OT: COVID-19 thread #3

[Dresden]

And it looks like they still don't get the message:

"A senior Trump administration official on Friday said masks will not be required in the White House, even after President Donald Trump was diagnosed with COVID-19, the Associated Press reported.

The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told AP that face coverings are "a personal choice."

The White House did not offer a comment when contacted by Insider.

There's a wide body of evidence that masks play a crucial role in preventing the spread of COVID-19, and top public health experts have been urging Americans to wear them for months. "

That's just asking for it.

[PlayerUp]

Is the "far left" really so scary? Are ideas like instituting a health system where everyone has access to care so terrible? Where the tax code gets restructured so the wealthiest 1% don't own 50% of the wealth in the country? Or where we shift the economy away from depending so heavily on fossil fuels, which we all know are limited, and are destroying the planet, to something more sustainable? Because that's what "the far left" is really pushing for. That and an end to discrimination in all it's forms.

Depends what subject you're talking about here. The ones you mentioned above are ones that most of the nation supports under gradual not radical changes. It's the 1st thing you learn in psychology 101 is people don't like change. If change is to happen, you have to meet in the middle and both parties have to say positive things about it to their voter base to ease their minds and basically say everything is going to be okay. This is in my opinion the #1 thing Trump did wrong from day #1 is trying to please his voter base instead of finding a way to meet in the middle bring the other party together to work with him. If Trump had did that, the moderate left would not be speaking negatively about him constantly as they do today. If Biden wins and leans far left instead of coming to terms with the right, expect constant negativity from the right and them refusing to work with the democratic party as the democrats are doing today.

For the far left, they aren't on the same page with the more moderate leaning left. Bidens healthcare proposals are basically to pick up where Obama left off not medicare for all, Bidens climate change proposal is a watered down version of the green new deal, they want open borders where Bidens wants things to stay as they were, they want to terrorize the streets and riot, they want to attack those against them, free healthcare for all is fine but not at the expense of the average citizen living paycheck to paycheck and the list goes on. They prefer to tear down the current system if they could.

[coldfish]

The scare-tactic idea of America becoming ‘socialist’ is comical. There’s 1 Bernie, a few AOC-esque House members, and otherwise a government comprised if wealthy corporatists. Any lofty plan to tax the rich by a socialist leader would be overturned by Congress and lobbyists.

In the rare case this ever did happen and radical changes are made, it would lead to a political civil war. It's good that the bulk of us here are at least not for this radical far left movement and hopefully we can find a way to meet in the middle and bring this country back together in the months to come.

Is the "far left" really so scary? Are ideas like instituting a health system where everyone has access to care so terrible? Where the tax code gets restructured so the wealthiest 1% don't own 50% of the wealth in the country? Or where we shift the economy away from depending so heavily on fossil fuels, which we all know are limited, and are destroying the planet, to something more sustainable? Because that's what "the far left" is really pushing for. That and an end to discrimination in all it's forms.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Far left socialism has been tried, with the best of intentions, many times. It invariably works out the same. First there is a nice surge as society consumes its savings and stored capital. Then productivity falls, the people in charge run things into the ground and then the middle class gets crushed. In Venezuela its called the Maduro diet.

Society has proven over and over that the right economic system is a free market capitalist one with appropriate regulation and a reasonable social safety net. We can debate all day as to what amount of regulation is appropriate, how big the social safety net should be and what exactly constitutes a "free market" but that has to be the basis of an economy.

When you get into the far left, there are people who actively want to tear down the whole thing. They hate the very concept of profit, economic choice, etc. Those people are just as dangerous as the far right. Hell, probably more so because their sales pitch is much more alluring to the common man.

[Ice Man]

When you get into the far left, there are people who actively want to tear down the whole thing. They hate the very concept of profit, economic choice, etc. Those people are just as dangerous as the far right. Hell, probably more so because their sales pitch is much more alluring to the common man.

What do you define as the "far right"? Clearly not Trumpism since it won the Presidency, and therefore is obviously more alluring to the common man than is anti-capitalism.

