2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome)

[GONYK]

I like how you say they're not a white supremacist group, then define their beliefs as what white nationalism is

The Proud Boys are white nationalist neo-nazis. Plain and simple. "I have a black friend" is one of the most tired, overused arguments against racism. How could Thomas Jefferson be racist, most of his children were biracial!

"Western" ideology is a dog whistle. Everyone knows it, and you either genuinely don't know (which means you need to educate yourself on alt-right propaganda) or you do know and are gaslighting. Really, neither is better than the other

Also, there's no way you don't know that white pride is synonymous with white supremacy.

Having non-white members also does not mean you aren't a white supremacy group.

They are a male supremecy group more than anything. Tell me what Black or Hispanic people are joining a white supremecy group? None maybe?

https://www.univision.com/univision-news/united-states/meet-the-hispanic-white-supremacist-in-southern-californias-alt-right-movement

LOS ANGELES, Calif. - A Hispanic immigrant who defines himself as a patriot and activist of the 'Alt-Right', a far-right movement linked to white supremacists, was the main organizer of a protest against undocumented immigrants that took place Sunday in southern California.

Juan Cadavid, alias 'Johnny Benitez,' has been a member of a group that has participated in violent clashes against opponents of President Donald Trump.

He is 29 years old and originally from Colombia, and was brought to the United States by his parents when he was two years old, Cadavid told Univision News.

"I arrived as a baby, in the late 1980s, my family came with a work visa and had to go through a long process to sort out their papers, but we arrived legally," said Cadavid, who lives in Orange County.

On social networks, where he identifies himself as 'Johnny Benitez', he upholds the anti-immigrant policies of the Trump administration, such as deporting all undocumented people, closing doors to refugees and building a border wall.

A 'Proud Boy'
Cadavid acknowledged having been a member of 'Proud Boys', an organization with a supremacist ideology that has staged violent clashes with opponents of Trump.

"I am no longer a 'Proud Boys', but that group is not racist, neither are 'Alt Knights' nor other groups. They are just defenders of white people, but they are not against people of color," he added.

The 'Alt-Right' movement believes that the white race is under attack by multicultural forces, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), an organization that studies U.S. hate groups. Its members, according to the SPLC, are characterized by use of cyber bullying and memes spread via social networks to attack liberal groups they call 'Antifas,' (anti-fascists.)

[GONYK]

yeah white people never realized that they were white until 2016

They realized they were Italian. Polish, Irish, Catholic, Jewish, or into softball. I didn't say they didn't know they were white, but their identity isn't built around it. Whites don't wake up htinking about how white they are, or heading down to the White Engineering Society, or flipping on white entertainment television, or reading white enterprise. It's just not core to their being. When I went to college, I got bombarded with Hispanic this and Hispanic Society of that and all these different groups where I would be encouraged to meet and immerse myself in other people for no real reason other than we checked Hispanic on our applications. White classmates just went about their lives. There are proxies certainly, like frats and such but it's just not the center of their lives. It's just not.

But back to my question that you deflected, what he presented in Atlanta that the media refused to acknowledge cover or discuss or debate openly.

"What's racist in Trump's actual stated, written and published plans for helping black people? (besides the fact that it specifically helps a group of people who share an ethnic background disproportionately). What on here don't you agree with or would do differently? Or I guess what do see at https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/the-issues/ that looks better? "

Well this is actually a large part of the problem, maybe the so called colorblindness and unawareness and indifference to the racism that permeates society and going about their lives instead of being outraged at these injustices for all these years is a reason we are where we are in such a sad state today. I reject the idea that this is all just ignorance, but now many are developing this victimhood complex and confusing loss of privilege as their own oppression and Trump is seizing on that.

What don't I agree with in that plan? For one it's coming from a fascist regime that is dishonest and has proven they will do anything for power, that aside, it's not a concrete policy, it's ideas and platitudes that will likely never actually happen, and while it seems innocent enough at face value, we know the whole thing is designed to shoehorn in the idea of being able to detain indefinitely anti-fascists who they can designate as terrorists so they can go after trump's political enemies and protesters and put them in Guantanamo, but it's trying to be hidden in a bunch of racial bribes. Many of the people who would be labeled as "antifa" which isn't an organization, would be black people and BLM protesters and really ANY protester. He thinks it's so clever but I think most people identify the agenda and see right through it. But why would you even put this forward as something to be applauded when you claim the root of your dislike for the dems is because they do this exact same kind of pandering? How is this any different? Why do you support this if not for the reason I already pointed out? You wouldn't.

