The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 7)

[KTM_2813]

Another thing I realized last night:

LeBron has demonstrated, yet again, that he is more than capable/willing to play away from the ball as necessary. The Lakers realized that their best chance against the zone was to get LeBron the ball in the middle or along the baseline, so they let Rondo run the offense while LeBron moved into open spots. In addition to all of the other dumb criticisms that he has slayed this year, add "He forces you to run LeBron Ball" to the list.

[JulesWinnfield]

Maybe this isn’t a post for the Lebron thread, but I’m gonna place it here anyway, and let me preface it by saying Anthony Davis is one of the greatest basketball talents I’ve ever seen and is an amazing basketball player, so this isn’t a knock on him.

But what do we do with the legacy of Anthony Davis and how it figures to be shaped going forward? He is existing in this bizarre space where he’s getting all the credit for helping to lead championship level team success, without the accompanying side jabs guys have gotten before him by teaming up to do it. Like, the guy won 1 playoff series in his career and joined forces with Lebron, the arguable GOAT, and is on the verge of a dominant title run. Is he going to face a Kobe post-Shaq level microscope in the inevitable post Lebron years? Is it going to be a necessity legacy wise for him to be seen in that truly historic tier to have high level team success post Lebron prime?

[limbo]

Durant joined a 73-win dynasty, won two titles, and everyone instantly got amnesia and forgot about all his previous Playoff failures, including losing a 3-1 lead in the WCF, getting locked up by Tony Allen and losing in the Finals in 2012...

Not only that, but after 2018, a significant amount of people were starting to crown Durant as the best player in the World on the basis of two back-to-back titles and FMVP's... At the very least he was firmly the 2nd best player after LeBron, despite no statistical/analytical based arguments supporting him being even a superior player to Curry and maybe a couple of other players as well.

So, no... It's not a necessity for AD's legacy to win titles post LeBron prime... He can win like two titles together with LeBron and he will be cemented among the best PF's in NBA history... Heck, even with only this one title this year and a decently strong prime i think a lot of people will put him over Barkley and Malone.

I imagine Durant will be put in most people's Top 30 GOAT list too, maybe even as high as Top 20, and i don't think he's ever going to win another title again, might not come close even, depending on how he comes back.

The only people who care about stuff like this are the 1% of basketball nerds who like comparing every detail of a player's NBA career. Guys who will be participating in the RealGM Top 100 list will care if AD can display a high level of team success independent of LeBron or not. The rest of the NBA followers won't.

[thebigbird]

Lebron is only 210 rebounds from passing Shaq for 4th place on the all-time playoff rebounds list. 183 boards from passing Kareem for 5th. That’s very obtainable. Hes at 177 rebounds this postseason in 17 games. If he passes Shaq, only Duncan, Wilt, and Russell would be ahead of him. He's 3 assists from passing Stockton for 2nd in playoff assists. His numbers at the end of his career are going to be ridiculous.

[Lakers LeBron]

Just watched the highlights and these are my thoughts:

1. Does this Lakers team really need to retool at all? More shooting is always good but looking at how unstoppable they are when locked in, is there really any shooter you'd risk hurting this team's chemistry for?
Provided noone declines rapidly due to being a year older, I can't see any team that beats these guys led by Lebron and AD 4 times. It's got nothing to do with the Heat being outmatched. The Heat players did the best they could and tried to make great plays, but the Lakers just looked on another level, and I think that would've happened regardless of who the opponent was.

You really want a 36-year-old Lebron as a full-time PG with no viable 3rd scorer? Why? I can't believe people actually think this is good long term strategy. This team can get so much better offensively just by simply adding an actual PG.

I swear, I'm the only person who doesn't like Point-Bron. Limited offensive team who gets by because of dominant defense only works to this level cause AD and Lebron are explosive high volume-high, high-effienct scorers. But Lebron had trouble maintaing that level of shooting effeicency in the regular season for a reason. He should problems finishing in traffic at times. Had some real issues scoring against teams with multiple long-athletic wings. Like, the only rim protection LAL has seen this postseason was against an 8-seed that was terrible defensively everywhere else.