[coldfish]

When you get into the far left, there are people who actively want to tear down the whole thing. They hate the very concept of profit, economic choice, etc. Those people are just as dangerous as the far right. Hell, probably more so because their sales pitch is much more alluring to the common man.

What do you define as the "far right"? Clearly not Trumpism since it won the Presidency, and therefore is obviously more alluring to the common man than is anti-capitalism.

I'm not even sure what Trump is other than a salesman. I suppose there are two forms of the far right. The libertarian ideologues that want to destroy all safety nets, regulations, etc. and the authoritarian right wing dictators who just want control. I suppose when I think about it, Trump really is in the ballpark of the authoritarians.

Touche' Ice Man.

[Ice Man]

I'm not even sure what Trump is other than a salesman. I suppose there are two forms of the far right. The libertarian ideologues that want to destroy all safety nets, regulations, etc. and the authoritarian right wing dictators who just want control. I suppose when I think about it, Trump really is in the ballpark of the authoritarians.

Thanks for the response. Now that I think of it (which I hadn't done when I wrote my email), I would categorize the far right somewhat differently. I also have two categories, one being libertarians as you describe, but the wing other being theocrats. Those would both seem to consistently belong to the right, whereas authoritarians can come from the left as well.

As for Trump, he is all three. Clearly authoritarian, while appealing to both libertarians and theocrats, although he is very watered-down version of each of those attributes.

[Dresden]

Is the "far left" really so scary? Are ideas like instituting a health system where everyone has access to care so terrible? Where the tax code gets restructured so the wealthiest 1% don't own 50% of the wealth in the country? Or where we shift the economy away from depending so heavily on fossil fuels, which we all know are limited, and are destroying the planet, to something more sustainable? Because that's what "the far left" is really pushing for. That and an end to discrimination in all it's forms.

Depends what subject you're talking about here. The ones you mentioned above are ones that most of the nation supports under gradual not radical changes. It's the 1st thing you learn in psychology 101 is people don't like change. If change is to happen, you have to meet in the middle and both parties have to say positive things about it to their voter base to ease their minds and basically say everything is going to be okay. This is in my opinion the #1 thing Trump did wrong from day #1 is trying to please his voter base instead of finding a way to meet in the middle bring the other party together to work with him. If Trump had did that, the moderate left would not be speaking negatively about him constantly as they do today. If Biden wins and leans far left instead of coming to terms with the right, expect constant negativity from the right and them refusing to work with the democratic party as the democrats are doing today.

For the far left, they aren't on the same page with the more moderate leaning left. Bidens healthcare proposals are basically to pick up where Obama left off not medicare for all, Bidens climate change proposal is a watered down version of the green new deal, they want open borders where Bidens wants things to stay as they were, they want to terrorize the streets and riot, they want to attack those against them, free healthcare for all is fine but not at the expense of the average citizen living paycheck to paycheck and the list goes on. They prefer to tear down the current system if they could.

What you are talking about is a very, very small minority. It's basically what Trump and the GOP want people to think that democrats stand for. It's a gross mischaracterization. Hardly anyone thinks open borders are a good thing, for instance. Hardly anyone. That's just a scare tactic, plain and simple. Same with "terrorize the streets and riot"- yes there was some of that after George Floyd, people want change. It doesn't mean that is something they want to be doing- it's something they felt they had to do to make some long needed changes. I don't think anyone thinks that some changes are needed in how the police are treating minorities. As for "free healthcare"- many studies have shown that universal health coverage will save money in the long run (and even in the short run), not make it more expensive.

[Dresden]

In the rare case this ever did happen and radical changes are made, it would lead to a political civil war. It's good that the bulk of us here are at least not for this radical far left movement and hopefully we can find a way to meet in the middle and bring this country back together in the months to come.

Is the "far left" really so scary? Are ideas like instituting a health system where everyone has access to care so terrible? Where the tax code gets restructured so the wealthiest 1% don't own 50% of the wealth in the country? Or where we shift the economy away from depending so heavily on fossil fuels, which we all know are limited, and are destroying the planet, to something more sustainable? Because that's what "the far left" is really pushing for. That and an end to discrimination in all it's forms.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Far left socialism has been tried, with the best of intentions, many times. It invariably works out the same. First there is a nice surge as society consumes its savings and stored capital. Then productivity falls, the people in charge run things into the ground and then the middle class gets crushed. In Venezuela its called the Maduro diet.