This is the shroud Trump supporters hide behind. Let's stick to media created by a team of consultants and pretend Trump stands for those things instead of paying attention to the words coming out of Trump's mouth every day!

Any generic Republican can put together a document like that. Only Trump has a cult following. I wonder why?

[Clyde_Style]

Trump let the mask slip off just a little too far on tuesday fellas. Good luck defending all this. I don't know who is still buying but good luck

The carnage of this administration is incalcuable and will take years, even decades to recover from, but perhaps there is a silver lining in America being led by such a disgraceful bigot. It put it all out into the open. Yes, it empowered all kinds of bad behavior by civilians, but it also made it crystal clear that our society is sick and needs treatment fast. Maybe it will lead to bigger and better changes sooner than if the illness had festered with a less visible face.

[robillionaire]

Trump broke the debate rules his campaign agreed to

Trump's M.O. is to cut and run so there is a good chance now he'll bail out of the remaining debates.

The debate commision is going to change the rules for the next event

Trump may say he doesn't accept the rule changes and take his ball and go home

Which would present a sterling opportunity for Biden to hold a Town Hall event at the scheduled time and do a Q & A with the public. His audience for that would be significant

Plus Trump would just hang the loser and chicken label around his own neck if he bails

I don't think he would, surely his people are telling him the first one didn't go very well for him, he really needs a second chance

[GONYK]

Trump broke the debate rules his campaign agreed to

Trump's M.O. is to cut and run so there is a good chance now he'll bail out of the remaining debates.

The debate commision is going to change the rules for the next event

Trump may say he doesn't accept the rule changes and take his ball and go home

Which would present a sterling opportunity for Biden to hold a Town Hall event at the scheduled time and do a Q & A with the public. His audience for that would be significant

Plus Trump would just hang the loser and chicken label around his own neck if he bails

I don't think he would, surely his people are telling him the first one didn't go very well for him, he really needs a second chance

The town hall format of the next one is the best possible setting for Biden and the worst possible setting for Trump.

I know that's why the Biden campaign certainly won't be pulling out.

[Clyde_Style]

Trump broke the debate rules his campaign agreed to

Trump's M.O. is to cut and run so there is a good chance now he'll bail out of the remaining debates.

The debate commision is going to change the rules for the next event

Trump may say he doesn't accept the rule changes and take his ball and go home

Which would present a sterling opportunity for Biden to hold a Town Hall event at the scheduled time and do a Q & A with the public. His audience for that would be significant

Plus Trump would just hang the loser and chicken label around his own neck if he bails

I don't think he would, surely his people are telling him the first one didn't go very well for him, he really needs a second chance

It is just a possible scenario. Trump is a coward. You can smell the fear radiating out of him as everything closes in on him and his past catches up to him. Now his daughter is going to prison too with confirmation she was laundering money for the the Trump Org. He's a desperate animal so anything is possible now.

[Clyde_Style]

Trump broke the debate rules his campaign agreed to

Trump's M.O. is to cut and run so there is a good chance now he'll bail out of the remaining debates.

The debate commision is going to change the rules for the next event

Trump may say he doesn't accept the rule changes and take his ball and go home

Which would present a sterling opportunity for Biden to hold a Town Hall event at the scheduled time and do a Q & A with the public. His audience for that would be significant

Plus Trump would just hang the loser and chicken label around his own neck if he bails

I don't think he would, surely his people are telling him the first one didn't go very well for him, he really needs a second chance

It is just a possible scenario. Trump is a coward. You can smell the fear radiating out of him as everything closes in on him and his past catches up to him. Now his daughter is going to prison too with confirmation she was laundering money for the the Trump Org. He's a desperate animal so anything is possible now.

Trump held a town hall recently and it was DISASTROUS, truly worse than even this crazed debate performance

I certainly hope so. The contrast between the two of them would be even more stark in a town hall format

[Stannis]

Somethings I would like to see from Biden in the next debates:

1) Keep reminding the American people that Trump only wants to work with Republican leaders and be president to republicans, not the USA. Unity should be Biden's theme. And Trump's America is probably the most dividend America since the Civil Rights movement.

2) The Stock Market isn't the economy. And most of the people who lost their jobs didn't have 401ks. Stock market is a chart for rich people. Us regular folk just buy in and try to enjoy the ride if we can. But this market boom we are seeing is just the rich getting richer.

3) He needs to do better in remembering stats and facts. Trump straight up lied when he said Michigan and Ohio had their best years ever. Biden needs to say more than "that's not true". He needs to hit Trump with the number of people who lost their jobs in those states.

