2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Doctor MJ]

I don’t like to give MIP to young players in their first 3 seasons but there are a handful of players who made huge jumps in their 4th year, including Sabonis, Murray and Mitchell but I don't think it is fair to leave Bam out of it because of 1 season.

MIP: Duncan Robinson

Robinson is already 26.5 years old and at the age of 24 was not even in the league. He went from an end of bench player in 2019 to one of the most important players on a title team.

6MOY: Dennis Schroeder

The other contenders for me were Jordan Clarkson, Goran Dragic and Tyler Herro. I thought it was more impressive for Schroeder to co-exist with two other "PGs" in Paul and SGA.

COY: Nick Nurse

Spoelstra is the only coach I seriously considered for this award aside from Nurse. What Nurse did with a less talented roster in comparison to Spoelstra is just as impressive, if not a bit more. Nurse went zone against Boston and it worked wonders and Spoelstra integrated it with a better roster to better results, but the blue print was made by Nurse.

EOY: Rob Pelinka

I mean the guy traded some middling prospects for Anthony freaking Davis. I like what Riley did as well as Presti. Those 3 are the clear cut top 3 for me. I was never a fan of the roster constructed of the Clippers and the failure highlighted a weakness I personally thought talent would over come.

MIP is the most frustrating award for me because I'm never sure what to do with the young guys. Luka's improvement really was the story of the season so I could get behind a Luka candidacy, but he doesn't "feel" like an "MIP" because he was an actual MVP candidate.

I'll say that I had Robinson as my MIP pick in the RS, but he's regressed big time in the playoffs. For perspective here, I actually think in practice he was the team's MVP of the regular season. In the playoffs he's 5th or 6th. That's not entirely a surprise - we kind of expect guys in his role to have diminished value against a consistent opponent - and it's still a major leap from last year, but makes it harder to say "This is the guy you should pay attention to who has leapt forward this year."

6MOY Schroeder. I expect he'll be a candidate on everyone's mind.

COY Nurse. Yup I get it. Spoelstra's had a dream season in terms of player development though in addition to pulling off the #1 upset of the playoffs and then winning the next round by learning from that team's previous opponent.

EOY Pelinka. Traded for AD. I disagree with this. At the root, the answer is simple: Pelinka and the Lakers FO have just been obviously incompetent. They don't have functional systems like other teams do. "Family run business" sounds great and all, but the Lakers are where they are right now because LeBron simply decided he wanted to attach himself to the Lakers brand (which Pelinka did not in any way make). They have AD because AD told his franchise he wanted to come here to play with LeBron.

[Jordan Syndrome]

MIP is the most frustrating award for me because I'm never sure what to do with the young guys. Luka's improvement really was the story of the season so I could get behind a Luka candidacy, but he doesn't "feel" like an "MIP" because he was an actual MVP candidate.

I'll say that I had Robinson as my MIP pick in the RS, but he's regressed big time in the playoffs. For perspective here, I actually think in practice he was the team's MVP of the regular season. In the playoffs he's 5th or 6th. That's not entirely a surprise - we kind of expect guys in his role to have diminished value against a consistent opponent - and it's still a major leap from last year, but makes it harder to say "This is the guy you should pay attention to who has leapt forward this year."

You are right and I was blown away by Robinsons regular season. I had Robinson as the teams regular season MVP and Bam has been the teams post-season MVP. Bam feasted on a Celtics team who lacked anyone who can challenge him. I want to see Bam against the Lakers defense before I make concrete decisions on the Heat's "Season MVP".

If we are looking at MIP through a lense of "How has this players game change?" then I believe the award becomes interesting.

6MOY Schroeder. I expect he'll be a candidate on everyone's mind.

Aside from Schroeders obvious improvement, this really highlights the difference in players Chris Paul is from Russell Westbrook. There is no way Schroeder has a season like this playing next to Westbrook.

COY Nurse. Yup I get it. Spoelstra's had a dream season in terms of player development though in addition to pulling off the #1 upset of the playoffs and then winning the next round by learning from that team's previous opponent.

