ImageImageImageImageImage

2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome)

Moderators: Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36, j4remi, NoLayupRule, HerSports85, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23

Who are you voting for?

Donald Trump
29
28%
Joe Biden
63
60%
Howie Hawkins
4
4%
Jo Jorgensen
3
3%
Kanye West
6
6%
 
Total votes: 105

Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1921 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 5:59 am

Zeitgeister wrote:Antifa is the canary in the coal mine just as they were in Italy, just as they were in Germany. Now does this mean that I think Trump is going to commit another Holocaust? I don't believe so, but you don't need to commit a Holocaust to be a fascist, you don't even need to be in power to be a fascist because fascism is an idealogy. Further, I understand that Trump is a pathological liar but you can't continue to suggest that you won't peacefully re-sign from office if you lose the election and not face consequences. Antifa is clearly the group Trump hates more than any other, and while I don't think they've operated without any faults, they have by and large been on the right side of history and correctly saw Trump for the threat he was years ago.

Trump's administration also posted this on an official Trump facebook page:

Image

That symbol was used for political dissidents or antifa, in Nazi Concentration Camps, someone in his administration knew exactly what they were doing, I'm sure Stephen Miller was involved.



You provided some good context, but to fully contextualize what you're talking about requires acknowledging that there is absolutely no centralized organization called Antifa, either by name or in function. There are and have usually always been people who self-identify as Anti-Fascists which is the root of the word.

My take on Antifa is there may have been at one point a cell or two of mischievous anarchists that did meet and organize actions that desecrated public facilities, but these are generally loose affiliations of people who drift in and out of each other's lives and have maybe brief periods of collective cohesion. But there never was a hierchical organization called Antifa, even more so because the kinds of people we're talking about are generally resistant to institutionalizing themselves in any way.

My primary speculation is there may have been infiltrators of anti-fascist groups at some point that could have been funded by any number of sources, whether they are right wingers or foreign operatives. The FBI could also infiltrate as well.

Since I've grown to understand foreign influence on our political system, I've learned how patient any of these sovereign operations are whether they are Russians, Israelis or Chinese, all of whom have A-Level hackers and play the long game. And what I've observed is the Antifa legend has been carefully tended and watered since Trump got elected until it could grow in mythological force, now very easy to do with so many Q idiots online.

But the bottom line is ANTIFA as a domestic terrorist threat is complete horsechit. Anybody who believes that is a threat on par with White Nationalists is demented. And that's why Trump pushes it, because he knows it is BS and it riles up his base.

Finally, white nationalists have already been busted for arson and admitting they were trying to get it pinned on Antifa. If anybody has funded or forwarded the impression of Antifa as a violent threat it is right wingers or independent trouble makers who set fires. There have always been and will always be random people or even small groups of people who vandalize during large surges in public protest. Some of them may be ideologically driven people too, but they are not taking orders from a centralized command called Antifa
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1922 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:03 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:And as far as Trump fleeing the country, I've seen this kind of speculation, but I see no reason for Putin to take him and China sure AF won't. NK will laugh at him. The Saudis, the UAE, Israel? Seems looney to touch Trump with a ten foot pole. So where exactly could the orange blob and his crime family bounce to realistically?


Putin will poison Trump once he's done with him. :lol:


Works for me
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1923 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:07 am

My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1924 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:13 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter


registering a domain is easy

what do you really know about that website and who runs it?

I'd be wary of posting links as proof of anything at all considering the Russians have been busted manufacturing this kind of stuff on the regular
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1925 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:24 am

Katie Porter teaching class

HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1926 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:27 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter


registering a domain is easy

what do you really know about that website and who runs it?

I'd be wary of posting links as proof of anything at all considering the Russians have been busted manufacturing this kind of stuff on the regular


It's not just a website. It has information on it. If you want, you can check it out since you're the one who thinks they're involved in alleged nefarious acts. Moreover, you have no evidence of its illegitimacy.

I don't have to prove a negative. It is what it is. If you're skeptical, that's on you to establish.
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1927 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:51 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter


registering a domain is easy

what do you really know about that website and who runs it?