4) Remind the people that Trump was kissing Xi's ass up until the Covid crisis. He touched on this a little bit last debate, but not enough. Remind us that Trump gave Xi the ok to put the Muslim Uigers in camps.

5) Don't forget about the Latino voters...

[Polk377]

Proud Boys are not a white supremacist group. They actually have non white members. They believe in Western ideologies and that if you are American or White or Male, you should not be blamed for all of the problems and not be allowed to feel pride in themselves for being American, White or Male. Pretty much anti-feminists. They don't think victim virtue should be praised either. To fight against this they take radical action against their opposition with wrong tactics.

I like how you say they're not a white supremacist group, then define their beliefs as what white nationalism is

The Proud Boys are white nationalist neo-nazis. Plain and simple. "I have a black friend" is one of the most tired, overused arguments against racism. How could Thomas Jefferson be racist, most of his children were biracial!

"Western" ideology is a dog whistle. Everyone knows it, and you either genuinely don't know (which means you need to educate yourself on alt-right propaganda) or you do know and are gaslighting. Really, neither is better than the other

Also, there's no way you don't know that white pride is synonymous with white supremacy.

".......... but I have a black friend .........."

To remain a Trump supporter you have two choices:

(a) Be honest about your support of White Supremacy or

(b) be dishonest and sweep it under the rug

Trump eliminated all other variables at the debate

Polk is just dishonest. They actively support White Nationalism

You can be White (someone who is Caucasian) and a Nationalist (someone who supports the interest of their own nation above other nations) without being a racist. It is a thing. I promise. Just because I like dogs and Hitler liked dogs doesn't mean that I support genocide. You can have commonalities with dispicible people but not believe in the thing that makes them dispicible. The world is not Black or White folks. It is shades of Grey.

[Polk377]

Having non-white members also does not mean you aren't a white supremacy group.

They are a male supremecy group more than anything. Tell me what Black or Hispanic people are joining a white supremecy group? None maybe?

https://www.univision.com/univision-news/united-states/meet-the-hispanic-white-supremacist-in-southern-californias-alt-right-movement

LOS ANGELES, Calif. - A Hispanic immigrant who defines himself as a patriot and activist of the 'Alt-Right', a far-right movement linked to white supremacists, was the main organizer of a protest against undocumented immigrants that took place Sunday in southern California.

Juan Cadavid, alias 'Johnny Benitez,' has been a member of a group that has participated in violent clashes against opponents of President Donald Trump.

He is 29 years old and originally from Colombia, and was brought to the United States by his parents when he was two years old, Cadavid told Univision News.

"I arrived as a baby, in the late 1980s, my family came with a work visa and had to go through a long process to sort out their papers, but we arrived legally," said Cadavid, who lives in Orange County.

On social networks, where he identifies himself as 'Johnny Benitez', he upholds the anti-immigrant policies of the Trump administration, such as deporting all undocumented people, closing doors to refugees and building a border wall.

A 'Proud Boy'
Cadavid acknowledged having been a member of 'Proud Boys', an organization with a supremacist ideology that has staged violent clashes with opponents of Trump.

"I am no longer a 'Proud Boys', but that group is not racist, neither are 'Alt Knights' nor other groups. They are just defenders of white people, but they are not against people of color," he added.

The 'Alt-Right' movement believes that the white race is under attack by multicultural forces, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), an organization that studies U.S. hate groups. Its members, according to the SPLC, are characterized by use of cyber bullying and memes spread via social networks to attack liberal groups they call 'Antifas,' (anti-fascists.)

Exactly what I said

[robillionaire]

I like how you say they're not a white supremacist group, then define their beliefs as what white nationalism is

The Proud Boys are white nationalist neo-nazis. Plain and simple. "I have a black friend" is one of the most tired, overused arguments against racism. How could Thomas Jefferson be racist, most of his children were biracial!

"Western" ideology is a dog whistle. Everyone knows it, and you either genuinely don't know (which means you need to educate yourself on alt-right propaganda) or you do know and are gaslighting. Really, neither is better than the other

Also, there's no way you don't know that white pride is synonymous with white supremacy.

".......... but I have a black friend .........."

