ImageImageImage

Nuggets Trades

Moderator: THE J0KER

User avatar
THE J0KER
Forum Mod - Nuggets
Forum Mod - Nuggets
Posts: 7,441
And1: 6,816
Joined: Apr 12, 2017
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#401 » by THE J0KER » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:56 pm

skywalker33 wrote:Again, I don't know where you come up with these crazy statements but I don't buy this at all. We were getting our buts whipped in the playoffs until GHarris came back, it changed the trajectory of our playoffs. And while he's not known for his D, Barton can play some adequate defense himself.
When Denver was humiliated in games #2 and #3 against Utah Jazz the true reason for that is Malone losing control of everything with the whole team collapse defensively and offensively both. It was easy to use Porter as a scapegoat and say that Gary Harris is our saint and savior. But in reality, Harris missed 5 opening games vs Utah, and in his 1st game after comeback, he played just 20 minutes, in a game where Utah starting guards Mitchell and Conley scored 44+21 points (21-38 FG), but it was frontcourt line and bench who betrayed Utah that night (with another epic Murray performance) for a routine Nuggets win. So, basically, we are 3-3 vs Utah without Harris with two gifted loses, and in the series vs Lakers Harris impact was literally negative with no opponent backcourt player on which he can use his defensive talent and awful 26FG% offense were Malone too late realizes need to restrict Harris minutes under 20. Harris would be very useful against Utah, not just in the final game#7, with his great defense he was the 4th most important player in the win vs Clippers, and if we reached the final he would use much more effectively vs Butler and Dragic than vs Lakers.

But overall speaking, Harris importance to the Denver game and defense was pumped by the Barton injury and the Beasley trade, so we have Harris>>>Morris defense case. Otherwise, he would be another dead salary this season with Millsap and Plumlee, producing just 10-3-2 52%TS (7-2-2 in playoff) for $18M. If we re-sign Grant, and Malone and Porter solve their issues, the only spot where we should be focussed on improvement are Harris/Barton guard spot. If our FO makes that Jrue trade before the trade-deadline which they tried this winter, our chances vs the Lakers would be 50% this summer in WCF if not higher!

The other player which should be traded is Will Barton. He has a career-best season this year and was even playing with the highest playing time this season. Barton is a good two-way player able to play in three different positions, but he is a bad fit for this Denver system and roster. Period.
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 13,388
And1: 6,793
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#402 » by TGW » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:20 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Denver sends out Morris and Barton for Wendell Carter JR, Tomas Satoransky, and Chandler Hutchison.
Wendell Carter JR is 21y old #7 pick from the already famous draft which already at 20 averaged a double-double. Why would Chicago Bulls give their 2nd biggest asset for nothing except in the case that Arturas Karnisovas still secretly working for Nuggets?

The Rebel wrote:Chicago needs good attitudes in the lockerroom, a guy who can be the veteran leader, and Barton can do that as well as starting at SF with Otto Porter's injury issues or be their scorer off the bench. They also really need a pass 1st PG that can hit spot up shots, plus they get off Satoransky's contract.
Using the same logic Bulls can send to us *offer* Thaddeus Young and (S&D) Kris Dunn for Michael Portor jr, but why on the Earth we would take it seriously?

It is very easy to create a great (for Denver) trade which will be a great improvement for the Nuggets without care of value balance and what the other side needs. In eventual trades with rebuilding teams, I don't see we can make a trade without send assets, and if we lock Jokic-Murray-Porter our best asset now are Bol Bol and future firsts. We traded last summer FRP for expiring Grant, and that is a good example of how it works. In another trade we get FRP, but young players under a rookie contract Beasley, Juancho, and JV which we sent were 'assets' too.