As a fan I think its crazy to want Lebron to continue in this role. The easiest way to preserve Lebron as he ages is the ease his burden as either a scorer or playmaker. This current roster does neither. Go get Schoeder from OKC and Lebron will sleepwalk to 24ppg 60ts% next year.

I think you're right that having a real point guard would make life easier for LeBron as we can see right now how much Rondo stepping up as a player in the playoffs helps. During the regular season I assumed that LBJ would be playing 40+ minutes in the playoffs because the offense would fall apart without him; instead LeBron is cruising around 35 mpg and the team never gets killed during the non-LeBron minutes

Whenever the next regular season starts and Rondo is back to holding the ball and doing nothing for 10 seconds at a time, the lack of a second playmaker is going to be an issue again

[kayess]

Read on Twitter

Jesus, don't tell me... That 1 loss is Game of the 2018 Finals isn't it??

[MisterHibachi]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe30004764/nba-finals-how-lebron-james-anthony-davis-lakers-smothering-opponents

He heard the noise about how other superstars had passed him; LeBron finished third in ESPN's annual NBArank, behind Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antetokounmpo. LeBron sensed that those anointing usurpers were zeroing in on his defense to prove their case. "As a competitor at LeBron's level, it matters to you when there is a sentiment that there was a lack of effort on either side of the ball," said Rich Paul, LeBron's agent and CEO of Klutch Sports Group. "And given all he's accomplished, the willingness and motivation to come into this year with that mindset and then actually do it shows a lot about his character and respect for the game."

Davis played a role on multiple levels. Teammates were taken aback at first to hear Davis pointing out LeBron's mistakes in practices, urging him to get it right next time.

"There were a couple of instances when they had a little back and forth," Vogel said. "'That's on you. Don't try to deflect. That's your rotation.' And LeBron would accept it." Davis and James are friends, and share an agent -- Paul.

As the season progressed, LeBron brainstormed small adjustments -- tweaks to the blueprint. At one point, he suggested changing the team's weak-side coverages on the pick-and-roll to have help defenders stay closer to corner shooters -- instead of rotating to the wing if the first pass went there, Vogel said.

[Baski]

Just watched the highlights and these are my thoughts:

1. Does this Lakers team really need to retool at all? More shooting is always good but looking at how unstoppable they are when locked in, is there really any shooter you'd risk hurting this team's chemistry for?
Provided noone declines rapidly due to being a year older, I can't see any team that beats these guys led by Lebron and AD 4 times. It's got nothing to do with the Heat being outmatched. The Heat players did the best they could and tried to make great plays, but the Lakers just looked on another level, and I think that would've happened regardless of who the opponent was.

You really want a 36-year-old Lebron as a full-time PG with no viable 3rd scorer? Why? I can't believe people actually think this is good long term strategy. This team can get so much better offensively just by simply adding an actual PG.

I swear, I'm the only person who doesn't like Point-Bron. Limited offensive team who gets by because of dominant defense only works to this level cause AD and Lebron are explosive high volume-high, high-effienct scorers. But Lebron had trouble maintaing that level of shooting effeicency in the regular season for a reason. He should problems finishing in traffic at times. Had some real issues scoring against teams with multiple long-athletic wings. Like, the only rim protection LAL has seen this postseason was against an 8-seed that was terrible defensively everywhere else.

As a fan I think its crazy to want Lebron to continue in this role. The easiest way to preserve Lebron as he ages is the ease his burden as either a scorer or playmaker. This current roster does neither. Go get Schoeder from OKC and Lebron will sleepwalk to 24ppg 60ts% next year.

I'm looking at it from a "if it ain't broken" POV. Thing is this team seems to have found a sort of perfect synergy, especially on defense, that makes them hands down the best team in the league when they get going. Dunno if those extra 3 percentage points is worth disrupting that.
Their shooting struggles are real but as we've seen this POs, it may cost them 1 or 2 games a series but the insane all around defense can produce a fi fi fi fo run.

