OT: COVID-19 Ontario 2nd Wave Thread

[mtcan]

but the thing is why is a covid death so much more significant and special than people dying from various other causes every single day?

...because it's yet another way to die that didn't exist 8 months ago? Because these people would likely still be alive if not for covid? Because 1 million families or and the people around them don't have a loved one anymore? Do I really need to spell it out? I don't know about you, but I had enough in my life to worry about rather than another reason to worry about myself and the people around me.

It really IS that simple to isolate long term care homes if you implement a proper plan. If you test health care workers who work in these homes daily or every other day or something along those lines then you will find out very quickly if they've become infected and you can remove them from the home and tell them to quarantine. If a patient in these homes becomes infected then you isolated them from other patients and give them the care that they need.

It didn't work out that way for Donald Trump despite him literally testing anyone who came close to him. We as regular people don't have that ability to test everyone around us. And aren't able to test every other day because there is huge backlog for people waiting for results as it is. I needed to wait 4 days for a result last week. Your solution is completely implausible. Once again...oversimplifying things. You really don't know what's going on out there, do you?

If you find out that outside visitors are bringing the virus into the homes then you stop the visits or at least limit the number of people to a few close family members who have to be tested and come back negative before being allowed to enter. Simple procedures like these along with having enough PPE and other resources available to those homes is enough to minimize the spread among long term care facilities again.

That is what they did and are doing...yet outbreaks are still happening. Tests are only a snapshot in time...and only good for the moment it is done. Wait for days for a result before being allowed to enter...nursing homes would have no one entering...including staff. Once again...a major backlog in testing is where your "solution" goes wrong.

Heck if you want to take really strong measures then why not simply have the workers stay longer in the home with their patients rather than going home everyday? Like have the worker stay for a week or two continuously in the home with the people they're caring for after they've tested negative for the virus and then the chances of the virus spreading becomes minimal when they're not going to and forth from home to work and in between. There was a long term care home in France where the workers isolated with their patients for like 1-2 months straight and they suffered zero virus deaths as a result because they were almost completely self-contained.

Having a nurse work longer than the 12 hour shifts he/she is already working right now? Seriously? Yes...in case you didn't know (which it looks like you don't)...nurses usually work 12 hour shifts.

Keeping nurses imprisoned in a nursing is really nice idea...in theory. In reality...did you know that there is barely any space for residents to stay? Did you know that a huge reason for spread of covid in nursing homes (see the report the army put out when they went into these nursing homes to help out)...that often times seniors are crammed up to 4 to a room. Where do you expect staff to live while they are isolating for months at a time? Nice idea...but in practice...it can't happen.

The bottom line is you don't need to shutdown society and destroy people's lives to limit the spread to vulnerable people and you'd have to be insane to think that's a viable longterm plan to keep doing so until an effective treatment is developed and becomes widely available to everyone in the world.

Hyperbolic, much? You think the only people affected by this pandemic are restaurant/bar/strip club owners? You don't think beyond their needs, clearly. It has narrowed your vision of what's really going on in the world.

You're right the majority of seniors don't live in long term care facilities and guess what? They DID NOT die by the thousands as a result of coming into contact with the outside world.

And you know that...how?

Again I'll point out that there are almost 3 million seniors in Ontario and outside of LTC facilities, only about 800-900 seniors died in the entire province OUT OF 3 MILLION. So NO people potentially bringing home the virus to grandma and grandpa DID NOT result in the death of thousands and thousands of seniors outside of LTC facilities probably because many if not most of them were at least decently healthy enough to survive getting infected unlike those that are much weaker and need to live in nursing homes that provide around the clock care.

When you're in poor enough health that you can't even cook your own meals or take a shower without help, then you're in pretty bad condition and you're likely to die by anything compared to seniors who are capable of doing those basic things. So please I wish people like you and all our experts and politicians would stop with the 'well you're going to spread it to grandparents' guilt tripping crap to keep people scared of the virus when its been shown seniors in the general population aren't dying by the tens of thousands after all these months.

It's just common sense. More virus in the community means more potential spread. More potential spread means more infection.