Friendly connections with Bulls GM right now can be used only as 3-team deals, because players whose Bulls are ready to trade for more assets (Lavine and expiring Markkanen and O.Porter) are not so interesting for us. For example:

Chicago: Wall, Bol, Morris, WAS#9, DEN#22, WAS#37, DEN2022
Washington: LaVine, Harris, Barton
Denver: Beal

In this eventual blockbuster trade, you can see clear logic for all sides involved. Wizards using all-star Beal and #9 2020 pick to get rid of all-NBA worst Wall supermax contract, and get a new temporary franchise player in near all-star LaVine with two proven NBA starters (Harris and Barton), and cleaning cap for one notable free agent. Bulls restart their rebuilding process and doing what Nuggets do in 2014 using cap space and the current best player which they don't need anyway for tanking in the next two seasons, to gets several assets and alibi for tanking next two seasons without results (and grab 2021 and 2022 TOP5 picks). In 2022 summer they can trade the expiring Wall contract, sign a big name FA (or even two, they are a big market team), and start to compete with a young team full of assets and former TOP10 picks. Denver gets a true all-star without losing any of the best 4 players (Jokic-Murray-MPJ-Grant) with guaranteed status as TOP3 contender next 3 seasons.


That is horrifically bad for the Wizards. Just awful. The Wizards aren't going to trade Beal and a lottery pick just to turn Wall into Lavine and some role players.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
Mickey8
Head Coach
Posts: 6,376
And1: 5,233
Joined: Jan 21, 2017

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#403 » by Mickey8 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:40 pm

I am all for Beal if they can pull it out by not giving away main pieces, that would make Denver instant contender in the Western Conference. Beal can also create for himself and others, Denver would be much better offensively as a team.
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#404 » by skywalker33 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:17 pm

THE J0KER wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Again, I don't know where you come up with these crazy statements but I don't buy this at all. We were getting our buts whipped in the playoffs until GHarris came back, it changed the trajectory of our playoffs. And while he's not known for his D, Barton can play some adequate defense himself.
When Denver was humiliated in games #2 and #3 against Utah Jazz the true reason for that is Malone losing control of everything with the whole team collapse defensively and offensively both. It was easy to use Porter as a scapegoat and say that Gary Harris is our saint and savior. But in reality, Harris missed 5 opening games vs Utah, and in his 1st game after comeback, he played just 20 minutes, in a game where Utah starting guards Mitchell and Conley scored 44+21 points (21-38 FG), but it was frontcourt line and bench who betrayed Utah that night (with another epic Murray performance) for a routine Nuggets win. So, basically, we are 3-3 vs Utah without Harris with two gifted loses, and in the series vs Lakers Harris impact was literally negative with no opponent backcourt player on which he can use his defensive talent and awful 26FG% offense were Malone too late realizes need to restrict Harris minutes under 20. Harris would be very useful against Utah, not just in the final game#7, with his great defense he was the 4th most important player in the win vs Clippers, and if we reached the final he would use much more effectively vs Butler and Dragic than vs Lakers.

But overall speaking, Harris importance to the Denver game and defense was pumped by the Barton injury and the Beasley trade, so we have Harris>>>Morris defense case. Otherwise, he would be another dead salary this season with Millsap and Plumlee, producing just 10-3-2 52%TS (7-2-2 in playoff) for $18M. If we re-sign Grant, and Malone and Porter solve their issues, the only spot where we should be focussed on improvement are Harris/Barton guard spot. If our FO makes that Jrue trade before the trade-deadline which they tried this winter, our chances vs the Lakers would be 50% this summer in WCF if not higher!

The other player which should be traded is Will Barton. He has a career-best season this year and was even playing with the highest playing time this season. Barton is a good two-way player able to play in three different positions, but he is a bad fit for this Denver system and roster. Period.


I agree with you that Barton's days in Denver should be over but to say our lack of defense wasn't the reason we were down 1-3 to the Jazz is a head-scratcher. While Harris didn't shut down the Jazz by himself, playing defense is infectious and inspirational to the come-back. I shall agree his play isn't worthy of the $18M he's getting, but he is the strongest perimeter defender we have at this point. Unless we can find a replacement, trading him would just create another huge hole.

Why you claimed I said Porter was to blame is ridiculous, I like the progress MPJ has made and continue to believe he is on path for stardom.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#405 » by skywalker33 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:30 pm

TGW wrote:
THE J0KER wrote:
The Rebel wrote:Denver sends out Morris and Barton for Wendell Carter JR, Tomas Satoransky, and Chandler Hutchison.
Wendell Carter JR is 21y old #7 pick from the already famous draft which already at 20 averaged a double-double. Why would Chicago Bulls give their 2nd biggest asset for nothing except in the case that Arturas Karnisovas still secretly working for Nuggets?