These are the things that are guiding my pro-LePG stance:

1. Lebron being the PG solves the problem that nearly all teams have: Their starting PG sucks on D/ can be exploited in the POs. Having lineups that allow 2 capable SG defenders alongside Lebron helps their defense a lot.
2. There isn't a PG in the league that's a better floor general than Lebron.
3. How much (or rather who) would this PG that solves their playmaking problem cost the Lakers? He's obviously not going to be a minimum contract signing. And of those who won't be lost/traded, how would this new guy affect their playing time? Does Rondo sulk and wreck team chemistry when his minutes reduce drastically? Worth considering imo

[homecourtloss]

Just watched the highlights and these are my thoughts:

1. Does this Lakers team really need to retool at all? More shooting is always good but looking at how unstoppable they are when locked in, is there really any shooter you'd risk hurting this team's chemistry for?
Provided noone declines rapidly due to being a year older, I can't see any team that beats these guys led by Lebron and AD 4 times. It's got nothing to do with the Heat being outmatched. The Heat players did the best they could and tried to make great plays, but the Lakers just looked on another level, and I think that would've happened regardless of who the opponent was.

2. Giannis is basically done winning MVPs. Is there anyone who stands in AD's way of winning it next year? I guess Luka but the Lakers will probably have the advantage in wins

3. Somewhat related to 2., AD's love of the midrange/fadeaway jumper still bothers me a lot. Feels like the imminent regression to the mean will lead to a far less impressive RS than I expect.
Not an exact comparison but I saw the same thing during Westbrook's 2017 season. The quality of his shots was as mindnumblingly terrible as ever, but they went in at a decent rate, which galvanized his resolve to just keep doing the same thing over the next 3 years. We saw how that turned out.
If AD maintains this efficiency from there though, yikes.

4. Are we watching peak Jae Crowder? Literally everything he does on the court is smart and his 3ball is water. Can anyone weigh in on his Celtics days?

5. This is gonna be a sweep

I see what you’re saying, but I’m not sure it’s that easy.

1) LeBron looks like he can be a plus player at 40 years old and is an outlying outlier . If he comes back relaxed, his shooting might be that much better and he can have the same type of impact come playoffs, but to expect another +9—+10 RPM regular season run and then playoffs leading PIPM run seems like too much to ask for. On the other hand, he hasn’t even gone into his highest gear these playoffs so who knows,

2) I honestly don’t believe AD will win multiple MVPs. Now if he continues perfect touch from contested 19 footers, then yes, but I don’t see that playing out over the course of the season.

3) Rondo has been exceptional offensively and yes there is “Playoff Rondo which I doubted,” but he’s shooting 41% on wide open threes, 50% on open threes, and every time he comes in, he’s hitting one of these and setting the table for what happens. I can’t see that happening again.

Lakers have a 120 ORtg when he’s been in court in the playoffs which is ludicrous and it’s really been the best case scenario. Lakers also have their worst DRtg with Rondo on court, but the offense is good enough to help them shrink deficits and extend leads. I don’t think we’ll ever see that again

Only thing that ever stops the Lakers is essentially trash shooting. If the opportunity cost of improving shooting is hurting team defense or chemistry then maybe you don’t look to change the roster too much.

[Cavsfansince84]

Maybe this isn’t a post for the Lebron thread, but I’m gonna place it here anyway, and let me preface it by saying Anthony Davis is one of the greatest basketball talents I’ve ever seen and is an amazing basketball player, so this isn’t a knock on him.

But what do we do with the legacy of Anthony Davis and how it figures to be shaped going forward? He is existing in this bizarre space where he’s getting all the credit for helping to lead championship level team success, without the accompanying side jabs guys have gotten before him by teaming up to do it. Like, the guy won 1 playoff series in his career and joined forces with Lebron, the arguable GOAT, and is on the verge of a dominant title run. Is he going to face a Kobe post-Shaq level microscope in the inevitable post Lebron years? Is it going to be a necessity legacy wise for him to be seen in that truly historic tier to have high level team success post Lebron prime?