I don't want to see a situation like Italy/SpainNew York City in March/April where hospitals were flooded and overcapacity and people died because there simply aren't enough resources. We shouldn't wait for this to happen before we realize what measures COULD have been taken instead.

We are seeing increased numbers of hospitalizations EVERYDAY. A covid admission to hospital can occupy a hospital bed for weeks/months. Given that...isn't hard to saturate a health care system if you aren't proactive. It has happened in other parts of the world already. We don't need to see it happen here because restaurants and bars need people to eat inside.

But you don't care...right? It's all good as long as you can keep a bar/strip club open to idiots who don't see the bigger picture other than themselves and their own personal gratification.

Good on you.

[ItsDanger]

Change in hospitalizations is a lot lower than in the spring. Prudent to wait for more data. However, last peak of active cases in late April, hospitalizations were about 11:1. Currently its about 35:1. Deaths are still as low as the summer.

Its time to review the RT-PCR test methodology. Has it been the same throughout?

[mtcan]

Change in hospitalizations is a lot lower than in the spring. Prudent to wait for more data. However, last peak of active cases in late April, hospitalizations were about 11:1. Currently its about 35:1. Deaths are still as low as the summer.

Its time to review the RT-PCR test methodology. Has it been the same throughout?

We aren't as bad right now as we were at its worst in the spring with respect to hospitalizations...but is only October. We need to revisit this December/January and compare.

[hsb]

I don't want to see a situation like Italy/SpainNew York City in March/April where hospitals were flooded and overcapacity and people died because there simply aren't enough resources. We shouldn't wait for this to happen before we realize what measures COULD have been taken instead.

This is actually why I'm shocked at the government not funding another hospital in Brampton.

In Brampton, there is an average of less than one hospital bed per 1,000 residents, which continues to get even worse as 14,000 new residents move to the city every year. Brampton Civic Hospital operated beyond 100 percent capacity throughout 2019, despite standard of care guidelines to not exceed 85 percent, while Peel Memorial (which offers no in-patient care and cannot treat COVID-19 cases) started last year at 557 percent capacity, increasing to 587 in April of the same year.

https://thepointer.com/article/2020-05-23/while-city-starts-to-reopen-icu-at-brampton-civic-nearing-capacity

It's disgusting to have such little hospital care for a city that size before COVID, let alone asking them to take care of the community needs during a pandemic. They are so far away from getting their hospital needs met, this is the biggest issue in all of Ontario.

[jaymeister15]

I don't want to see a situation like Italy/SpainNew York City in March/April where hospitals were flooded and overcapacity and people died because there simply aren't enough resources. We shouldn't wait for this to happen before we realize what measures COULD have been taken instead.

We are seeing increased numbers of hospitalizations EVERYDAY. A covid admission to hospital can occupy a hospital bed for weeks/months. Given that...isn't hard to saturate a health care system if you aren't proactive. It has happened in other parts of the world already. We don't need to see it happen here because restaurants and bars need people to eat inside.

Each of those places are having a 2nd wave of positive cases that is resulting in far fewer deaths and hospitalizations relative to the number of cases. Why would you be worried or make the assumption that Ontario’s 2nd wave will be the complete opposite?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/


And of course, Sweden, who multiple people on this board were predicting would have tens of thousands of deaths by now have maintained a 7 day rolling average of between 0 and 3 deaths per day since August despite never having a lockdown and seeing an uptick in cases the last couple weeks

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/


Yes, Hospitalizations in Ontario have increased a bit during this increase in cases (although actually dropped day to day yesterday), but they are still only about a tenth of where they were in March. Until the hospitalizations or deaths show a significant uptick or start approaching where we were then, forcing businesses to close again or any sort of lockdown would cause much more damage than it would prevent imo, particularly given what is playing out in other countries during their 2nd waves.

[Caboclo]

You know who the true clowns are when you say something like 'Virtue Signalling' unironically...

the 4chan incels run rampant on here and it's really nauseating. could you chuds please support another team?

usually id agree, but this is not a case of blind misogyny....just look at the video.

Watch on YouTube

if that isnt virtue signalling, then i dont know what is. trudeaus pathetic

[NBA Sheady]

I would certainly hope you're wearing a mask indoors. If everyone wore a mask indoors, we likely wouldn't be seeing a second wave right now. You wear a mask primarily to protect others, not yourself.