Nurse has done a great job developing as well. Terrence Davis was a rookie this season and a big time role player for the Raptors. Anunoby continues to develop into a special player and while Nunn and Herro are great, Herro is one of the most overlooked prospects in NBA History. If you go back and read his scouting report he is the "most complete" player in the draft. It's remarkable to think how many teams missed on the kid but I give Spo and the Heat credit for being the team to take him and groom him within the system.

EOY Pelinka. Traded for AD. I disagree with this. At the root, the answer is simple: Pelinka and the Lakers FO have just been obviously incompetent. They don't have functional systems like other teams do. "Family run business" sounds great and all, but the Lakers are where they are right now because LeBron simply decided he wanted to attach himself to the Lakers brand (which Pelinka did not in any way make). They have AD because AD told his franchise he wanted to come here to play with LeBron.

I get all of this, I should have said EOY: LeBron James.

[freethedevil]

So looking at some of the non-glamour awards, I find myself thinking like this:

MIP: Bam Adebayo
6MOY: Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro, depending on philosophy as it relates to Dragic
COY: Erik Spoelstra
EOY: Pat Riley

Interesting pattern. Thoughts?

Also, finding myself all mixed up relating to DPOY, wonder what y'all are thinking.

gimme nick nurse for coy. despite the l i think he outcoached stevens a little and his creativity and versatily is utterly unrivalled in today's league.

Frankly, its unofrtunate the raps ran into the celtics because they were really the worst possible machup along with the clippers. The raptors biggest weakness is a lack of interior scoring and they played a team whose biggest weakness was...

a lack of rim protection.

[E-Balla]

I don’t like to give MIP to young players in their first 3 seasons but there are a handful of players who made huge jumps in their 4th year, including Sabonis, Murray and Mitchell but I don't think it is fair to leave Bam out of it because of 1 season.

MIP: Duncan Robinson

Robinson is already 26.5 years old and at the age of 24 was not even in the league. He went from an end of bench player in 2019 to one of the most important players on a title team.

6MOY: Dennis Schroeder

The other contenders for me were Jordan Clarkson, Goran Dragic and Tyler Herro. I thought it was more impressive for Schroeder to co-exist with two other "PGs" in Paul and SGA.

COY: Nick Nurse

Spoelstra is the only coach I seriously considered for this award aside from Nurse. What Nurse did with a less talented roster in comparison to Spoelstra is just as impressive, if not a bit more. Nurse went zone against Boston and it worked wonders and Spoelstra integrated it with a better roster to better results, but the blue print was made by Nurse.

EOY: Rob Pelinka

I mean the guy traded some middling prospects for Anthony freaking Davis. I like what Riley did as well as Presti. Those 3 are the clear cut top 3 for me. I was never a fan of the roster constructed of the Clippers and the failure highlighted a weakness I personally thought talent would over come.

MIP is the most frustrating award for me because I'm never sure what to do with the young guys. Luka's improvement really was the story of the season so I could get behind a Luka candidacy, but he doesn't "feel" like an "MIP" because he was an actual MVP candidate.

I'll say that I had Robinson as my MIP pick in the RS, but he's regressed big time in the playoffs. For perspective here, I actually think in practice he was the team's MVP of the regular season. In the playoffs he's 5th or 6th. That's not entirely a surprise - we kind of expect guys in his role to have diminished value against a consistent opponent - and it's still a major leap from last year, but makes it harder to say "This is the guy you should pay attention to who has leapt forward this year."

6MOY Schroeder. I expect he'll be a candidate on everyone's mind.

COY Nurse. Yup I get it. Spoelstra's had a dream season in terms of player development though in addition to pulling off the #1 upset of the playoffs and then winning the next round by learning from that team's previous opponent.

EOY Pelinka. Traded for AD. I disagree with this. At the root, the answer is simple: Pelinka and the Lakers FO have just been obviously incompetent. They don't have functional systems like other teams do. "Family run business" sounds great and all, but the Lakers are where they are right now because LeBron simply decided he wanted to attach himself to the Lakers brand (which Pelinka did not in any way make). They have AD because AD told his franchise he wanted to come here to play with LeBron.