I'd be wary of posting links as proof of anything at all considering the Russians have been busted manufacturing this kind of stuff on the regular


It's not just a website. It has information on it. If you want, you can check it out since you're the one who thinks they're involved in alleged nefarious acts. Moreover, you have no evidence of its illegitimacy.

I don't have to prove a negative. It is what it is. If you're skeptical, that's on you to establish.


Huh?

Whatever dude
User avatar
j4remi
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 38,263
And1: 20,238
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1928 » by j4remi » Thu Oct 1, 2020 1:58 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter


registering a domain is easy

what do you really know about that website and who runs it?

I'd be wary of posting links as proof of anything at all considering the Russians have been busted manufacturing this kind of stuff on the regular


It's definitely difficult since Antifa groups are best off keeping a decent measure of anonymity; but I can give them this much...A decent amount of NYC activists, writers, groups and even a state Rep follow that account. Not the types to just randomly follow a Russian troll account; the types who would be able to catch BS from a non-local that's had the account for 6 years and 20,000 tweets. At a minimum, I'd be pretty confident calling that a Northeast based account who is legitimately familiar with the NYC leftist movement.
PG- Haliburton | Schroder | Sasser
SG- Grimes | Dick | Bogdanovic
SF- Bridges | George
PF- Hunter |Strus| Fleming
C- Turner | Powell | Wiseman
Polk377
General Manager
Posts: 9,517
And1: 5,915
Joined: Apr 19, 2002
Location: Medford, NY
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1929 » by Polk377 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:20 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter


You mean ANTIFA, the militant brotherhood who is going around causing chaos, suffocating differing opinions, trying to destabilize the government and economy to push their own ideologies of utopia? There is a a word to describe their actions, Fascist. You can call your group anything you want but you can't hide your actions.

The only "vehicular attacks" that are happening are when these thugs are blocking off streets, trying to assault people that just want to get to their destination and are trying to escape these mobs.
User avatar
DOT
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,509
And1: 61,331
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1930 » by DOT » Thu Oct 1, 2020 3:32 pm

Polk377 wrote:
You mean ANTIFA, the militant brotherhood who is going around causing chaos, suffocating differing opinions, trying to destabilize the government and economy to push their own ideologies of utopia? There is a a word to describe their actions, Fascist. You can call your group anything you want but you can't hide your actions.

The only "vehicular attacks" that are happening are when these thugs are blocking off streets, trying to assault people that just want to get to their destination and are trying to escape these mobs.

How many people have been killed by Antifa again?

According to the FBI, they're not an organization, and pose far less of a threat than right wing extremists

You know, like the people you're defending for running over people.
BaF Lakers:

Nikola Topic/Kasparas Jakucionis
VJ Edgecombe/Jrue Holiday
Shaedon Sharpe/Cedric Coward
Kyle Filipowski/Collin Murray-Boyles
Alex Sarr/Clint Capela

Bench: Malcolm Brogdon/Hansen Yang/Rocco Zikarsky/RJ Luis Jr.
Polk377
General Manager
Posts: 9,517
And1: 5,915
Joined: Apr 19, 2002
Location: Medford, NY
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1931 » by Polk377 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:01 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Polk377 wrote:
You mean ANTIFA, the militant brotherhood who is going around causing chaos, suffocating differing opinions, trying to destabilize the government and economy to push their own ideologies of utopia? There is a a word to describe their actions, Fascist. You can call your group anything you want but you can't hide your actions.

The only "vehicular attacks" that are happening are when these thugs are blocking off streets, trying to assault people that just want to get to their destination and are trying to escape these mobs.

How many people have been killed by Antifa again?

According to the FBI, they're not an organization, and pose far less of a threat than right wing extremists

You know, like the people you're defending for running over people.


Unfortunately the FBI have ZERO credibility after Comey's witch hunt proved to be a monumental failure. Just because your leftist media refuses to report on murders from their mob doesn't mean they don't exist. That is your problem, you paint everyone who doesn't believe in your radical left ideology as right wing extremists. Stay out of the middle of the street during rush hour and you won't get hit by a car. common sense.
User avatar
DOT
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,509
And1: 61,331
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1932 » by DOT » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:14 pm

Polk377 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Polk377 wrote:
You mean ANTIFA, the militant brotherhood who is going around causing chaos, suffocating differing opinions, trying to destabilize the government and economy to push their own ideologies of utopia? There is a a word to describe their actions, Fascist. You can call your group anything you want but you can't hide your actions.