I wear a mask indoors out of respect for others, not because I'm losing my mind over the possibility of getting infected. I get that wearing a mask helps so I do my part. Also this whole notion of wearing a mask 'to protect others but not yourself' never made sense to me. If you're wearing a mask to lower the spread of germs, virus' etc. to other people, then it follows that wearing a mask also protects you to a degree from getting those same germs, virus' etc. and especially so if you're wearing an N95 mask or better.

A cloth mask doesn't offer the wearer much protection but if everyone is wearing them the protection level is very high. They catch YOUR respiratory droplets.

Almost nobody in my neighborhood is wearing a mask so I wear a KN95. I was wearing N95's earlier and then my wife pointed out they have an exhaust valve.

[NBA Sheady]

They don't have anti-mask protests or covid-is-a-hoax believers. These types of people should be the ones to blame for the excessive measures.

It's tragically ironic that these same idiots are the ones complaining the loudest about these measures.

LOOK AT SWEDEN!!!

Yeah moron I'm looking at Sweden and they're top ten in the world in deaths per capita and are considerably worse off than any of their neighbors.

[Andrew_M08]

You know who the true clowns are when you say something like 'Virtue Signalling' unironically...

the 4chan incels run rampant on here and it's really nauseating. could you chuds please support another team?

Imagine getting mad at the term virtue signalling, but using the word incel unironically as an insult. What a clown.

[NBA Sheady]

My work is forcing a mandatory screening every morning now. Is this happening with you guys as well?

Most work places are doing this yes. Also at my work when I'm dealing with contractors I'm supposed to pre screen them for covid before sharing a job site with them. One of the questions is do you have diarrhea? I REFUSE to ask anyone on a job site if they have diarrhea. Also im not a doctor and do not feel comfortable asking another person medical questions.

Type it out and have a few copies and a pen handy.

[jaymeister15]

They don't have anti-mask protests or covid-is-a-hoax believers. These types of people should be the ones to blame for the excessive measures.

It's tragically ironic that these same idiots are the ones complaining the loudest about these measures.

LOOK AT SWEDEN!!!

Yeah moron I'm looking at Sweden and they're top ten in the world in deaths per capita and are considerably worse off than any of their neighbors.

I’m perfectly fine with wearing a mask and understand the virus is very real. Why do you feel the need to lump anyone who feels the lockdowns, particularly another one now given all we know, may be excessive and do more harm than good in with anti maskers or people that think it’s a hoax?

Sweden didn’t protect their long term care centres as well as they should have, much like here. 90% of the their deaths have been people over 70 years old. About 70% over the age of 80. Almost 75% of the total deaths have been long term care residents or home care users.

With a population of over 10 million, they have had a total of 76 people under the age of 50 pass away since the start of the pandemic while keeping schools and businesses open, and almost all of those people had other health issues. Ontario for comparison, with all of our lockdowns, has had 25 people under the age of 50 die. We won’t know for a while, if ever, but my guess is far more than that 50 person difference will pass away because of the lockdown itself due to delayed surgeries, screenings, mental health issues etc.

They have had a seven day rolling average of 0-4 deaths per day since august.

Many “experts” were saying back in April and May that their decisions would result in tens of thousands of deaths, but instead they’ve had a couple hundred total deaths over the last 3 months

Norway and Finland have about half the population with significantly lower population density. Comparing Sweden with those two countries is similar to comparing Ontario with Alberta.

If anything, Sweden has shown that the best plan of action should be to protect and isolate the elderly, particularly the long term care homes, and allow the rest of the population to continue on with work and schooling while keeping reasonable precautions in place (social distancing where possible, masks where needed etc)

But, sure, just keep calling anyone who feels different than you and thinks there might be some merit to how Sweden handled the pandemic a moron or idiot to prove your point.

[Fairview4Life]

You are arguing for mass community spread in order to “save” the economy or whatever when the government can also just print money or borrow at insanely low interest rates and pay people to stay home and we don’t have the community spread (oversimplified, but you get the point). It’s a stupid argument over the deficit.