The Rebel wrote:Chicago needs good attitudes in the lockerroom, a guy who can be the veteran leader, and Barton can do that as well as starting at SF with Otto Porter's injury issues or be their scorer off the bench. They also really need a pass 1st PG that can hit spot up shots, plus they get off Satoransky's contract.
Using the same logic Bulls can send to us *offer* Thaddeus Young and (S&D) Kris Dunn for Michael Portor jr, but why on the Earth we would take it seriously?

It is very easy to create a great (for Denver) trade which will be a great improvement for the Nuggets without care of value balance and what the other side needs. In eventual trades with rebuilding teams, I don't see we can make a trade without send assets, and if we lock Jokic-Murray-Porter our best asset now are Bol Bol and future firsts. We traded last summer FRP for expiring Grant, and that is a good example of how it works. In another trade we get FRP, but young players under a rookie contract Beasley, Juancho, and JV which we sent were 'assets' too.

Friendly connections with Bulls GM right now can be used only as 3-team deals, because players whose Bulls are ready to trade for more assets (Lavine and expiring Markkanen and O.Porter) are not so interesting for us. For example:

Chicago: Wall, Bol, Morris, WAS#9, DEN#22, WAS#37, DEN2022
Washington: LaVine, Harris, Barton
Denver: Beal

In this eventual blockbuster trade, you can see clear logic for all sides involved. Wizards using all-star Beal and #9 2020 pick to get rid of all-NBA worst Wall supermax contract, and get a new temporary franchise player in near all-star LaVine with two proven NBA starters (Harris and Barton), and cleaning cap for one notable free agent. Bulls restart their rebuilding process and doing what Nuggets do in 2014 using cap space and the current best player which they don't need anyway for tanking in the next two seasons, to gets several assets and alibi for tanking next two seasons without results (and grab 2021 and 2022 TOP5 picks). In 2022 summer they can trade the expiring Wall contract, sign a big name FA (or even two, they are a big market team), and start to compete with a young team full of assets and former TOP10 picks. Denver gets a true all-star without losing any of the best 4 players (Jokic-Murray-MPJ-Grant) with guaranteed status as TOP3 contender next 3 seasons.


That is horrifically bad for the Wizards. Just awful. The Wizards aren't going to trade Beal and a lottery pick just to turn Wall into Lavine and some role players.


While I agree this isn't a great trade for the Wiz, Wall has been dead weight for the past 2 years with his injuries. And the 9th pick in a weak draft isn't nearly as significant as the risk of a team trading for him given his salary cap hit. LaVine is a decent player but to claim Barton and Harris are just "role player" is a bit insulting.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 13,388
And1: 6,793
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#406 » by TGW » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:40 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
TGW wrote:While I agree this isn't a great trade for the Wiz, Wall has been dead weight for the past 2 years with his injuries. And the 9th pick in a weak draft isn't nearly as significant as the risk of a team trading for him given his salary cap hit. LaVine is a decent player but to claim Barton and Harris are just "role player" is a bit insulting.


Wall could play tomorrow if given the opportunity. As a matter of fact, Wall has been ready to play since March but the team received a massive insurance payment that would only be paid out if he sat for the entire season.

Wall isn't being traded unless it's a no brainer trade. They absolutely wouldn't water down Beal's trade value by attaching Wall to him.

As for Harris and Barton...well, Harris is awful. Barton is a useful bench player. They're just fillers in a terribly constructed trade.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#407 » by skywalker33 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:56 pm

TGW wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:
TGW wrote:While I agree this isn't a great trade for the Wiz, Wall has been dead weight for the past 2 years with his injuries. And the 9th pick in a weak draft isn't nearly as significant as the risk of a team trading for him given his salary cap hit. LaVine is a decent player but to claim Barton and Harris are just "role player" is a bit insulting.


Wall could play tomorrow if given the opportunity. As a matter of fact, Wall has been ready to play since March but the team received a massive insurance payment that would only be paid out if he sat for the entire season.

