st century in a playoff series when they didn't even use him the series before is quite the luxury.

Something else I'll note:

I remember reading or listening to something during post-March break that those close to the Nuggets said that Jokic was confident in how he would take down every other big in the league except AD, and he was in the process of figuring out AD.

Fast forward to this series, and we see Jokic beat AD in a variety of ways when they're actually matched up...but the Lakers have Dwight Freaking Howard and the ability to play Howard with AD. Jokic's plan basically worked, but the Lakers had another card to play.

[limbo]

The funniest part is Dwight wasn't suppose to even be here...The original plan was Boogie Cousins and McGee splitting time at Center... The basketball Gods have smitten down Boogie Cousins for one last time, and with AD's reluctance to play C, especially during the regular season, made the Lakers search for a plan B, which turned out to be Dwight.

TL;DR: In an alternate universe with the original script, Boogie Cousins is guarding Jokic in the WCF.

[therealbig3]

Wouldn't give LeBron all that much credit for Dwight buying in and being an impact player for them, I think that's more on Dwight. He had been bouncing around the league still trying to be what he was in Orlando, and was on his way out of the league in fact. I think he realized at that point that changing his approach and buying into a team concept and focusing on the things he was still good at was his last real shot at still being a valuable contributor on a team. And of all teams you better make that change for, the Lakers with LeBron/AD and championship aspirations are definitely one of them.

[Doctor MJ]

Wouldn't give LeBron all that much credit for Dwight buying in and being an impact player for them, I think that's more on Dwight. He had been bouncing around the league still trying to be what he was in Orlando, and was on his way out of the league in fact. I think he realized at that point that changing his approach and buying into a team concept and focusing on the things he was still good at was his last real shot at still being a valuable contributor on a team. And of all teams you better make that change for, the Lakers with LeBron/AD and championship aspirations are definitely one of them.

I think you have more faith in Dwight's ability to grow up right when he needs it than I do. I think he should have been looking at things like "this is my last chance" since he was in Atlanta. I don't think it's a coincidence that he bought in when joining the team of the most empowered superstar in the league who was also all-in on building a hard-working culture built around him.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Rondo woke up in the same context.

I'd say it's really the same type of thing we saw from Rodman on Jordan's team. Yes, Rodman was still a wild card, but looked at Jordan as his boss. I'm pretty dang sure that Howard & Rondo look at LeBron similarly. I mean consider the alternative: You think it's Vogel who has the magic spell? Pelinka? The Buss family? Nah.

I will say this though: Give an assist to Kobe's Laker success and, tragically, Kobe's death.

[TheGOATRises007]

Wouldn't give LeBron all that much credit for Dwight buying in and being an impact player for them, I think that's more on Dwight. He had been bouncing around the league still trying to be what he was in Orlando, and was on his way out of the league in fact. I think he realized at that point that changing his approach and buying into a team concept and focusing on the things he was still good at was his last real shot at still being a valuable contributor on a team. And of all teams you better make that change for, the Lakers with LeBron/AD and championship aspirations are definitely one of them.

I'd give Lebron all the credit.

I highly doubt Dwight would do this well on the Clippers for example.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Wouldn't give LeBron all that much credit for Dwight buying in and being an impact player for them, I think that's more on Dwight. He had been bouncing around the league still trying to be what he was in Orlando, and was on his way out of the league in fact. I think he realized at that point that changing his approach and buying into a team concept and focusing on the things he was still good at was his last real shot at still being a valuable contributor on a team. And of all teams you better make that change for, the Lakers with LeBron/AD and championship aspirations are definitely one of them.

I don't think it is fair to say LeBron doesn't get "All that much" credit for Dwight Howards turn around and buying in to a concept he should have 7 or 8 years ago, certainly should have by 2015.

While it is fair to say Dwight has been making attempts at finding a new organization and being a great fit, at the end of the day his ego and attitude always got the best of him. LeBron on the other hand has a history of getting veterans who have bounced around the league to find a comfort in a team atmosphere, notably J.R. Smith.

Ultimately it is LeBron James who has turned LA into a title contender. It is LeBron James who has changed the mood and attitude around LA and the Lakers. It is LeBron James who has made LA a title contender and it is LeBron James who brought AD to LA. No matter how you spin your idea of Dwight changing, LeBron is the event horizon.

[Dupp]

Wouldn't give LeBron all that much credit for Dwight buying in and being an impact player for them, I think that's more on Dwight. He had been bouncing around the league still trying to be what he was in Orlando, and was on his way out of the league in fact. I think he realized at that point that changing his approach and buying into a team concept and focusing on the things he was still good at was his last real shot at still being a valuable contributor on a team. And of all teams you better make that change for, the Lakers with LeBron/AD and championship aspirations are definitely one of them.

I think you have more faith in Dwight's ability to grow up right when he needs it than I do. I think he should have been looking at things like "this is my last chance" since he was in Atlanta. I don't think it's a coincidence that he bought in when joining the team of the most empowered superstar in the league who was also all-in on building a hard-working culture built around him.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Rondo woke up in the same context.

I'd say it's really the same type of thing we saw from Rodman on Jordan's team. Yes, Rodman was still a wild card, but looked at Jordan as his boss. I'm pretty dang sure that Howard & Rondo look at LeBron similarly. I mean consider the alternative: You think it's Vogel who has the magic spell? Pelinka? The Buss family? Nah.

I will say this though: Give an assist to Kobe's Laker success and, tragically, Kobe's death.

This is the kind of thing when evaluating players or leaders we really don’t know how big of an impact someone had.

Like really how much credit do we give to lebron? How much to the whole Lakers staff, AD, the team and of course Dwight himself? It all factors in im sure but how much credit do you give lebron? Maybe Dwight just legit grew up and thought I’ve been on trash teams nearly 10 years now this maybe my only shot to win a ring. I’m sure Vogel and bron had a chat with him but maybe that’s the same chat Lillard could have had with him if he joined Lillard on a legit contender.


At the same time the opposite is thrown around too. Like lebron made love worse. When in reality after the initial growing pains ( yes lebron deserves some blame here) the only decline in love was his play around the basket. That was almost certainly due to weight loss/injuries. He played there less of course because he was shooting a lot of threes but he was no welters near the force around the rim he once once.

If we want to be petty we could say kawhi made Paul George worse. In reality sometimes good players just get worse or don’t mesh and there’s no one else to blame. I’m sure bron would be getting killed if PG played this way next to him after how great he looked the next to Westbrook. Which is funny given all the criticism Westbrook gets.