The Sweden example is still stupid since they didn’t save their economy either. It’s massively dependent on exports. Why not use South Korea instead? Or Vietnam?

[hsb]

You are arguing for mass community spread in order to “save” the economy or whatever when the government can also just print money or borrow at insanely low interest rates and pay people to stay home and we don’t have the community spread (oversimplified, but you get the point). It’s a stupid argument over the deficit.

And of course, if people so desperately care about the deficit, why not do something that has immediate and long-term effects by targeting the widening gap in income inequality rather than stop an influx of money that actually helps people in need?

[jaymeister15]

You are arguing for mass community spread in order to “save” the economy or whatever when the government can also just print money or borrow at insanely low interest rates and pay people to stay home and we don’t have the community spread (oversimplified, but you get the point). It’s a stupid argument over the deficit.

The Sweden example is still stupid since they didn’t save their economy either. It’s massively dependent on exports. Why not use South Korea instead? Or Vietnam?

I didn’t bring up any other countries because my post was in response to the one calling anyone who thinks Sweden has done a good job handling things a moron.

Of course Sweden is still going to be affected by other countries lockdowns, but from a macro perspective, their economy is clearly in a better position to recover than most others in Europe. I don’t know why you still refuse to acknowledge that a lockdown is not good for either the economy as a whole, or on an individual level for the millions of people that have lost their employment income or businesses. You can argue that the perceived health benefits of the lockdown outweigh the economic consequences, but to argue that there are no negative long term economic consequences of shutting down the economy vs keeping it open is incorrect.

Sweden’s gross domestic product (GDP) tumbled 8.6% in the second quarter of the year, according to a flash estimate from the country’s statistics office on Wednesday, recording its largest single quarterly drop in modern history.

The record decline, broadly in line with consensus, was significantly worse than even the fourth quarter of 2008 when the Nordic country recorded a fall of 3.8% during the global financial crisis.

David Oxley, senior Europe economist at Capital Economics, told CNBC via email that Sweden’s sharp GDP contraction “confirms that it has not been immune to Covid, despite the government’s well-documented light-touch lockdown.”

“Nonetheless, the economic crunch over the first half of the year was in a different league entirely to the horror shows in southern Europe,” he added.

The euro zone’s economy contracted by 12.1% in the second quarter when compared to the previous quarter and by 11.9% across the broader European Union. The Spanish economy recorded the sharpest decline among member states when compared to the previous quarter, falling 18.5%.

It was followed by Portugal (-14.1%) and France (-13.8%), respectively, over the same period. Germany, often described as Europe’s growth engine, recorded a drop of 10.1% when compared to the first three months of the year.

Regardless, my post you are responding to didn’t have anything to do with the economic benefits. From a strictly health perspective, I believe Sweden’s approach of keeping businesses and schools opened while enforcing reasonable restrictions (similar to what we have currently) will show to be more beneficial in the long run than the lockdown approach. They have had a similar number of COVID deaths outside long term care homes as Ontario did without any of the negative health effects of the lockdown—massive surgery backlogs after stopping elective surgeries for months while waiting for a COVID hospitalization overflow that never came (with “elective” surgeries that included some types of cancer and heart surgeries), delayed screenings, mental health issues from isolation and lack of professional support during the lockdown, future physical and mental health issues caused by job/business loss with many of those job and business losses affecting people long after CERB ends,

At the end of the day, even if I disagreed with it, I can see the logic of the original lockdown that occurred in March. But, given all we know now, I don’t see the logic of the people calling for businesses, schools, etc to be closed again at this point unless we were to see a significant increase in hospitalizations or deaths instead of just an increase in cases.

[Westside Gunn]

You know who the true clowns are when you say something like 'Virtue Signalling' unironically...

the 4chan incels run rampant on here and it's really nauseating. could you chuds please support another team?

usually id agree, but this is not a case of blind misogyny....just look at the video.

Watch on YouTube

if that isnt virtue signalling, then i dont know what is. trudeaus pathetic

Ah man I like trudeau but gender equality is the least of the worries right now

whatever happened to talking about rising household debt, government debt, global debt, unemployment, increasing rents, business shutdowns etc

[jaymeister15]

And of course, if people so desperately care about the deficit, why not do something that has immediate and long-term effects by targeting the widening gap in income inequality rather than stop an influx of money that actually helps people in need?