To remain a Trump supporter you have two choices:

(a) Be honest about your support of White Supremacy or

(b) be dishonest and sweep it under the rug

Trump eliminated all other variables at the debate

Polk is just dishonest. They actively support White Nationalism

You can be White (someone who is Caucasian) and a Nationalist (someone who supports the interest of their own nation above other nations) without being a racist. It is a thing. I promise. Just because I like dogs and Hitler liked dogs doesn't mean that I support genocide. You can have commonalities with dispicible people but not believe in the thing that makes them dispicible. The world is not Black or White folks. It is shades of Grey.

where to start with unpacking this

the white nationalism is literally the thing that makes them despicable. that's the ideology. it's not the dog liking. it's the white nationalism

[Clyde_Style]

I like how you say they're not a white supremacist group, then define their beliefs as what white nationalism is

The Proud Boys are white nationalist neo-nazis. Plain and simple. "I have a black friend" is one of the most tired, overused arguments against racism. How could Thomas Jefferson be racist, most of his children were biracial!

"Western" ideology is a dog whistle. Everyone knows it, and you either genuinely don't know (which means you need to educate yourself on alt-right propaganda) or you do know and are gaslighting. Really, neither is better than the other

Also, there's no way you don't know that white pride is synonymous with white supremacy.

".......... but I have a black friend .........."

To remain a Trump supporter you have two choices:

(a) Be honest about your support of White Supremacy or

(b) be dishonest and sweep it under the rug

Trump eliminated all other variables at the debate

Polk is just dishonest. They actively support White Nationalism

You can be White (someone who is Caucasian) and a Nationalist (someone who supports the interest of their own nation above other nations) without being a racist. It is a thing. I promise. Just because I like dogs and Hitler liked dogs doesn't mean that I support genocide. You can have commonalities with dispicible people but not believe in the thing that makes them dispicible. The world is not Black or White folks. It is shades of Grey.

What is interesting about people such as yourself is you can write that with a straight face, not see your own logical fallacies while simultaneously telling others that you are the one who is being nuanced

You know exactly what you are doing when you write this. There is zero doubt from your words today and in the past that you are a White Nationalist

You do not have the luxury of semantic tomfoolery by pretending that is not a compound phrase. They go together and are not an innocent slip of the tongue just because you can say White or Nationalist separately

You are a White Nationalist. You just made that even more abundantly clear by your attempt to unpack the phrase and neuter it

Nobody buys it except your fellow travelers

[GONYK]

They are a male supremecy group more than anything. Tell me what Black or Hispanic people are joining a white supremecy group? None maybe?

https://www.univision.com/univision-news/united-states/meet-the-hispanic-white-supremacist-in-southern-californias-alt-right-movement

LOS ANGELES, Calif. - A Hispanic immigrant who defines himself as a patriot and activist of the 'Alt-Right', a far-right movement linked to white supremacists, was the main organizer of a protest against undocumented immigrants that took place Sunday in southern California.

Juan Cadavid, alias 'Johnny Benitez,' has been a member of a group that has participated in violent clashes against opponents of President Donald Trump.

He is 29 years old and originally from Colombia, and was brought to the United States by his parents when he was two years old, Cadavid told Univision News.

"I arrived as a baby, in the late 1980s, my family came with a work visa and had to go through a long process to sort out their papers, but we arrived legally," said Cadavid, who lives in Orange County.

On social networks, where he identifies himself as 'Johnny Benitez', he upholds the anti-immigrant policies of the Trump administration, such as deporting all undocumented people, closing doors to refugees and building a border wall.

A 'Proud Boy'
Cadavid acknowledged having been a member of 'Proud Boys', an organization with a supremacist ideology that has staged violent clashes with opponents of Trump.

"I am no longer a 'Proud Boys', but that group is not racist, neither are 'Alt Knights' nor other groups. They are just defenders of white people, but they are not against people of color," he added.

The 'Alt-Right' movement believes that the white race is under attack by multicultural forces, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), an organization that studies U.S. hate groups. Its members, according to the SPLC, are characterized by use of cyber bullying and memes spread via social networks to attack liberal groups they call 'Antifas,' (anti-fascists.)

Exactly what I said

Everything you've said seems to belie you don't know or don't want to acknowledge what white nationalism is.

[Polk377]

".......... but I have a black friend .........."

To remain a Trump supporter you have two choices:

(a) Be honest about your support of White Supremacy or

(b) be dishonest and sweep it under the rug

Trump eliminated all other variables at the debate

Polk is just dishonest. They actively support White Nationalism

You can be White (someone who is Caucasian) and a Nationalist (someone who supports the interest of their own nation above other nations) without being a racist. It is a thing. I promise. Just because I like dogs and Hitler liked dogs doesn't mean that I support genocide. You can have commonalities with dispicible people but not believe in the thing that makes them dispicible. The world is not Black or White folks. It is shades of Grey.

where to start with unpacking this

the white nationalism is literally the thing that makes them despicable. that's the ideology. it's not the dog liking. it's the white nationalism

I just broke down what being white and a nationalist means. It means someone who is white and puts the success and well-being of America first above all other nations. You know, the thing people used to call being Patriotic before all of this Anti-American propoganda. If a black person believes the same thing are they a white nationalist or a black nationalist? It doesn't mean only the success of white people. It means the success of the country and it's legal citizens first.

