E-Balla wrote:Joey Wheeler wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
They're bullying everybody with their front court. The league's been getting smaller in the years since Shaq stopped being a threat. They Lakers may be about to make bigger guys back in demand again. At the very least, every team that wants to be a contender is going to have to ask themselves how they can cope with the Lakers' power game.
So you think the way to counter the Lakers is to put big bodies on the floor like teams did to contain Shaq?
I completely disagree with this, going big will be futile unless teams can clone Anthony Davis. The Lakers can field a really big team because of what Lebron and AD bring, especially the latter. AD is a center and a wing at the same time: on offense, he's the best off ball player we've seen and can get his points without really stepping on the impact of perimeter players, but he can also do a Kevin Durant impersonation and just drill contested midrange shots all day. On defense, well he's the best and most versatile defender I've ever seen: we often talk about players "being able to guard 1 to 5", with AD this is actually true, he can actually guard both Jokic and James Harden; in fact in the Rockets series he was the only guy the Lakers trusted to guard Harden with no help. This versatility is what allows the Lakers to do everything they do on defense; you can either play Davis as your primary rim protector or have him guard on the perimeter and act as a secondary rim protector, this allows you of course to add extra size to your lineup. Someone like current Dwight Howard would be completely unplayable in any other strong playoff team: he can't be the main big for a team and 2-big lineups tend to sacrifice far too much athleticism/shooting/spacing/court coverage/etc... But with Davis on the floor you can actually field an extra big and not sacrifice any of that.
Then there's Lebron: he's a point guard in the body of a center, he can protect the rim... you pair with AD and the Lakers basically don't have a small ball lineup. There's no "small ball" with Lebron and AD: the Lakers have a big physical lineup and a bigger even more physical lineup. Usually teams have to choose between size and skill, but with Lebron and AD on the roster the Lakers can field huge lineups without sacrificing skill; they can field 2-big lineups and have no issues chasing guys like Harden or Murray around the perimeter.
In short, the Lakers can field 2-big lineups because they have Anthony Davis and they can put massive lineups on the floor because of Lebron and AD. Unless teams can clone AD, going big for the sake of it won't help, big stiffs will be abused by Lebron and AD. AD is not Shaq, if you put a big stiff on him, he will take him to the perimeter and abuse him and he'll make his free throws; Lebron will mercilessly hunt him on switches as well.
Now, if you're planning to challenge the Lakers, you're going to need size to do it, we agree on that. But I don't think that means bigs that weren't in demand previously will now suddenly be; the kind of size you need is size accompanied by excellent skill. If you can't find a way to go big without sacrificing skill like the Lakers, you're better off trying to win in a shootout rather than playing stiffs in a futile attempt to match the Lakers frontcourt.
But there's other bigs that can't be ran off the floor too. Embiid on a team with a coach/GM smart enough to realize you need 3 wings next to Simmons and Embiid would be able to have a similar impact. Bam can be great at it if Miami had literally any other big man that could possibly play big or was good (but instead they got Kelly). KAT is a terrible defender overall but he's actually solid on the perimeter. Next to someone similar to Clint Capela or Mitch he could be good. KP if there was someone like Tristan Thompson maybe they'd be able to hang.
Like Doc said teams need to remember to still have the ability to go big. You can sit Capela/TT if you need to have 5 shooters on offense like LA does with Dwight but it seems like every team with a switchable big uses that as an excuse to have no other serviceable big on the roster. Minny only has Dieng on the roster with KAT and he doesn't play much with KAT at all because he's not good enough to cover KAT's terrible interior defense. The Lakers still got Javale and Dwight to go next to AD, making sure he could go full games without playing a minute at C if needed. Can't say the same for any other great switchable bigs.
What makes AD game-changing isn't that he can't be run off the floor, but that he can basically operate both as a center-sized wing or a wing-skilled center. This allows the Lakers to play someone like Howard extended minutes and also to "go small" while in effect remaining big (you're never really actually going small when you have Lebron and AD on the court).
Someone like Embiid can't be played off the floor, but you can't pair him up with another center/rim protecting without seriously sacrificing spacing/shooting/ball handling; and even defensively you don't really want to pull Embiid away from the rim if you can help it. AD allows you to go big without actually going big (ie while maintaining the skill and shooting of a small team) and to go small without actually going small (you're not small if Lebron and AD are sharing the court). No other big can achieve this, no one else has AD's incredible combination of off ball prowess and shooting on offense + ability to easily guard 1-5 on defense. Can any other center in the league guard James Harden for instance? I don't think so.