You don’t think the lockdown as a whole will widen the gap between the haves and have nots more? Getting CERB for a few months isn’t going make it a net benefit for all the people that have lost their jobs or businesses for good.

I’m lucky enough to be in an industry that hasn’t been affected and my working situation has actually been improved by COVID now that I can work from home, but if I was in a different industry and lost my job due the lockdown, I’d probably prefer having a job again instead of getting a couple thousand a month for a few months.

I’m not sure if I read your post correctly, so I apologize if I misinterpreted it.

[GQStylin]

...because it's yet another way to die that didn't exist 8 months ago? Because these people would likely still be alive if not for covid? Because 1 million families or and the people around them don't have a loved one anymore? Do I really need to spell it out? I don't know about you, but I had enough in my life to worry about rather than another reason to worry about myself and the people around me.

The point that you either won't or purposely and repeatedly ignore is the vast majority of people who are dying by this virus are the very sick and least healthy and they would've died to anything if covid didn't come along. I'm not saying their lives don't matter, but we're talking about people who are nearing the end of their lives who are being kept alive thanks to modern medicine and around the clock care.

1 million people have died, but the vast majority of them fall into that category and you're advocating that we need to destroy the lives of millions of people to save them? That would be as dumb as having to choose between saving your 5 year old child and your 85 year old grand dad and you choose the grand dad. I wouldn't want to lose either in an ideal world, but if I could save only one I would choose my child because he has yet to live a life while my grand dad has lived a long one. Heck even your grand dad would tell your dumbass to save your child's life rather than his.

It didn't work out that way for Donald Trump despite him literally testing anyone who came close to him. We as regular people don't have that ability to test everyone around us. And aren't able to test every other day because there is huge backlog for people waiting for results as it is. I needed to wait 4 days for a result last week. Your solution is completely implausible. Once again...oversimplifying things. You really don't know what's going on out there, do you?

Did it ever occur to you that Trump is in constant contact with different people when he's out and about everyday which makes it easier for him to get the virus? Are those patients sitting in long term care homes going out and about and interacting with different people daily? I'm betting no. They're in a facility and they're staying there all day everyday so their chances of getting the virus is minimal if the people they come in contact with is only the workers who are taking care of them. Try again.

That is what they did and are doing...yet outbreaks are still happening. Tests are only a snapshot in time...and only good for the moment it is done. Wait for days for a result before being allowed to enter...nursing homes would have no one entering...including staff. Once again...a major backlog in testing is where your "solution" goes wrong.

The outbreaks this time around are much fewer and more importantly having gone through it once, LTC homes should by now have a plan of action so that they can protect their patients much better than the first time around. In other words there won't be nearly the number of deaths in LTC homes as we had a few months ago and there should be much fewer patients getting infected as well.

Having a nurse work longer than the 12 hour shifts he/she is already working right now? Seriously? Yes...in case you didn't know (which it looks like you don't)...nurses usually work 12 hour shifts.

I didn't say that should be the first solution to take. I'm saying that if things actually got as bad as it did a few months ago in LTC homes, then you could use this method to lower or even stop the spread in those homes. It doesn't have to be for months, but I don't think a week or so for a care worker is unreasonable when people from other parts of the world have done much more to save their patients. The point is there are many ways to lower the spread in LTC long before we should be deciding to shutdown society again. The fact that you can't even entertain using other methods before throwing even more people into financial distress shows how limited your problem solving abilities are.

You're right the majority of seniors don't live in long term care facilities and guess what? They DID NOT die by the thousands as a result of coming into contact with the outside world.

And you know that...how?

Because statistics? Are you that removed from reality that you can't do simple math and understand that the vast majority of people aren't affected by the virus? There are 6 MILLION people 65 yrs old or older in Canada and we have 9,500 virus deaths to date. Basic math tells you that 0.15% of that most vulnerable population has died so far. Yeah A LITTLE OVER ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of 6 million seniors have died to the virus so far and those are the most at risk group. Think about that.