He's going to have to keep it up. I don't think teaming up with LeBron in itself is a big source of criticism any more than Magic coming out to play with Kareem or Kobe forcing his way to the Lakers. At the end of the day he's playing at an extremely high level on a team that may be about to win a championship. He just needs to keep playing at a high level.

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

Jesus, don't tell me... That 1 loss is Game of the 2018 Finals isn't it??

I think the game 1 in 2018 was tied after 3 quarter.It was game 3 vs Pacers their loss...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201804200IND.html

[Heej]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe30004764/nba-finals-how-lebron-james-anthony-davis-lakers-smothering-opponents

He heard the noise about how other superstars had passed him; LeBron finished third in ESPN's annual NBArank, behind Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antetokounmpo. LeBron sensed that those anointing usurpers were zeroing in on his defense to prove their case. "As a competitor at LeBron's level, it matters to you when there is a sentiment that there was a lack of effort on either side of the ball," said Rich Paul, LeBron's agent and CEO of Klutch Sports Group. "And given all he's accomplished, the willingness and motivation to come into this year with that mindset and then actually do it shows a lot about his character and respect for the game."

Davis played a role on multiple levels. Teammates were taken aback at first to hear Davis pointing out LeBron's mistakes in practices, urging him to get it right next time.

"There were a couple of instances when they had a little back and forth," Vogel said. "'That's on you. Don't try to deflect. That's your rotation.' And LeBron would accept it." Davis and James are friends, and share an agent -- Paul.

As the season progressed, LeBron brainstormed small adjustments -- tweaks to the blueprint. At one point, he suggested changing the team's weak-side coverages on the pick-and-roll to have help defenders stay closer to corner shooters -- instead of rotating to the wing if the first pass went there, Vogel said.

What a great article. I loved Vogels last line about how they built it up throughout the season and came together way better than expected. Also, it can't be underestimated that all these teams pre-bubble had another training camp to get stuff down. I feel like that accounts for at least 50-60% of a team's evolution from their previous year. Can't underestimate the impact of that enough.

[Baski]

Maybe this isn’t a post for the Lebron thread, but I’m gonna place it here anyway, and let me preface it by saying Anthony Davis is one of the greatest basketball talents I’ve ever seen and is an amazing basketball player, so this isn’t a knock on him.

But what do we do with the legacy of Anthony Davis and how it figures to be shaped going forward? He is existing in this bizarre space where he’s getting all the credit for helping to lead championship level team success, without the accompanying side jabs guys have gotten before him by teaming up to do it. Like, the guy won 1 playoff series in his career and joined forces with Lebron, the arguable GOAT, and is on the verge of a dominant title run. Is he going to face a Kobe post-Shaq level microscope in the inevitable post Lebron years? Is it going to be a necessity legacy wise for him to be seen in that truly historic tier to have high level team success post Lebron prime?

I think most people are trying to be consistent in how they defended Lebron and other stars when they didn't have the team to get it done and later teamed up to do it. Some would find it hypocritical to not dock Lebron for the Heat days and then turn around and try to discredit AD for playing with Lebron. Personally I think there's some differentiation to be made there that justifies that "hypocrisy", but I don't think it's crazy to want to sweep his previous playoff record under the rug.

Once Lebron retires though he's definitely gonna be under the Kobe-microscope. Happened to Kyrie and Love. AD won't escape it. Depending on how old he is when Lebron retires and how AD's body holds up, zero titles post-Lebron could look bad legacy-wise for him.

[Heej]

No, he won't be criticized. This always has been about the MJ stans that fight to defend his honor. I think AD will have the LeBron Halo effect around him where anything negative he does gets pushed to the side because otherwise there's an advantage gained for LeBron. I fully believe the vocal haters are still gonna find ways to prop him up in order to vicariously discredit LeBron even after he retires. Pippen wasn't put under a microscope when MJ left, all of his achievements get magnified if anything for performing and almost making the ECF because Pippen didn't actually do enough to threaten MJs legacy.