The only "vehicular attacks" that are happening are when these thugs are blocking off streets, trying to assault people that just want to get to their destination and are trying to escape these mobs.

How many people have been killed by Antifa again?

According to the FBI, they're not an organization, and pose far less of a threat than right wing extremists

You know, like the people you're defending for running over people.


Unfortunately the FBI have ZERO credibility after Comey's witch hunt proved to be a monumental failure. Just because your leftist media refuses to report on murders from their mob doesn't mean they don't exist. That is your problem, you paint everyone who doesn't believe in your radical left ideology as right wing extremists. Stay out of the middle of the street during rush hour and you won't get hit by a car. common sense.

Yes, the noted left wing organization FBI

What a f*cking joke lol.
BaF Lakers:

Nikola Topic/Kasparas Jakucionis
VJ Edgecombe/Jrue Holiday
Shaedon Sharpe/Cedric Coward
Kyle Filipowski/Collin Murray-Boyles
Alex Sarr/Clint Capela

Bench: Malcolm Brogdon/Hansen Yang/Rocco Zikarsky/RJ Luis Jr.
Polk377
General Manager
Posts: 9,517
And1: 5,915
Joined: Apr 19, 2002
Location: Medford, NY
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1933 » by Polk377 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:23 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Polk377 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How many people have been killed by Antifa again?

According to the FBI, they're not an organization, and pose far less of a threat than right wing extremists

You know, like the people you're defending for running over people.


Unfortunately the FBI have ZERO credibility after Comey's witch hunt proved to be a monumental failure. Just because your leftist media refuses to report on murders from their mob doesn't mean they don't exist. That is your problem, you paint everyone who doesn't believe in your radical left ideology as right wing extremists. Stay out of the middle of the street during rush hour and you won't get hit by a car. common sense.

Yes, the noted left wing organization FBI

What a f*cking joke lol.


I never said they were a left wing organization, I said they lost credibility as a viable source.
User avatar
DOT
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,509
And1: 61,331
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1934 » by DOT » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:32 pm

Polk377 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Polk377 wrote:
Unfortunately the FBI have ZERO credibility after Comey's witch hunt proved to be a monumental failure. Just because your leftist media refuses to report on murders from their mob doesn't mean they don't exist. That is your problem, you paint everyone who doesn't believe in your radical left ideology as right wing extremists. Stay out of the middle of the street during rush hour and you won't get hit by a car. common sense.

Yes, the noted left wing organization FBI

What a f*cking joke lol.


I never said they were a left wing organization, I said they lost credibility as a viable source.

Why, cause they launched an investigation which led to multiple members of Trump's team (including two campaign managers) to be arrested, the president being impeached and only saving his job by obstructing justice?

Bootlickers gonna bootlick, I guess. The problem is, people who think they're too smart for propaganda to work on them are exactly the type it works the best on. Dunning-Kruger effect and all.
BaF Lakers:

Nikola Topic/Kasparas Jakucionis
VJ Edgecombe/Jrue Holiday
Shaedon Sharpe/Cedric Coward
Kyle Filipowski/Collin Murray-Boyles
Alex Sarr/Clint Capela

Bench: Malcolm Brogdon/Hansen Yang/Rocco Zikarsky/RJ Luis Jr.
User avatar
robillionaire
RealGM
Posts: 40,067
And1: 57,574
Joined: Jul 12, 2015
Location: Asheville
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1935 » by robillionaire » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:39 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:My understanding of ANTIFA is that it is an anti-fascist organization of people committed to stepping up and putting their bodies on the line to protect potential victims of alt-right/white supremacist organizations, e.g. Proud Boys.

I haven't seen any proof that this "organization" of Americans should be viewed as a threat to law abiding citizens.

Here is the NYC chapter's website and twitter feed so you can see what they're up to:

https://nycantifa.wordpress.com

Read on Twitter


registering a domain is easy

what do you really know about that website and who runs it?