We are seeing increased numbers of hospitalizations EVERYDAY. A covid admission to hospital can occupy a hospital bed for weeks/months. Given that...isn't hard to saturate a health care system if you aren't proactive. It has happened in other parts of the world already. We don't need to see it happen here because restaurants and bars need people to eat inside.

Where? Where is this supposed massive increase in hospital cases to correspond with the recent increase in virus cases?

When it comes to hospitalizations, in September, there have been less than 300 people in hospital across Canada due to COVID-19. The hospitalizations peaked in the second half of April when there were well over 2,000 people in hospital.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hospitalizations-steady-covid-19-increase-canada-1.5724107

But you don't care...right? It's all good as long as you can keep a bar/strip club open to idiots who don't see the bigger picture other than themselves and their own personal gratification.

This shows how absolutely ignorant you are and how little you care about the average person who are losing their livelihoods and can't make ends meet because they can't work and yet all you can talk about is people not being able to go to a bar for a drink or a restaurant to eat. How stupid. You keep telling yourself that's all this is about rather than putting increased debt and pressure on the poor and middle class who are taking major hits while many corporations like Amazon and Walmart are making huge profits during the pandemic.

[Fairview4Life]

What has been locked down and when.

[Fairview4Life]

Regardless, my post you are responding to didn’t have anything to do with the economic benefits. From a strictly health perspective, I believe Sweden’s approach of keeping businesses and schools opened while enforcing reasonable restrictions (similar to what we have currently) will show to be more beneficial in the long run than the lockdown approach. They have had a similar number of COVID deaths outside long term care homes as Ontario did without any of the negative health effects of the lockdown—massive surgery backlogs after stopping elective surgeries for months while waiting for a COVID hospitalization overflow that never came (with “elective” surgeries that included some types of cancer and heart surgeries), delayed screenings, mental health issues from isolation and lack of professional support during the lockdown, future physical and mental health issues caused by job/business loss with many of those job and business losses affecting people long after CERB ends,

At the end of the day, even if I disagreed with it, I can see the logic of the original lockdown that occurred in March. But, given all we know now, I don’t see the logic of the people calling for businesses, schools, etc to be closed again at this point unless we were to see a significant increase in hospitalizations or deaths instead of just an increase in cases.

The economic comparison is the only reason to bring up Sweden. That's the entire reason they went with their "light touch lockdown", and that blurb comparing them to southern Europe instead of their immediate nordic neighbours is an...interesting way of claiming their light touch lockdown was a success, to say the least. Arguing that there will be better health outcomes by allowing the virus to spread more freely in the population is just plain bizarre. Especially considering that they have had significantly worse health outcomes to date.

What we have seen is that when cases go up, hospitalizations and deaths follow. Waiting for the hospitalizations and deaths to go up before "locking things down" is silly. Nothing has changed with how the virus spreads. We know that crowds indoors with poor ventilation are like petri dishes. When cases start rising, shut those places down. We also still have no idea what the long term effects of being infected are, and there have been a slew of worrying reports about heart and lung problems, not just the alive/dead binary.

The fact you apparently have to wait for hours to get a test and then days to get the results is a far bigger problem than not being able to go to a restaurant. Get your cases way down, screen the hell out of people, and you too can live like an Atlantic Canadian.

[mtcan]

The point that you either won't or purposely and repeatedly ignore is the vast majority of people who are dying by this virus are the very sick and least healthy and they would've died to anything if covid didn't come along. I'm not saying their lives don't matter, but we're talking about people who are nearing the end of their lives who are being kept alive thanks to modern medicine and around the clock care.

1 million people have died, but the vast majority of them fall into that category and you're advocating that we need to destroy the lives of millions of people to save them? That would be as dumb as having to choose between saving your 5 year old child and your 85 year old grand dad and you choose the grand dad. I wouldn't want to lose either in an ideal world, but if I could save only one I would choose my child because he has yet to live a life while my grand dad has lived a long one. Heck even your grand dad would tell your dumbass to save your child's life rather than his.