With Duncan sure he's not playing as well in the playoffs but he's still scoring in double digits on 63 TS%. It's easy to look at him not being as important to their success as in the regular season but his play is still so vastly superior to last year. Miami has also gone from being a +2.6 regular season team to a +11.1 team this postseason so far. There's kind of a difference from being the most impactful player on a +2.6 team vs a +11 team.

[HeartBreakKid]

Why is Nick Nurse a favorite over Eric Spolstra? Or even Rick Carslisle for that matter (how the heck are people not even considering him? No one thought the Mavericks would be the best offense in the league, and most people couldn't name the players on their roster before this season). And no, it's not just because of Luka, they're an incredible offense even when he is sitting still.

I'm actually not sure what the big deal is about the Raptors winning 50 games? They have done that for years...they never needed Kawhi Leonard to do that - not that he even contributed that much to the RS last year.

I guess they went deep in the second round? But Boston wasn't at full strength, and the games Toronto won were by the skin of their teeth. They seemed like a second round team to me, and that's basically where they ended up.

What were people exactly expecting this year - the Raptors to go .500?

[Doctor MJ]

Why is Nick Nurse a favorite over Eric Spolstra? Or even Rick Carslisle for that matter (how the heck are people not even considering him? No one thought the Mavericks would be the best offense in the league, and most people couldn't name the players on their roster before this season). And no, it's not just because of Luka, they're an incredible offense even when he is sitting still.

I'm actually not sure what the big deal is about the Raptors winning 50 games? They have done that for years...they never needed Kawhi Leonard to do that - not that he even contributed that much to the RS last year.

I guess they went deep in the second round? But Boston wasn't at full strength, and the games Toronto won were by the skin of their teeth. They seemed like a second round team to me, and that's basically where they ended up.

What were people exactly expecting this year - the Raptors to go .500?

Good points.

I think that Nurse has gotten a lot of buzz as the best coach in the league after taking the league by storm last year, so on that alone, if he does more good things things year.

You add in that the team did better in the regular season this year and with the fact of him not winning COY last year, he simply had to win the NBA's COY this year as a make-up.

Then you look at his performance in the playoffs and it's awful hard to actually knock him. Yes his team got "upset", but the smart money seemed to be on Boston before the series. Boston was considered the more talented team.

For me, Spo did enough to surpass him because a) I think he showed some top tier tactics, b) the Heat's player development this year was insane, and c) he's the coach who pulled off the big upset. In general when we evaluate coaches we don't simply ask "Still think Pop's the best?", we ask what can we point to about this particular year that is going to be a story worth telling in the years to come. Spo won that in a landslide.

But as I say all of that, I think Carlisle is absolutely worth bringing up. Unexpectedly the greatest offensive team in history playing shockingly well when Luka isn't in the game? Doing that while already being established as a successful NBA coach with great Xs and Os? Yeah, that's a COY candidate.

[dreamshake]

Vogel deserves a mention for COY. Yes, he had LBJ & AD, but if we forget hindsight - this Lakers team had a lot of doubts. The roster construction seemed questionable at best. The espn preseason "expert" predictions had them as a 5-seed and 4th most likely to win the title. Also had them pegged as potential "team turmoil".

He got everyone to buy into a defensive identity and give consistent effort on that end - Bron included. It feels like he's getting the best out of players that were big question marks before the season - Dwight most notably, but also guys like Bradley & KCP. He's gotten Kuzma invested as an off-ball roleplayer rather than concerned about touches.

But beyond the more nebulous "identity" stuff, I've been impressed for the most part with his schemes and adjustments in the playoffs. Things like altering his starting lineup in the Houston series after a win rather than waiting for a loss. Going into the playoffs, defending dynamic guards was thought to be a potential weakness - but they handled Lillard, Harden, and Murray pretty impressively. He did a great job recognizing matching Dwight's minutes to Jokic's would limit his effectiveness and get him in foul trouble. Looking forward to see how they approach Miami.

COY often seems to be about who achieves the most with what we think of as a less-talented roster. But there's something to be said for coming into a high-pressure/high-expectations situation and not screwing it up (so far). We saw no scandals, no subtweeting, no questionable coach collisions, etc. On a team with LeBron magnified by the Laker franchise spotlight, that's notable.