I'd be wary of posting links as proof of anything at all considering the Russians have been busted manufacturing this kind of stuff on the regular


It's not just a website. It has information on it. If you want, you can check it out since you're the one who thinks they're involved in alleged nefarious acts. Moreover, you have no evidence of its illegitimacy.

I don't have to prove a negative. It is what it is. If you're skeptical, that's on you to establish.


i think your idea of burden of proof is completely backwards as nobody has to prove something is illegitimate you would have to prove it's legitimate, but even if it is real which I'm not denying it's important to mention that it's also true that tons of these fake facebook pages have arisen and a lot of them controlled by the alt-right to sow discord and misrepresent their opposition and they have been busted doing it so there is good reason to be skeptical https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-fake-antifa-acount-white-supremacists-removal/
User avatar
robillionaire
RealGM
Posts: 40,067
And1: 57,574
Joined: Jul 12, 2015
Location: Asheville
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1936 » by robillionaire » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:41 pm

Polk377 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Polk377 wrote:
Unfortunately the FBI have ZERO credibility after Comey's witch hunt proved to be a monumental failure. Just because your leftist media refuses to report on murders from their mob doesn't mean they don't exist. That is your problem, you paint everyone who doesn't believe in your radical left ideology as right wing extremists. Stay out of the middle of the street during rush hour and you won't get hit by a car. common sense.

Yes, the noted left wing organization FBI

What a f*cking joke lol.


I never said they were a left wing organization, I said they lost credibility as a viable source.


they disagreed with the furher so they aren't a viable source, that's how it works in nut land

meanwhile you justify vehicular terrorist attacks in your post, basically proving us right that you are the real threat to public safety
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1937 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 4:52 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Polk377 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:Yes, the noted left wing organization FBI

What a f*cking joke lol.


I never said they were a left wing organization, I said they lost credibility as a viable source.

Why, cause they launched an investigation which led to multiple members of Trump's team (including two campaign managers) to be arrested, the president being impeached and only saving his job by obstructing justice?

Bootlickers gonna bootlick, I guess. The problem is, people who think they're too smart for propaganda to work on them are exactly the type it works the best on. Dunning-Kruger effect and all.


TRUMP: 9 Associates imprisoned and counting
OBAMA: NONE

LAW & ORDER!
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1938 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 5:29 pm

Read on Twitter


Not only is Trump a White Supremacist, he is also a coward. He clearly said Proud Boys Stand Down and Stand By during the debate and now he does his classic vaudeville routine of I don't know they are. He's pathetic
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1939 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 1, 2020 5:46 pm


FACTS ARE YOUR FRIEND


ADL Report: Right-Wing Extremists Killed 38 People in 2019, Far Surpassing All Other Murderous Extremists
https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-report-right-wing-extremists-killed-38-people-in-2019-far-surpassing-all
ARTICLE:
Spoiler:
Right-wing extremists were responsible for the vast majority of extremist-related murders in the United States in 2019, with the El Paso shooting capping off a bloody decade during which the far right was responsible for 76 percent of all extremist-related murders.

ADL (Anti-Defamation League)’s annual Murder and Extremism report found that of the 42 extremist-related murders in the U.S. last year, 38 were committed by individuals subscribing to various far-right ideologies, including white supremacy.

ADL ranked 2019 as the sixth-deadliest year on record for extremist-related violence since 1970.

A total of 17 separate incidents were counted last year. The deadliest, by far, was the August white supremacist shooting spree at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, which left 22 people dead and at least 24 more wounded. Including the El Paso attack, white supremacists were behind 81 percent of the domestic extremist-related murders in 2019. Right-wing extremists were responsible for 90 percent of such murders in 2019 and for 330 deaths over the course of the last decade, accounting for 76 percent of all domestic extremist-related murders in that time.

“Over the last decade, right-wing extremists have been responsible for more than 75 percent of extremist-related murders in this country,” said ADL CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt. “This should no longer come as a shock to anyone. Lawmakers, law enforcement and the public need to recognize the grave and dangerous threat posed by violent white supremacy. We cannot begin to defeat this deadly form of hatred if we fail to even recognize it.”