Society has proven over and over that the right economic system is a free market capitalist one with appropriate regulation and a reasonable social safety net. We can debate all day as to what amount of regulation is appropriate, how big the social safety net should be and what exactly constitutes a "free market" but that has to be the basis of an economy.

When you get into the far left, there are people who actively want to tear down the whole thing. They hate the very concept of profit, economic choice, etc. Those people are just as dangerous as the far right. Hell, probably more so because their sales pitch is much more alluring to the common man.

None of those ideas I mentioned above are incompatible with free market capitalism. Universal health care, a more progressive system of taxation, a greener economy- all are now more or less in place in many capitalist societies. Once again, any hint of change gets conflated into "far left socialism". No one is advocating for govt to nationalize industry, or put an end to private property.

[Dresden]

Cam Newton has Covid, Pats-Chief game postponed....

[Dresden]

Trump is said to be doing very well, which is good news. I hope he fully recovers, and has a change of heart and initiates a much more hearty federal response to the pandemic. And then gets beaten soundly at the polls....

[Ice Man]

No one is advocating for govt to nationalize industry

The irony, of course, is that between instituting tariffs and browbeating companies, Trump's executive branch has meddled more heavily with private enterprises than did Obama's administration.

[coldfish]

I'm not even sure what Trump is other than a salesman. I suppose there are two forms of the far right. The libertarian ideologues that want to destroy all safety nets, regulations, etc. and the authoritarian right wing dictators who just want control. I suppose when I think about it, Trump really is in the ballpark of the authoritarians.

Thanks for the response. Now that I think of it (which I hadn't done when I wrote my email), I would categorize the far right somewhat differently. I also have two categories, one being libertarians as you describe, but the wing other being theocrats. Those would both seem to consistently belong to the right, whereas authoritarians can come from the left as well.

As for Trump, he is all three. Clearly authoritarian, while appealing to both libertarians and theocrats, although he is very watered-down version of each of those attributes.

It took me a long time to figure out. Too long. Regardless, the pattern should have been clear with Trump in 2016. Whatever audience he was talking to, he made them promises. He turned himself into a right wing rorschach test so that anyone could see what they wanted to see.

[dougthonus]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Far left socialism has been tried, with the best of intentions, many times. It invariably works out the same. First there is a nice surge as society consumes its savings and stored capital. Then productivity falls, the people in charge run things into the ground and then the middle class gets crushed. In Venezuela its called the Maduro diet.

Society has proven over and over that the right economic system is a free market capitalist one with appropriate regulation and a reasonable social safety net. We can debate all day as to what amount of regulation is appropriate, how big the social safety net should be and what exactly constitutes a "free market" but that has to be the basis of an economy.

When you get into the far left, there are people who actively want to tear down the whole thing. They hate the very concept of profit, economic choice, etc. Those people are just as dangerous as the far right. Hell, probably more so because their sales pitch is much more alluring to the common man.

I think most people are for a meritocracy where hard work and talent pay off. Our society has steadily moved away from meritocracy that rewards talent/work and towards one where the only merit is already possessing wealth. Wealth generates more wealth dramatically easier than labor generates wealth, our tax code even taxes labor twice as hard as capital when you get towards high levels of earnings.

I don't know what the good solution is, but if AI pans out (and there's no reason to think it won't in the next 30 years) then we're on the cusp of unprecedented problems with our economic system. The distribution of wealth in our country never recovered from the fall out of the physical labor market as automation took away all the good paying blue collar jobs. When AI comes and takes all the white collar jobs (or enough of them to push the value of the remaining ones down to near minimum wage levels just like blue collar jobs exist still but no longer pay much) then what will be left?