[PaulieWal]

Why is Nick Nurse a favorite over Eric Spolstra? Or even Rick Carslisle for that matter (how the heck are people not even considering him? No one thought the Mavericks would be the best offense in the league, and most people couldn't name the players on their roster before this season). And no, it's not just because of Luka, they're an incredible offense even when he is sitting still.

I'm actually not sure what the big deal is about the Raptors winning 50 games? They have done that for years...they never needed Kawhi Leonard to do that - not that he even contributed that much to the RS last year.

I guess they went deep in the second round? But Boston wasn't at full strength, and the games Toronto won were by the skin of their teeth. They seemed like a second round team to me, and that's basically where they ended up.

What were people exactly expecting this year - the Raptors to go .500?

The Vegas O/U for the Raptors was 46.5 and they finished the season on pace to win 60 games (53-19 record in the condensed season). Many analysts had them as a bottom 4 seed in the East so them being a 2nd seed is definitely them beating the general public's expectations.

Maybe you personally had them as good, but them being this good was definitely a surprise. And to say that Boston wasn't at full strength with Hayward out, Siakim was basically playing like a horrible role player, I think the Raptors taking Boston to 7 is a huge testament to Nurse's coaching.

In terms of having the team ready after Leonard's exist, the coach gets a huge boost and he's proven to be one of the best at in-game adjustments. And this might be just me personally, but I am sold on the hype and think he's a top 2 coach in the league next to Spo. Carlisle and Pop round out my top 4 if I really had to make a list.

[HeartBreakKid]

The Vegas O/U for the Raptors was 46.5 and they finished the season on pace to win 60 games (53-19 record in the condensed season). Many analysts had them as a bottom 4 seed in the East so them being a 2nd seed is definitely them beating the general public's expectations.

The general populace has always had problems judging the Raptors and the general populace doesn't think critically or have long memories. Two seasons ago may as well be two decades ago.

How is the 2020 Raptors any less talented than the 2018 Raptors who won 59 games? They're legitimately better. Their younger players are more experienced (FVV, Siakham, OG who I think wasn't even on the team yet), they had Marc Gasol (who fell off this year but still coming in was thought to be a positive), they ditched DeMar DeRozan who is a negative player. This is not even hindsight, why would anyone think rookie FVV is worse than 2020 FVV or rookie Siakam is better than third or fourth year Siakam after a career year? All of the players that were lost in 2018 were thought to be bad players, and all the players the Raptors gained were thought to be good ones.

There is no logical basis for this assumption that people made for Toronto, just people were lazy and saw "team loses superstar they're going to be doodoo!" The idea that they would win less than 50 games is just baffling to me, its a shame I was not aware of those odds because that is honestly just crazy.

So can anyone actually break down if the 2020 Raptors having low expectations was rational? It doesn't seem so to me. It may have been a common opinion, but people thinking COVID is a conspiracy theory is also a common opinion.

Maybe you personally had them as good, but them being this good was definitely a surprise. And to say that Boston wasn't at full strength with Hayward out, Siakim was basically playing like a horrible role player, I think the Raptors taking Boston to 7 is a huge testament to Nurse's coaching.

It shouldn't have been a surprise. If someone can explain to me why it should have been that would be great.

Why would Nick Nurse playing Siakam who was playing horribly be a good thing? The Raptors would have actually done better if Siakam had played less. Also, Siakam had been playing poorly way before the Boston series. He has been scoring like Andrew Wiggins during the regular season - it's not the same to compare him to Gordon Hayward, who was pretty much the second best player on the Celtics.

[KTM_2813]

Vogel deserves a mention for COY. Yes, he had LBJ & AD, but if we forget hindsight - this Lakers team had a lot of doubts. The roster construction seemed questionable at best. The espn preseason "expert" predictions had them as a 5-seed and 4th most likely to win the title. Also had them pegged as potential "team turmoil".

I'm not against the idea of Vogel being COY, but I'm not personally a fan of factoring preseason expectations into the voting criteria. Firstly, because preseason expectations (mine included) are often inaccurate. Secondly, because it seems a bit egotistical. In essence, if someone in the media made a preseason prediction that the Lakers would suck, and then voted Vogel for COY because "You proved me wrong, Frank!", then that person is making the award about themselves as opposed to Vogel. And if we, as fans, give credence to that, then we're kind of part of the problem, IMO. Just my two cents, as always.