Doctor MJ wrote:Joey Wheeler wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
They're bullying everybody with their front court. The league's been getting smaller in the years since Shaq stopped being a threat. They Lakers may be about to make bigger guys back in demand again. At the very least, every team that wants to be a contender is going to have to ask themselves how they can cope with the Lakers' power game.
So you think the way to counter the Lakers is to put big bodies on the floor like teams did to contain Shaq?
I completely disagree with this, going big will be futile unless teams can clone Anthony Davis. The Lakers can field a really big team because of what Lebron and AD bring, especially the latter. AD is a center and a wing at the same time: on offense, he's the best off ball player we've seen and can get his points without really stepping on the impact of perimeter players, but he can also do a Kevin Durant impersonation and just drill contested midrange shots all day. On defense, well he's the best and most versatile defender I've ever seen: we often talk about players "being able to guard 1 to 5", with AD this is actually true, he can actually guard both Jokic and James Harden; in fact in the Rockets series he was the only guy the Lakers trusted to guard Harden with no help. This versatility is what allows the Lakers to do everything they do on defense; you can either play Davis as your primary rim protector or have him guard on the perimeter and act as a secondary rim protector, this allows you of course to add extra size to your lineup. Someone like current Dwight Howard would be completely unplayable in any other strong playoff team: he can't be the main big for a team and 2-big lineups tend to sacrifice far too much athleticism/shooting/spacing/court coverage/etc... But with Davis on the floor you can actually field an extra big and not sacrifice any of that.
Then there's Lebron: he's a point guard in the body of a center, he can protect the rim... you pair with AD and the Lakers basically don't have a small ball lineup. There's no "small ball" with Lebron and AD: the Lakers have a big physical lineup and a bigger even more physical lineup. Usually teams have to choose between size and skill, but with Lebron and AD on the roster the Lakers can field huge lineups without sacrificing skill; they can field 2-big lineups and have no issues chasing guys like Harden or Murray around the perimeter.
In short, the Lakers can field 2-big lineups because they have Anthony Davis and they can put massive lineups on the floor because of Lebron and AD. Unless teams can clone AD, going big for the sake of it won't help, big stiffs will be abused by Lebron and AD. AD is not Shaq, if you put a big stiff on him, he will take him to the perimeter and abuse him and he'll make his free throws; Lebron will mercilessly hunt him on switches as well.
Now, if you're planning to challenge the Lakers, you're going to need size to do it, we agree on that. But I don't think that means bigs that weren't in demand previously will now suddenly be; the kind of size you need is size accompanied by excellent skill. If you can't find a way to go big without sacrificing skill like the Lakers, you're better off trying to win in a shootout rather than playing stiffs in a futile attempt to match the Lakers frontcourt.
I'm not giving my opinion about what teams should do, I'm saying what they may do.
The obvious approach to battling size is with size. Teams will consider it. I don't be surprised if a contender ends up trading for Joel Embiid with this in mind.
You're quite correct that another approach to emphasize the contrast and hope you get more from the mismatch than they do.
Either way I'd emphasize that teams adjusting to Shaq didn't stop Shaq from winning...which is precisely why he defined the era as he did.
Re: you need size with skill. Always, but there's a question of what your priority is, and perhaps more important than the literal matchups is the perception of "the ideal". The ideal basketball player and strategy has varied a lot in the past century, and I'm saying that seeing a team win with "smashmouth" play will likely move the NBA in more of a smashmouth direction.
Embiid would be a sought after player regardless; there's no scenario where teams aren't doing everything they can to get Embiid if he's available for a trade. I don't think the Lakers success has any impact on that at all; unless you have AD already, you'd love to have Embiid as your primary big.
A revolution would be if a contender traded for Embiid (or the Sixers built a team) and not played him as the biggest man on the lineup ie pairing him up with another big man. Don't see this as a viable strategy.
The Lakers aren't dominating because of size alone, but because they can put up massive size on the floor while not sacrificing skill.
I'm not quite clear on what you're suggesting btw: in this post, you said a contender might decide to trade for and presumably build around Joel Embiid. I agree with this and it's a good idea, not because of his size alone but because he's one of the most talented players in the world. But in the first post, you seemed to imply big might be "back in demand" again, seemed to suggest teams might add just big bodies to their roster to counter the Lakers, this I see as a complete waste of time. Getting a big stiff or two to get six fouls and put Shaq on the line was actually a viable strategy, but AD is a great free throw shooter + he's a center wing, if he's giving up size to his defender he'll just kill him on the perimeter.