If you think being proud of being American and wanting us to be a successful country is a bad thing then please by all means move and find somewhere better.

[Polk377]

https://www.univision.com/univision-news/united-states/meet-the-hispanic-white-supremacist-in-southern-californias-alt-right-movement

Exactly what I said

Everything you've said seems to belie you don't know or don't want to acknowledge what white nationalism is.

You are all mistaking Nationalism for Supremecy. The 2 don't have the same meaning and never have.

[DOT]

[GONYK]

Exactly what I said

Everything you've said seems to belie you don't know or don't want to acknowledge what white nationalism is.

You are all mistaking Nationalism for Supremecy. The 2 don't have the same meaning and never have.

That's not true at all. It's you who is mistaken.

White nationalism is the belief that white people are a race and seeks maintain white racial national identity with the eventual goal of a white ethnostate.

That is how the FBI counterterrorism defines the term, along with every civil rights group.

Burying your head in the sand and conflating that with patriotism is an extremely curious choice.

Are people who want racial equality not patriotic?

[Polk377]

When Socialists/Communists are trying to tear your house up from within and build a shanty then you do what it takes to protect it.....

[robillionaire]

You can be White (someone who is Caucasian) and a Nationalist (someone who supports the interest of their own nation above other nations) without being a racist. It is a thing. I promise. Just because I like dogs and Hitler liked dogs doesn't mean that I support genocide. You can have commonalities with dispicible people but not believe in the thing that makes them dispicible. The world is not Black or White folks. It is shades of Grey.

where to start with unpacking this

the white nationalism is literally the thing that makes them despicable. that's the ideology. it's not the dog liking. it's the white nationalism

I just broke down what being white and a nationalist means. It means someone who is white and puts the success and well-being of America first above all other nations. You know, the thing people used to call being Patriotic before all of this Anti-American propoganda. If a black person believes the same thing are they a white nationalist or a black nationalist? It doesn't mean only the success of white people. It means the success of the country and it's legal citizens first.

If you think being proud of being American and wanting us to be a successful country is a bad thing then please by all means move and find somewhere better.

there is a notable difference between patriotism and nationalism, it's not the same thing, nobody is saying not to love your country but this nationalism/jingoism is historically the dangerous ideology that when left unchecked allows fascism to arise and that's what we are witnessing from self-described nationalist donald trump and it just so happens that the national identity put forward by these so-called nationalists is largely centered around the concept of whiteness as well as christianity and the other-ing of the rest of us, despite the denial to the contrary and dancing around it with dog whistles. this is blood and soil all over again but you all can dress it up however you want or try to claim it's just benign patriotism but it's pretty transparent

[Clyde_Style]

Everything you've said seems to belie you don't know or don't want to acknowledge what white nationalism is.

You are all mistaking Nationalism for Supremecy. The 2 don't have the same meaning and never have.

That's not true at all. It's you who is mistaken.

White nationalism is the belief that white people are a race and seeks maintain white racial national identity with the eventual goal of a white ethnostate.

That is how the FBI counterterrorism defines the term, along with every civil rights group.

Burying your head in the sand and conflating that with patriotism is an extremely curious choice.

Are people who want racial equality not patriotic?

My definition of Americanism is built on a commitment to the Constitution which remains a pretty damn good construct for running an equitable society. That it was designed over two centuries ago by people still in an era where slavery was commonplace is quite remarkable considering how modern most of it remains in actual function and applicability. It just took time for America to catch up to the principles embedded with the constitution and we're still catching up.

Trump has made it very clear he has no interest in constitutional democracy.

Anyone who is unwilling to connect the dots between disavowing peaceful protest and fair elections with authoritarianism is dishonest so when such a person says they are not racist they are just flat out lying. You cannot support Trump and his disrespect for actual American values as defined by the Bill of Rights and Constitutional law without also supporting his racialized agenda of promoting statism for whites.

A nationalist who defines Americanism by racial terms is a threat to our democracy as are all of his followers who promote White Nationalism.

Every soldier and member of congress makes a vow to defend the constitution against enemies within and without America. Trump mocks that oath with every fiber in his being, thus every one of his cult members are in reality anti-patriotic and only want THEIR VERSION OF AMERICA which does not include constitutional democracy.