Wall isn't being traded unless it's a no brainer trade. They absolutely wouldn't water down Beal's trade value by attaching Wall to him.

As for Harris and Barton...well, Harris is awful. Barton is a useful bench player. They're just fillers in a terribly constructed trade.


So, as you state, it ISN'T about the winning for the Wizards, it's about the money :roll: Harris has had injuries too, definitely has had a huge impact on his offensive game but he's still one of the best perimeter defenders in the game right now. To call him awful is a pathetic response to a bad trade proposal. Very unlikely this trade was to gain ANY footing, even so, I think your evaluation is disrespectful.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
User avatar
THE J0KER
Forum Mod - Nuggets
Forum Mod - Nuggets
Posts: 7,441
And1: 6,816
Joined: Apr 12, 2017
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#408 » by THE J0KER » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:31 am

For those who think that everything is just fine, that we don't need some notable roster change (notable guard instead Harris+Barton if you ask me), just read this tweet between the lines!

Read on Twitter


Just a reminder of how teams which reached 2020 2nd round of playoff improved their roster for this season (best new player):

Lakers - Anthony Davis (+)
Miami - Jimmy Butler (+)

Denver - Jeramy Grant (+)
Boston - Kemba Walker (+)
Clippers - Kawhi Leonard (+)
Houston - Russell Westbrook (=)

Milwaukee - Wesley Matthews (=)
Toronto - Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (-)

(+ means better result than in 2019, = equal, and - means worse result)

5 teams (in RED) out of 8 find a way to get an all-star upgrade for this season and results are instantly here!
Manolito
Senior
Posts: 607
And1: 398
Joined: Dec 29, 2018
   

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#409 » by Manolito » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:17 am

What about Bradley Beal x MPJ x GHarris + Monte Morris + Cancar (salary fill) + FRP 21

Losing MPJ hurts, but Denver is in a win now situation and bringing Beal with 3 more years in the books is a top addition. Monte´s role would not be that big with Murray & Beal, and he is going to be paid next year.
NuggetsWY
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 10,392
And1: 4,125
Joined: Oct 28, 2015
Location: Cheyenne, WY
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#410 » by NuggetsWY » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:01 am

I'll stick with my previous stand: I do not trade Jokic, Murray, or Porter no matter what.
I'll also say that I actually don't believe the Nuggets are likely to make any major trade. It goes against their nature, at least under the current ownership/management.

I can dream about trading for Covington or Jrue but my best hope is that we can acquire a solid bench player - most likely a big (because good two-way 3&D wings are hard to find).
User avatar
THE J0KER
Forum Mod - Nuggets
Forum Mod - Nuggets
Posts: 7,441
And1: 6,816
Joined: Apr 12, 2017
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#411 » by THE J0KER » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:52 am

NuggetsWY wrote:I'll stick with my previous stand: I do not trade Jokic, Murray, or Porter no matter what.
I'll also say that I actually don't believe the Nuggets are likely to make any major trade. It goes against their nature, at least under the current ownership/management.

I can dream about trading for Covington or Jrue but my best hope is that we can acquire a solid bench player - most likely a big (because good two-way 3&D wings are hard to find).
Together with T.J. Warren, Covington was my TOP trade target in the past 2 years, because our biggest problem was the SF spot and they both have long-term team-friendly contracts. But with the Porter-Grant-Bol triangle forwards are not anymore our upgrade priority but the 2nd guard option. If we ignore some injury red flags and potential salary cap problems in the near future, Jrue as a two-way guard seems like the perfect solution and "missing piece" which we needed for the next step.
Manolito
Senior
Posts: 607
And1: 398
Joined: Dec 29, 2018
   

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#412 » by Manolito » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:57 pm

I agree Jrue Holiday is a nice add and considerably cheaper than Beal, we were discussing that in February.

Nevertheless, what could be an interesting offer for Pelicans? Harris + Monte + 2020 HOU FRP does not sound very promising for them. I guess Bol Bol should also be included.
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#413 » by skywalker33 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:03 pm

Manolito wrote:I agree Jrue Holiday is a nice add and considerably cheaper than Beal, we were discussing that in February.

Nevertheless, what could be an interesting offer for Pelicans? Harris + Monte + 2020 HOU FRP does not sound very promising for them. I guess Bol Bol should also be included.