The world is also paved with historical examples of things that worked right until they didn't because technology made them obsolete. Our economic system is one of those things. Might sort of kind of make it in tact through the end of my work career, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it to survive my daughters. If we don't find a way to stop making the wealthy wealthier and the poor poorer then I think it will be an overall massive failure in our society.

[coldfish]

Trump is said to be doing very well, which is good news. I hope he fully recovers, and has a change of heart and initiates a much more hearty federal response to the pandemic. And then gets beaten soundly at the polls....

I posted this elsewhere:

Just to note, this is the drug the president got:

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/regenerons-regn-cov2-antibody-cocktail-reduced-viral-levels-and

The government and doctors were well aware of the results when Trump got injected.

Patients with increasingly higher baseline viral levels had correspondingly greater reductions in viral load at Day 7 with REGN-COV2 treatment. The mean log10 copies/mL reduction in viral load compared to placebo were as follows:
- Viral load higher than 105 copies/mL: high dose (-0.93); low dose (-0.86) (p=0.03 for both); approximately 50-60% reduction compared to placebo
- Viral load higher than 106 copies/mL: high dose (-1.55); low dose (-1.65) (p<0.002 for both); approximately 95% reduction compared to placebo
- Viral load higher than 107 copies/mL: high dose (-1.79); low dose (-2.00) (p<0.0015 for both); approximately 99% reduction compared to placebo

Quite frankly, those are some very good numbers there. This blows away remdesivir. After this, there is going to be a lot of pressure for an EUA.

Like . . . now.

That release just came out days ago. Its about to get a lot of press. I wish I had regeneron stock right about now.

[dougthonus]

Trump is said to be doing very well, which is good news. I hope he fully recovers, and has a change of heart and initiates a much more hearty federal response to the pandemic. And then gets beaten soundly at the polls....

I posted this elsewhere:

Just to note, this is the drug the president got:

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/regenerons-regn-cov2-antibody-cocktail-reduced-viral-levels-and

The government and doctors were well aware of the results when Trump got injected.

Patients with increasingly higher baseline viral levels had correspondingly greater reductions in viral load at Day 7 with REGN-COV2 treatment. The mean log10 copies/mL reduction in viral load compared to placebo were as follows:
- Viral load higher than 105 copies/mL: high dose (-0.93); low dose (-0.86) (p=0.03 for both); approximately 50-60% reduction compared to placebo
- Viral load higher than 106 copies/mL: high dose (-1.55); low dose (-1.65) (p<0.002 for both); approximately 95% reduction compared to placebo
- Viral load higher than 107 copies/mL: high dose (-1.79); low dose (-2.00) (p<0.0015 for both); approximately 99% reduction compared to placebo

Quite frankly, those are some very good numbers there. This blows away remdesivir. After this, there is going to be a lot of pressure for an EUA.

Like . . . now.

That release just came out days ago. Its about to get a lot of press. I wish I had regeneron stock right about now.

Their stock is 15% off its high in July, so if you think this news is going to bump it, then you still have time to get in. Either the bump from this happened long ago, it is still to come, or its not going to come at all.

[Dresden]

The distribution of wealth in our country never recovered from the fall out of the physical labor market as automation took away all the good paying blue collar jobs. When AI comes and takes all the white collar jobs (or enough of them to push the value of the remaining ones down to near minimum wage levels just like blue collar jobs exist still but no longer pay much) then what will be left?

this may be quibbling over fine points, but I think it was the decline of unionized labor that really began the shift to a more unequal society. Corporations improved their profits and stock prices by moving factories out of the northern states where unions were strong, to the south and overseas. This eliminated thousands of strong, middle class jobs, and lead to the rise of the "service economy" (people working at Walmart and McDonalds), and the decline of our manufacturing sector.

[Dresden]

Trump is said to be doing very well, which is good news. I hope he fully recovers, and has a change of heart and initiates a much more hearty federal response to the pandemic. And then gets beaten soundly at the polls....

I posted this elsewhere:

Just to note, this is the drug the president got:

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/regenerons-regn-cov2-antibody-cocktail-reduced-viral-levels-and

The government and doctors were well aware of the results when Trump got injected.