The past five years (2015-2019) include four of the deadliest years on record for extremist murders. Last year, the number of extremist-related fatalities in the U.S. declined slightly from the previous year, dropping from 53 fatalities in 2018 to 43 in 2019. But last year’s total was still higher than 2017, when 41 deaths were recorded.

For the eighth year in a row, firearms were the weapon of choice for domestic extremists. Guns were involved in 86 percent of last year’s fatalities. In the past 10 years, 315 of the 435 people (72 percent) killed in the U.S. by extremists were shot to death. The increase in extremist-related shooting sprees in recent years is of particular concern.

The Murder and Extremism data is collected and recorded annually by researchers in ADL’s Center on Extremism, and is permanently archived on the online interactive ADL H.E.A.T Map, where trends can be plotted geographically and over time.

Last year also represented the first year since 2012 that ADL recorded no domestic killings linked to domestic Islamist extremism. However, the U.S. did experience what appears to be its first lethal foreign terror attack on American soil since 9/11: In December, a Saudi Arabian aviation student thought to be motivated by Islamist extremism killed three people at Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida.

The El Paso attack, which left 22 dead, was the third deadliest act of violence by a domestic extremist in more than 50 years. Only the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, which killed 168 people, and the 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando, which killed 49 people, were deadlier.
Five of the incidents, with a total of 29 fatalities, were ideologically motivated attacks of some kind. Non-ideological murders were linked to gangs, domestic violence and robberies.
Four of the murders were classified as “other/miscellaneous” extremism. This includes the Jersey City attack by David Anderson and Francine Graham, in which one police officer was killed at a cemetery and three civilians were killed at a Kosher supermarket. Both shooters had prior ties to the Black Hebrew Israelite movement, which defies a simple “left-right” classification scheme.

‘We Are Being Eaten From Within.’ Why America Is Losing the Battle Against White Nationalist Terrorism
https://time.com/5647304/white-nationalist-terrorism-united-states/
ARTICLE:
Spoiler:
When you think of a terrorist, what do you see? For more than a generation, the image lurking in Americans’ nightmares has resembled the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks: an Islamic jihadist. Not a 21-year-old white supremacist from a prosperous Dallas suburb.

But long before that young man drove to El Paso, Texas, on Aug. 3 and allegedly murdered at least 22 people at a Walmart crammed with back-to-school shoppers, it was clear that white nationalists have become the face of terrorism in America. Since 9/11, white supremacists and other far-right extremists have been responsible for almost three times as many attacks on U.S. soil as Islamic terrorists, the government reported. From 2009 through 2018, the far right has been responsible for 73% of domestic extremist-related fatalities, according to a 2019 study by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). And the toll is growing. More people–49–were murdered by far-right extremists in the U.S. last year than in any other year since the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. FBI Director Christopher Wray told Congress in July that a majority of the bureau’s domestic-terrorism investigations since October were linked to white supremacy.

Yet the nation’s leaders have failed to meet this menace. In more than a dozen interviews with TIME, current and former federal law-enforcement and national-security officials described a sense of bewilderment and frustration as they watched warnings go ignored and the white-supremacist terror threat grow. Over the past decade, multiple attempts to refocus federal resources on the issue have been thwarted. Entire offices meant to coordinate an interagency response to right-wing extremism were funded, staffed and then defunded in the face of legal, constitutional and political concerns.

Today, FBI officials say just 20% of the bureau’s counterterrorism field agents are focused on domestic probes. This year alone, those agents’ caseload has included an investigation into an Ohio militia allegedly stockpiling explosives to build pipe bombs; a self-professed white-supremacist Coast Guard officer who amassed an arsenal in his apartment in the greater Washington, D.C., area; an attack in April at a synagogue outside San Diego that killed one; and the July 28 assault at a garlic festival in Gilroy, Calif., that killed three. Cesar Sayoc, a 57-year-old man from Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison on Aug. 5 after pleading guilty to mailing 16 pipe bombs to Democrats and critics of President Donald Trump.

The FBI has warned about the rising domestic threat for years, but has not had a receptive audience in the White House. As a result, agency leadership hasn’t historically prioritized white-supremacist violence even among homegrown threats, for years listing “eco-terrorism” as the top risk, former special agent Michael German told the House Committee on Oversight and Reform in May.