[Dupp]

I’m also not sure why raptors were rated so low coming into the season given their many years in a row of winning lots of games. COY never really goes to someone continuing consistent high level performance and results.


Guess most didn’t really see it that way coming into the season though.

[No-more-rings]

So, am I in the minority or perhaps even the only one that doesn't really see the argument for Jokic over Harden? Because it seems like Jokic is going to be in most people's top 3 or 4. Jokic went one round further, but Harden performed clearly better against the same opponent and both lost. I don't know, i just hope the voting for top 5 doesn't come down to almost strictly about how far these guys went. Despite a finals appearance and likely championship i don't see it as a given that Davis is top 2 either.

Harden was clearly better than Jokic in the regular season, not close there and his offense was easily better in the playoffs. ON top of that I'm not sure Jokic has any edge on defense. He seems rather inconsistent there.

Does someone want to make an argument for Jokic over Harden that isn't just based on their hate/dislike for the guy?

[Doctor MJ]

So, am I in the minority or perhaps even the only one that doesn't really see the argument for Jokic over Harden? Because it seems like Jokic is going to be in most people's top 3 or 4. Jokic went one round further, but Harden performed clearly better against the same opponent and both lost. I don't know, i just hope the voting for top 5 doesn't come down to almost strictly about how far these guys went. Despite a finals appearance and likely championship i don't see it as a given that Davis is top 2 either.

Harden was clearly better than Jokic in the regular season, not close there and his offense was easily better in the playoffs. ON top of that I'm not sure Jokic has any edge on defense. He seems rather inconsistent there.

Does someone want to make an argument for Jokic over Harden that isn't just based on their hate/dislike for the guy?

Remember that the Lakers are all front court. Star guards should be putting up better numbers than star big men against them, and this is why I've mentioned the possibility of a Dragic or Herro Finals MVP. I'm picking the Lakers in the finals, but if the Heat win, I think it's really unlikely that Butler & Adebayo out play LeBron & Davis, but rather that the Heat guards outplay the Laker guards.

This is an aspect of "styles make fights". If you're not talking about guys who play the same role, that comparing series stats often doesn't make a lot of sense.

Here's the other thing I'll say:

Jokic has empowered the players around him with his style of play, where Harden has relegated his. Watch Jokic's teammates with their active cutting and confident decision making, that's happening because that's how you get used to playing with a pivot passer.

I'm not saying Harden can't be an MVP worthy player because I think he is, but his Rockets are a spent force now because of decisions he's made whereas the Nuggets keep finding new guys to step up because Jokic. That stuff matters to me.

[No-more-rings]

So, am I in the minority or perhaps even the only one that doesn't really see the argument for Jokic over Harden? Because it seems like Jokic is going to be in most people's top 3 or 4. Jokic went one round further, but Harden performed clearly better against the same opponent and both lost. I don't know, i just hope the voting for top 5 doesn't come down to almost strictly about how far these guys went. Despite a finals appearance and likely championship i don't see it as a given that Davis is top 2 either.

Harden was clearly better than Jokic in the regular season, not close there and his offense was easily better in the playoffs. ON top of that I'm not sure Jokic has any edge on defense. He seems rather inconsistent there.

Does someone want to make an argument for Jokic over Harden that isn't just based on their hate/dislike for the guy?

Remember that the Lakers are all front court. Star guards should be putting up better numbers than star big men against them, and this is why I've mentioned the possibility of a Dragic or Herro Finals MVP. I'm picking the Lakers in the finals, but if the Heat win, I think it's really unlikely that Butler & Adebayo out play LeBron & Davis, but rather that the Heat guards outplay the Laker guards.

This is an aspect of "styles make fights". If you're not talking about guys who play the same role, that comparing series stats often doesn't make a lot of sense.

Here's the other thing I'll say:

Jokic has empowered the players around him with his style of play, where Harden has relegated his. Watch Jokic's teammates with their active cutting and confident decision making, that's happening because that's how you get used to playing with a pivot passer.