Kobe got the microscope because he was a long-shot threat to Jordan. AD will never be considered a threat to people to the point that he needs to be cut down because the insecure stans aren't worried about him coming after their GOAT. Plus I feel like most Bron stans are gonna switch to cheering on AD for the rest of his career just cuz he's essentially one of us aka the Alpha Lebron Stan and helped our guy out at the end of his career. I don't see a Kobe microscope for him personally, no one that escapes LeBron's orbit ever gets it.

Could AD get some if the relatively docile Tim Duncan and KG fans sense him creeping up on their guy? Maybe. That's when things will get interesting. That's the one subsection of fanbases that has the potential for overwhelming toxicity. Especially the Timmy fans who have never seen anyone come close to going after his GOAT PF title. If AD wins 3 with LeBron and another one on his own after LeBron, that could be the X-factor. I just don't see it coming from the current uber-toxic fanbase of Jordanaires.

[KTM_2813]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe30004764/nba-finals-how-lebron-james-anthony-davis-lakers-smothering-opponents

He heard the noise about how other superstars had passed him; LeBron finished third in ESPN's annual NBArank, behind Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antetokounmpo. LeBron sensed that those anointing usurpers were zeroing in on his defense to prove their case. "As a competitor at LeBron's level, it matters to you when there is a sentiment that there was a lack of effort on either side of the ball," said Rich Paul, LeBron's agent and CEO of Klutch Sports Group. "And given all he's accomplished, the willingness and motivation to come into this year with that mindset and then actually do it shows a lot about his character and respect for the game."

Davis played a role on multiple levels. Teammates were taken aback at first to hear Davis pointing out LeBron's mistakes in practices, urging him to get it right next time.

"There were a couple of instances when they had a little back and forth," Vogel said. "'That's on you. Don't try to deflect. That's your rotation.' And LeBron would accept it." Davis and James are friends, and share an agent -- Paul.

As the season progressed, LeBron brainstormed small adjustments -- tweaks to the blueprint. At one point, he suggested changing the team's weak-side coverages on the pick-and-roll to have help defenders stay closer to corner shooters -- instead of rotating to the wing if the first pass went there, Vogel said.

What a great article. I loved Vogels last line about how they built it up throughout the season and came together way better than expected. Also, it can't be underestimated that all these teams pre-bubble had another training camp to get stuff down. I feel like that accounts for at least 50-60% of a team's evolution from their previous year. Can't underestimate the impact of that enough.

What's interesting is that in spite of LeBron's commitment to taking the regular season seriously, he still received almost no consideration for All-Defense, and most analysts had other guys ahead of him as the best player in the league. Now that the season is basically over, both of those omissions look a bit questionable. In some ways, I think that the media has overcompensated for how badly they based awards on reputation 10-20 years ago. No one wants to be the guy who gives a 2011 Kobe All-Defensive selection (even though I believe those were actually voted on by coaches), so LeBron has to go over and above to get the credit he deserves. Like seriously... There were level-headed, well-respected writers, like Danny LeRoux, who said LeBron didn't have an argument as a Tier 1 player in March.

[Dupp]

Read on Twitter

Jesus, don't tell me... That 1 loss is Game of the 2018 Finals isn't it??

Pretty sure the bulls never won 78 games in a season....

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

Jesus, don't tell me... That 1 loss is Game of the 2018 Finals isn't it??

Pretty sure the bulls never won 78 games in a season....

This stats includes the playoffs ... The bulls won 87 games in 1996 including the playoffs

[homecourtloss]

If you give LeBron a team that can be decent (small deficits at most like this year) without him on court, he’s pretty much invincible. It might be his age demanding he not play 42+ high intensity minutes, but he’s never been in a playoffs in which he followed regular season rotations and trusted them. Biggest test of this came in game 1 when they were down 23-10 and he trusted the rotations and sat.

Better coaching, better team defense, and post season AD (and Rondo offensively when James sits) being much better than Kyrie and Love with James off court has made all the difference.

[Homer38]

Hot at the right time!

Read on Twitter

[Dupp]

Playoff Ronda, it’s beautiful.