1 million people is still 1 million people. Some of those million people had no preexisting health conditions...some were first responders and health care professionals as well...but I'm not really interested in distinguishing because that's not the point. 1 million is 1 million. If you'd rather sacrifice the sick for the sake of saving your business...well your business isn't worth saving.

Did it ever occur to you that Trump is in constant contact with different people when he's out and about everyday which makes it easier for him to get the virus? Are those patients sitting in long term care homes going out and about and interacting with different people daily? I'm betting no. They're in a facility and they're staying there all day everyday so their chances of getting the virus is minimal if the people they come in contact with is only the workers who are taking care of them. Try again.

You missed my point completely. Your point was to swab everyone around you...and I'm saying that it's not possible for regular people. Trump gets tested every day. Everyone he comes in contact with needs to be swabbed before getting close to him. It didn't save him from getting covid because ultimately...you may test negative one day but positive the next day. So your idea is not in the realm of possibility and it isn't practical. Period. You're not on topic here.

The outbreaks this time around are much fewer and more importantly having gone through it once, LTC homes should by now have a plan of action so that they can protect their patients much better than the first time around. In other words there won't be nearly the number of deaths in LTC homes as we had a few months ago and there should be much fewer patients getting infected as well.

I didn't say that should be the first solution to take. I'm saying that if things actually got as bad as it did a few months ago in LTC homes, then you could use this method to lower or even stop the spread in those homes. It doesn't have to be for months, but I don't think a week or so for a care worker is unreasonable when people from other parts of the world have done much more to save their patients. The point is there are many ways to lower the spread in LTC long before we should be deciding to shutdown society again. The fact that you can't even entertain using other methods before throwing even more people into financial distress shows how limited your problem solving abilities are.

Once again...not a plausible and logical solution. Period.

Because statistics? Are you that removed from reality that you can't do simple math and understand that the vast majority of people aren't affected by the virus? There are 6 MILLION people 65 yrs old or older in Canada and we have 9,500 virus deaths to date. Basic math tells you that 0.15% of that most vulnerable population has died so far. Yeah A LITTLE OVER ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of 6 million seniors have died to the virus so far and those are the most at risk group. Think about that.

Yes..9500 deaths is not bad for the first wave. We could have been better off...but we aren't doing terribly. However...this didn't happen because by accident. This happened as a result of public health measures. And now our case counts have surpassed those at the height of the first wave. And once again...hospitalizations are going up whereas they were flat in the summer. Time to start looking at public health measures again or we risk death numbers even worse than 9500 in the first 7 months. We don't have a major death rate BECAUSE of public health measures.

Where? Where is this supposed massive increase in hospital cases to correspond with the recent increase in virus cases?
When it comes to hospitalizations, in September, there have been less than 300 people in hospital across Canada due to COVID-19. The hospitalizations peaked in the second half of April when there were well over 2,000 people in hospital.

Looking at Ontario alone...the hospitalization numbers ARE going up. We were averaging 30 hospitalized patients throughout the summer. We are at 169 as of today...and it's only October. It's more than a 5 fold increase in a month and a half. Numbers will continue to go higher as the days and weeks pass. We obviously aren't at capacity...but we don't want to get even close to that. Because that's when tough decisions will need to be made about who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. That's when elective surgeries get cancelled because of overcrowding. We don't want that. It's in our best interest for that not to spike. But once again...it's just October.

This shows how absolutely ignorant you are and how little you care about the average person who are losing their livelihoods and can't make ends meet because they can't work and yet all you can talk about is people not being able to go to a bar for a drink or a restaurant to eat. How stupid. You keep telling yourself that's all this is about rather than putting increased debt and pressure on the poor and middle class who are taking major hits while many corporations like Amazon and Walmart are making huge profits during the pandemic.

Close the restaurants and bars to indoor service (go ahead and offer takeout). Close the night clubs and strip clubs. No big weddings or parties. That's what I call restrictive measures for now. If this is what causes "millions" of lost livelihoods...so be it. If people (mostly young people) would do what they are told by respecting masking and social distancing rules...maybe we wouldn't need to do this but clearly they aren't getting the message. I don't think most retail stores need to be closed unless they too are not taking social distancing measures to heart. To be clear...that is my position.