Law-enforcement officials say the cancer of white nationalism has metastasized across social media and the dark corners of the Internet, creating a copycat effect in which aspiring killers draw inspiration and seek to outdo one another. The suspect in El Paso was at least the third this year to post a manifesto on the online message forum 8chan before logging off to commit mass murder. More people were killed that day in El Paso than all 14 service members killed this year on the battlefields in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.

“Even if there was a crackdown right now, it’s going to take years for the momentum of these groups to fade,” says Daryl Johnson, a former senior analyst at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), whose 2009 report on right-wing extremism was lambasted by conservatives even before its release. “I’m afraid we’ve reached a tipping point where we’re in for this kind of violence for a long time.”

Right-wing terrorism is a global problem, resulting in devastating attacks from New Zealand to Norway. But it is particularly dangerous in the U.S., which has more guns per capita than anywhere else in the world, an epidemic of mass shootings, a bedrock tradition of free speech that protects the expression of hateful ideologies and laws that make it challenging to confront a disaggregated movement that exists largely in the shadows of cyberspace.

Law enforcement lacks many of the weapons it uses against foreign enemies like al-Qaeda. To defend America from the danger posed by Islamist terror groups, the federal government built a globe-spanning surveillance and intelligence network capable of stopping attacks before they occurred. Federal agents were granted sweeping authorities by Congress to shadow foreign terrorist suspects. No comparable system exists in domestic-terror cases. Domestic terrorism is not even a federal crime, forcing prosecutors to charge suspects under hate-crime laws.

“White supremacy is a greater threat than international terrorism right now,” says David Hickton, a former U.S. Attorney who directs the University of Pittsburgh Institute for Cyber Law, Policy and Security. “We are being eaten from within.” Yet Hickton says federal prosecutors are limited in how they try domestic cases. “I’d have to pursue a white supremacist with hate crimes, unless he interfaced with al-Qaeda. Does that make any sense?”

Then there is the problem of a Commander in Chief whose rhetoric appears to mirror, validate and potentially inspire that of far-right extremists. The screed posted by the suspected terrorist in El Paso said he was motivated by a perceived “Hispanic invasion of Texas.” President Trump’s campaign has run some 2,200 Facebook ads warning of an “invasion” at the border, according to a CNN analysis. It’s a term he regularly uses in tweets and interviews. “People hate the word invasion, but that’s what it is,” he said in the Oval Office in March. “It’s an invasion of drugs and criminals and people.” (The El Paso shooter said his actions were unconnected to Trump. A senior Administration official told TIME that the criticism linking the President’s rhetoric to violence was “unfortunate, unreasonable and obviously politically motivated.”)

In the wake of the El Paso attack, which was followed by a second mass shooting in Dayton, Ohio, roughly 13 hours later, Trump promised to give federal authorities “whatever they need” to combat domestic terrorism. He said law enforcement “must do a better job of identifying and acting on early warning signs” and said he was directing the Justice Department to “work in partnership with local, state and federal agencies, as well as social-media companies, to develop tools that can detect mass shooters before they strike.”

But White House officials did not specify which new authorities are needed. Nor does the Administration’s record offer much hope. In the early days of his presidency, the Trump Administration gutted the DHS office that focused on violent extremism in the U.S. and pulled funding for grants that were meant to go to organizations countering neo-Nazis, white supremacists, antigovernment militants and other like-minded groups.

The El Paso suspect was born in 1998, three years after the worst homegrown terrorist attack in American history. The bombing of Oklahoma City’s Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was carried out by Timothy McVeigh, a Gulf War veteran who wanted to exact revenge against the federal government for the deadly sieges in Waco, Texas, and Ruby Ridge, Idaho. The sprawling investigation that followed McVeigh’s attack, which killed 168 people, foreshadowed some of the challenges facing law enforcement today.

The bombing helped call attention to the threat of domestic terrorism. But that focus dissipated in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, which drove the full force of the U.S. national-security system into fighting Islamic terrorism. From 2005 to 2009, according to a Justice Department audit, the number of FBI agents assigned to domestic-terrorism probes averaged less than 330 out of a total of almost 2,000 FBI agents assigned to counterterrorism cases.