While I agree with your premise on needing to add more to get Jrue, I think I'd be inclined to see more what Bol Bol can bring before I toss him in as a sweetener. I would however think about adding in another protected draft pick. Not truly excited about this 2020 crop of prospects, especially at the 22nd pick.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
The Rebel
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 25,186
And1: 11,359
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#414 » by The Rebel » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:18 pm

Manolito wrote:What about Bradley Beal x MPJ x GHarris + Monte Morris + Cancar (salary fill) + FRP 21

Losing MPJ hurts, but Denver is in a win now situation and bringing Beal with 3 more years in the books is a top addition. Monte´s role would not be that big with Murray & Beal, and he is going to be paid next year.

I dont think it will work under the trade rules, and I would rather include Barton than all the small contracts, as we will need those small contracts to keep the costs down.
The Rebel
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 25,186
And1: 11,359
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#415 » by The Rebel » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:20 pm

Manolito wrote:I agree Jrue Holiday is a nice add and considerably cheaper than Beal, we were discussing that in February.

Nevertheless, what could be an interesting offer for Pelicans? Harris + Monte + 2020 HOU FRP does not sound very promising for them. I guess Bol Bol should also be included.

I am not sure they would get a better offer if we include Bol and that pick, so if they would do it than i would.
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#416 » by skywalker33 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 6:50 pm

I don't think I am ready to trade Bol, the spacing he creates and the size mismatches he can create present a huge advantage id the coaching staff can find a way. Also, to realistically obtain Jrue we'll have to give up at least Harris for salary matching. While Jrue is a better two-way player than Harris, is the extra 8ppg (at the moment, he could rebound) worth the extra $7-9M we could use toward Grant ? Seems we'd be just swapping Harris's D out for Jrue's and getting the little extra scoring while losing out on Grant (or going into the Luxury Tax). With Murray, Jokic, MPJ, and BArton do we have a need for the extra scoring at the expense of draft pick, Grant and his D, intriguing prospects and certainly not going into the Luxury Tax (at least for KSE).
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
Mickey8
Head Coach
Posts: 6,376
And1: 5,233
Joined: Jan 21, 2017

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#417 » by Mickey8 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 8:49 pm

Bol Bol is just another super tall freak player like Marjanovic, I dont see him ever being serious rotational player. If you can package him for some star player, do it without thinking about it.
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#418 » by skywalker33 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 9:53 pm

Mickey8 wrote:Bol Bol is just another super tall freak player like Marjanovic, I dont see him ever being serious rotational player. If you can package him for some star player, do it without thinking about it.


Nice of you to chime in, Mickey, with your prediction rate, looks like he's gonna be a superstar :lol: :lol: :lol:

All kidding aside, did you see him play in the bubble ?? For a first year player coming off injuries, he showed some shooting touch, had some good handles even had a few nice blocks....what's not to think with he can't become a rotational player other than a Negative Nancy attitude ??
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
NuggetsWY
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 10,392
And1: 4,125
Joined: Oct 28, 2015
Location: Cheyenne, WY
 

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#419 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Oct 1, 2020 11:02 pm

skywalker33 wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:Bol Bol is just another super tall freak player like Marjanovic, I dont see him ever being serious rotational player. If you can package him for some star player, do it without thinking about it.

Nice of you to chime in, Mickey, with your prediction rate, looks like he's gonna be a superstar :lol: :lol: :lol:

All kidding aside, did you see him play in the bubble ?? For a first year player coming off injuries, he showed some shooting touch, had some good handles even had a few nice blocks....what's not to think with he can't become a rotational player other than a Negative Nancy attitude ??

I'm not convinced he'll ever be All-Star level, but with his size, handles, shot, I can see him as a 15-20 mpg player - maybe 20-25 mpg.
skywalker33
Nuggets Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 14,102
And1: 5,457
Joined: Jun 02, 2014
       

Re: Nuggets Trades 

Post#420 » by skywalker33 » Fri Oct 2, 2020 2:42 am

No one really needs Bol to be an All-Stor or even a starter but he will provide depth and matchup issues.
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!

Return to Denver Nuggets