chefo wrote:Ben Wilson25 wrote:chefo wrote:
If that's directed at me, I grew up in 'developed democratic socialism'. For me socialism is not just a pretty theory, my family had to live it for decades. The very early militant 'communists' threw my grandpa in a concentration camp just because he was college educated... can't have educated non-indoctrinated people running their mouths. They also nationalized (stole) everything my family had, under the barrel of a gun, on both sides of my family. Then I had to live through the decade of depression after socialism collapsed my country's economy. By the way, we also built a wall (as well as mine fields)... to keep people in.
Most people's imaginations are not big enough to even believe some of the absurdities socialism brought about in Eastern Europe over its 45 year trial run.
And communism is just an extreme version of socialism, where there is NO private property allowed. Even the Soviet communists went away from that extreme after it starved their country. Fascism, in its implementation, was not that far off from authoritarian socialism either. The only difference is fascists allowed private profits, albeit under government directives. Fascists and Nazis were also nationalist, where Soviet-style socialists and communist are by definition internationalists.
Anyways, we're not changing each others' views on a random ball forum online. Anybody should be free to believe whatever they feel like, so long as it's not hurting others.
To each their own.
It wasn’t directed at you, just an observation about these types of discussions. I don’t think the majority of conservatives OR liberals could give you an accurate definition of socialism and studies have borne that out. I just think nuance is completely absent from current discourse and there is definitely a reflex in certain quarters of the right to throw out socialism without either acknowledging the difference between pure socialism and democratic socialism or that no mainstream democratic politician that I’m aware of is anywhere near advocating pure socialism.
About the lack if discourse-- I agree. It kills me, personally, that people refuse to listen to each other.
On the nuances, I honestly tried to figure out what putting 'democratic' in front of everything changes. It still talks of state control of resources, and I don't know how 'democratic' changes that. I'm open to suggestions, but I read the entire platform, and listened to Bernie quite a bit (BTW, he is less extreme that the platform, as written) and I still can't figure out how one gets to the end point without forceful seizure or destruction of private property, which so long as there is a Constitution in the US, would be deemed illegal and immoral.
BTW, this comes from somebody who can live with single payer healthcare, even if it's not my first choice, so long as it is not half-assed, like the current system which somehow manages to get the worst of both monopolistic capitalism and socialism in a single system.
Well, this is kind of what I’m talking about with nuance. You’re spouting the US Socialist Party platform and somehow conflating it with the Democratic Party platform which is radically different.