By the end of George W. Bush’s presidency, however, it had become apparent to U.S. officials monitoring such threats that something serious was brewing at home. The prospect of the first black President sparked a sharp rise in far-right groups, from so-called Patriot movement adherents to antigovernment militias, according to analysts at DHS. The Secret Service took the unprecedented step of assigning Barack Obama a protective detail in May 2007, mere months into his campaign and long before candidates typically receive protection.

Johnson, who led a six-person group at DHS’ Office of Intelligence and Analysis, began working on a report about the rise of right-wing extremism. It warned that white nationalists, antigovernment extremists and members of other far-right groups were seizing on the economic crisis and Obama’s ascension to recruit new members. Johnson was preparing to release his report when a similar study by the Missouri Information Analysis Center, meant for law-enforcement officers, was leaked to the public in February 2009. The paper, titled “The Modern Militia Movement,” linked members of these militias to fundamentalist Christian, anti-abortion or anti-immigration movements.

The report was pilloried by GOP groups and politicians for singling out conservatives as possible criminals. Missouri officials warned Johnson about the blowback he could expect for publishing a similar analysis. But Johnson, who describes himself as a conservative Republican, says he thought the DHS lawyers and editors who worked on the report would provide a layer of protection from GOP criticism. “I didn’t think the whole Republican Party would basically throw a hissy fit,” he recalls.

But when the DHS report was leaked to conservative bloggers in April 2009, it provoked an outcry from Republicans and conservative media, who painted it as a political hit job by the Obama Administration. DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano, who originally issued a broad defense of the report, apologized to the American Legion for one of its most controversial components–a section that raised concerns about military veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan and subsequently being susceptible targets for recruitment by right-wing groups. Johnson’s team was slowly disbanded; the number of analysts devoted to non-Islamic domestic terrorism dwindled from six to zero in 2010, he said.

The Missouri and DHS reports were early examples of how the fight against right-wing terrorism would be hamstrung by politics. For years, “there’s been a visceral response from politicians that if these groups are being labeled as ‘right wing,’ then it’s Republicans who are responsible for those groups’ activities,” says Jason Blazakis, former director of the Counterterrorism Finance and Designations Office at the U.S. State Department, who is now a professor at the Middlebury Institute in Monterey, Calif. “It’s unfortunate, but I think in many ways this has resulted and served this reluctance in the Republican side to take as strong of action as they could.”

In interviews, veterans of the FBI, DHS and other national-security agencies recalled moments during the Obama Administration when they realized the domestic-terror threat was expanding unchecked. In January 2011, local police in Spokane, Wash., narrowly averted a tragedy when they redirected a Martin Luther King Day parade away from a roadside bomb planted on the route, loaded with shrapnel coated with a substance meant to keep blood from clotting in wounds. At the time, it was one of the most sophisticated improvised explosive devices to appear in the U.S. Two months later, the FBI arrested Kevin William Harpham, 36, a former U.S. Army member linked to the neo-Nazi National Alliance. “I remember being like, ‘Wow, we have a problem,'” recalls former FBI agent Clint Watts, a fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute. “The belief was always that this would be al-Qaeda, not a former soldier who is a white supremacist.”

In 2011, the Obama White House released a strategy to “empower local partners” to counter violent extremism. As part of that plan, DHS official George Selim was put in charge of leading these efforts as director of an interagency task force in 2016. Selim’s office of community partnerships, which had been set up a year earlier, grew to 16 full-time employees and 25 contractors, with a total budget of $21 million. As part of its work, it had $10 million in grants for local programs to counter propaganda, recognize the signs of radicalization in local communities and intervene to stop attacks before they happen.

But the Obama Administration was wary of the political blowback, according to a senior government official familiar with the efforts of the FBI and DHS, and mindful of the government’s lack of legal authority to monitor domestic hate speech, obtain search or surveillance warrants, or recruit sources. Meanwhile, the threat continued to grow, fueled in online forums. In June 2015, Dylann Roof, a 21-year-old who posted on the neo-Nazi site Stormfront under the screen name “Lil Aryan,” opened fire in a black church in Charleston, S.C., killing nine parishioners.