I'm not saying Harden can't be an MVP worthy player because I think he is, but his Rockets are a spent force now because of decisions he's made whereas the Nuggets keep finding new guys to step up because Jokic. That stuff matters to me.

That's an interesting way to look at things though it's still theoretical rather than actual on court production and impact. If the thing about him wanting Chris Paul gone is part of what you mean by the decisions he's made, then that's not something I'm going to beat a dead horse on especially considering the amount of speculation behind it.

[Doctor MJ]

That's an interesting way to look at things though it's still theoretical rather than actual on court production and impact. If the thing about him wanting Chris Paul gone is part of what you mean by the decisions he's made, then that's not something I'm going to beat a dead horse on especially considering the amount of speculation behind it.

Excellent observation. The more you think about the criteria I've specified here, or really any criteria, the more it becomes clear that there are edge cases where we'll disagree on whether they should be included or not. That's perfectly fine by me.

What I'd say though is that when a player shapes his own context, if that shaping a) helps superficial impact but b) hurts the team, it's problematic to look only at impact because it incentivizes anti-team behavior.

While I understand that our little project is not influence actual NBA play, I want to strive for a system that is in alignment with the overarching incentive structure.

Last note: A funny thing is that there's a great example of anti-team behavior created by poorly crafted incentives designed to identify maximum impact individuals. It was the system that Steve Ballmer put in place at Microsoft.

https://slate.com/technology/2013/08/stack-ranking-steve-ballmer-s-employee-evaluation-system-and-microsoft-s-decline.html

Funny that he's now working within our sphere of basketball. It's going to be interesting to see what kind of an organization the Clippers end up turning into now they are finally moving on from the last vestige of the previous era.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Why did the ot board get blocked again lol

[PaulieWal]

Why did the ot board get blocked again lol

Is it really that difficult to understand? NO POLITICS. You want to discuss politics, go to the CA board.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Why did the ot board get blocked again lol

Is it really that difficult to understand? NO POLITICS. You want to discuss politics, go to the CA board.

Then just delete posts relating to politics than locking it down altogether lol, or have a seperate off topic plitics forum since maybe people wanna talk to people about it with people on the pc board

[PaulieWal]

Why did the ot board get blocked again lol

Is it really that difficult to understand? NO POLITICS. You want to discuss politics, go to the CA board.

Then just delete posts relating to politics than locking it down altogether lol, or have a seperate off topic plitics forum since maybe people wanna talk to people about it with people on the pc board

We don't need you backseat modding here - if you have a problem with the forum rules, feel free to PM Howard Mass or another site admin. However, within our limited scope here, the PC board mod team is very firm on no politics on this board whatsoever.

Please leave this alone since you are now in the middle of derailing this thread, a reply to this with more backseat modding will earn you an official warning.

[freethedevil]

Vogel deserves a mention for COY. Yes, he had LBJ & AD, but if we forget hindsight - this Lakers team had a lot of doubts. The roster construction seemed questionable at best. The espn preseason "expert" predictions had them as a 5-seed and 4th most likely to win the title. Also had them pegged as potential "team turmoil".

He got everyone to buy into a defensive identity and give consistent effort on that end - Bron included. It feels like he's getting the best out of players that were big question marks before the season - Dwight most notably, but also guys like Bradley & KCP. He's gotten Kuzma invested as an off-ball roleplayer rather than concerned about touches.

But beyond the more nebulous "identity" stuff, I've been impressed for the most part with his schemes and adjustments in the playoffs. Things like altering his starting lineup in the Houston series after a win rather than waiting for a loss. Going into the playoffs, defending dynamic guards was thought to be a potential weakness - but they handled Lillard, Harden, and Murray pretty impressively. He did a great job recognizing matching Dwight's minutes to Jokic's would limit his effectiveness and get him in foul trouble. Looking forward to see how they approach Miami.

COY often seems to be about who achieves the most with what we think of as a less-talented roster. But there's something to be said for coming into a high-pressure/high-expectations situation and not screwing it up (so far). We saw no scandals, no subtweeting, no questionable coach collisions, etc. On a team with LeBron magnified by the Laker franchise spotlight, that's notable.

Malone was better than vogel in the wcf, so no.