Patients with increasingly higher baseline viral levels had correspondingly greater reductions in viral load at Day 7 with REGN-COV2 treatment. The mean log10 copies/mL reduction in viral load compared to placebo were as follows:
- Viral load higher than 105 copies/mL: high dose (-0.93); low dose (-0.86) (p=0.03 for both); approximately 50-60% reduction compared to placebo
- Viral load higher than 106 copies/mL: high dose (-1.55); low dose (-1.65) (p<0.002 for both); approximately 95% reduction compared to placebo
- Viral load higher than 107 copies/mL: high dose (-1.79); low dose (-2.00) (p<0.0015 for both); approximately 99% reduction compared to placebo

Quite frankly, those are some very good numbers there. This blows away remdesivir. After this, there is going to be a lot of pressure for an EUA.

Like . . . now.

That release just came out days ago. Its about to get a lot of press. I wish I had regeneron stock right about now.

I wonder how nerve racking it is to be making decisions on the medical treatment of the president. Doctor #1: "So, you think we should try this new therapy? It's pretty unproven, but they say it works miracles". Doctor #2: "Sure, go ahead, just make sure it's your name signing off on this, and not mine"....

[dougthonus]

I wonder how nerve racking it is to be making decisions on the medical treatment of the president. Doctor #1: "So, you think we should try this new therapy? It's pretty unproven, but they say it works miracles". Doctor #2: "Sure, go ahead, just make sure it's your name signing off on this, and not mine"....

Its acting like COVID is stage 4 cancer to think this way a bit though. Odds are extremely high that if you literally picked any treatment or even no treatment at all that he'll be fine regardless. COVID is bad for how fast it spreads, but the vast majority of people, even elderly people, whom get it are fine. It's just that it spreads so fast that even a relatively small serious side effect rate is pretty disastrous.

[Dresden]

I wonder how nerve racking it is to be making decisions on the medical treatment of the president. Doctor #1: "So, you think we should try this new therapy? It's pretty unproven, but they say it works miracles". Doctor #2: "Sure, go ahead, just make sure it's your name signing off on this, and not mine"....

Its acting like COVID is stage 4 cancer to think this way a bit though. Odds are extremely high that if you literally picked any treatment or even no treatment at all that he'll be fine regardless. COVID is bad for how fast it spreads, but the vast majority of people, even elderly people, whom get it are fine. It's just that it spreads so fast that even a relatively small serious side effect rate is pretty disastrous.

All the more reason why giving a new, relatively unproven treatment to the POTUS might be a bit stress inducing. If the odds are extremely high he'll get better anyway, why try something cutting edge on him? And by the way, for people over 80, the odds of dying are around 20% (or were at one time, that might have come down some). I know Trump is only 74, but he's also obese and has who knows what other preconditions. And he is the POTUS, so God forbid he should have a bad outcome, a lot of questions would be asked about how he was treated and why.

[Jimako10]

I wonder how nerve racking it is to be making decisions on the medical treatment of the president. Doctor #1: "So, you think we should try this new therapy? It's pretty unproven, but they say it works miracles". Doctor #2: "Sure, go ahead, just make sure it's your name signing off on this, and not mine"....

Its acting like COVID is stage 4 cancer to think this way a bit though. Odds are extremely high that if you literally picked any treatment or even no treatment at all that he'll be fine regardless. COVID is bad for how fast it spreads, but the vast majority of people, even elderly people, whom get it are fine. It's just that it spreads so fast that even a relatively small serious side effect rate is pretty disastrous.

All the more reason why giving a new, relatively unproven treatment to the POTUS might be a bit stress inducing. If the odds are extremely high he'll get better anyway, why try something cutting edge on him? And by the way, for people over 80, the odds of dying are around 20% (or were at one time, that might have come down some). I know Trump is only 74, but he's also obese and has who knows what other preconditions. And he is the POTUS, so God forbid he should have a bad outcome, a lot of questions would be asked about how he was treated and why.

In this case, antibody treatment is pretty safe. At worst, you get an allergic reaction to it within a few hours, but that clearly has passed in Trump's case. The only question with antibody treatment really is in its effectiveness.