Then Trump won the White House. In the new Administration, efforts to confront domestic extremism “came to a grinding halt,” says Selim. The new Administration redirected federal resources on Islamist terrorism. Barely a week into his presidency, Reuters reported that Trump had tried to change the name of the Countering Violent Extremism program to Countering Radical Islamic Extremism.

The Administration’s reconstituted Office for Targeted Violence and Terrorism Prevention saw its mission expand while its staffing and budget were slashed to a fraction of what it had been, according to a former DHS official. “The infrastructure we had labored over for years started to get torn down,” says Selim, who also led counterterrorism efforts under George W. Bush. “It has been decimated in the past two years under this Administration.”

The Justice Department has also recently reorganized its domestic-terrorism categories in a way that masks the scope of white-supremacist violence, according to former FBI officials who say the change makes it harder to track or measure the scale of these attacks, which are often haphazardly classified as hate crimes or deferred to state and local authorities. The lack of clear data impacts the resources the FBI can devote to investigating them.

A second senior government official, granted anonymity to discuss the Trump Administration’s efforts, says that while FBI analysts continued to issue warnings about the alarming patterns of white-nationalist radicalization online, mid-level officials and political appointees quickly recognized that assessments that ran counter to what Trump was saying publicly would fall on deaf ears. “That could cost you a seat at the table,” the official says, “although there have been fewer and fewer tables to sit at and discuss intelligence and policy.”

As President, Trump has repeatedly downplayed the threat posed by white supremacists. He famously blamed “both sides” for violence at a white-nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va., in 2017. Asked if he saw white nationalism as a rising threat in the wake of a March attack on two New Zealand mosques by an avowed racist who killed 51 people, he countered, “I don’t really. It’s a small group of people.”

In a nation where a mass shooting occurs on average about once a day, it is easy to be cynical about the prospect of change. But following the El Paso and Dayton attacks, there are glimmers of hope, however slight.

The crowded field of Democratic presidential candidates has jumped on the issue, ensuring that the national spotlight of the 2020 campaign will keep the debate over guns and domestic terrorism from fading away. In Congress, Democrats have rallied behind legislation that would require DHS, the FBI and the Justice Department to address white supremacism and right-wing extremism, including training and information sharing.

Among law enforcement there has been a new push for domestic terrorism to be codified as a federal crime. “Acts of violence intended to intimidate civilian populations or to influence or affect government policy should be prosecuted as domestic terrorism regardless of the ideology behind them,” Brian O’Hare, president of the FBI Agents Association, wrote in a statement. Such a change would give prosecutors new tools to confront the threat of domestic radicalization.

There has also been a noticeable shift in how law-enforcement and government officials talk about these attacks. FBI agents, politicians and federal attorneys have become quicker to label extremist violence committed by Americans as “terrorism.” On Aug. 6, the FBI announced it was opening a domestic-terrorism investigation into the suspect in Gilroy, noting that the gunman had a “target list” of religious institutions, political organizations and federal buildings. The day after the El Paso attack, the top federal prosecutor in western Texas declared that the incident would be treated as terrorism. “We’re going to do what we do to terrorists in this country, which is deliver swift and certain justice,” said U.S. Attorney John Bash.

This language matters, experts say. If we cannot call an evil by its name, how can we hope to defeat it? “You can’t really deal with the problem unless you acknowledge it exists,” says Mark Pitcavage, senior research fellow at the ADL’s Center on Extremism, who has studied far-right extremism since the mid-1990s. “We need a consensus that this is a problem, and we need to get together, irrespective of people’s partisan beliefs or anything else, to confront this problem for the good of everybody.”
User avatar
omerome
RealGM
Posts: 16,571
And1: 8,836
Joined: Aug 22, 2004
Location: Maryland (via Brooklyn)

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1940 » by omerome » Thu Oct 1, 2020 5:48 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Read on Twitter


Not only is Trump a White Supremacist, he is also a coward. He clearly said Proud Boys Stand Down and Stand By during the debate and now he does his classic vaudeville routine of I don't know they are. He's pathetic

The resident has said that no one has a better memory than him and yet he can't remember what he said two days ago. SAD.

Return to New York Knicks